So do you tune your musical instrument with an auto tuner or with a tuning fork/piano note?
Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?
It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
1,423 responses
I think he’s doing a disservice to the finer art of audio by teaching that measurements are gospel. Basic measurements are a convenience and are a good starting point, but are not the entire answer. Machines simply can’t measure the same subtle nuances that human ears can hear. Listening a skill that can and should be learned and honed. Relying solely on measurements squelches listening skills, and it equates to a paint by numbers result. Double blind testing has limited value too, because it can’t replace the benefit of long term listening sessions on your own system in your own space. Especially if the differences are subtle.
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ASR is clickbait. There is a lot of confirmation bias out there but ASR did not address that. Too many people post the arguments their salesmen used to sell them an expensive peice of equipment like it is fact. Bottom line is you need to learn to do your own listening and evaluation. For me it involves going back and forth after hours or days of listening in each pass. Too many times "different" is interpreted as "better". "yes, I can hear a difference" but you need to go back and forth with lots of different music to figure out what the subtlties are and was different better or worse. Jerry |
It's good to read ASR and the measurements. About changing opinions - I think he confirmed it. I stopped visiting that site once I saw that people who fell for his measurements, purchased the equipment, only to find them lifeless or unmusical. So yes, measurements are good starting point. But they don't tell you everything - he confirmed my opinion on that. |
There are hundreds of posts there. This is like asking if the New York Times changed my opinion about anything. He has measured many things and explained many things. What he infers from these facts sometimes hits and sometimes misses, for me. Claims here that he is a "clown" or some kind of Svengali just betray dogmatism and intolerance. He is a serious person with a point of view. Deal with it. |
Once. It was a mistake. Quickly returned back to my own testing and listening. Sure, use it as basic guidelines to get ideas on early measurements. However, those measurements may not capture everything you are looking for. At the end of the day, do your own listening too, with your ears, realizing you may hear differently. Why you may decide and enjoy most is not always reflected in graphs. |
I tune my guitar with an electronic tuner to begin with, then make further adjustments by ear. I research gear specs and read reviews when in upgrade mode. The choice to buy or not buy is based upon hearing the component(s) in my room. |
This is not an uncommon occurrence it seems. Some have been satisfied with the components they have rated high. Others not so much. The priority seems to be great test measurements and inexpensive product price. Actual listening evaluations from people posting there are often mocked and treated dismissively. If @chayro has found some meaningful value from the ASR site, good for him. Experiences with their approach/concept surely will vary. Charles |
Making one’s writing perfectly clear is not an easy thing. Most people here are subjectivists - if it sounds good, it is good. I include myself firmly in that camp. But was there not a sliver of information at ASR you found valuable or at least interesting that made you question the way you view any aspect of audio? Maybe not. |
It’s impossible to like everyone and Amir sure seems like a clown to me. I think I’m not alone in forming that impression of him.
He doesn’t seem serious to me and I don’t have to deal with him or any of his self-serving, self-promoting YouTube brethren. |
My point was: do you trust your ears or do you trust a measuring device? Not saying either is right or wrong. I’m an engineer and a musician (although the only thing I have played the last few decades is my stereo). So I do a mix of both myself. But this guy seems to think he can measure everything with an analyzer. Reminds me of someone with a hammer. To that person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. |
For me measurements are only 10% of what I use to evaluate a hi-fi purchase. It's the same as 0-60 times for evaluating an automobile purchase. The 0-60 times tell you nothing about how it gets those times. Is it a screaming small bore motor with very peaky power or a huge big block that just muscles it's way to the same time? Hearing and feeling is more important than a raw measurement. Guys like Amir have no room for the art of audio reproduction. |
I have made decisions based on their gear measurements. Usually, eliminating gear I had some interest in. I was about to buy the Okto DAC8 based on their favorable comments on it, instead I decided to get the worst measuring Schitt Yggi+ (Less is More) of the 3 Yggi+'s. Very happy with that move, though the Okto DAC8 had the better connectivity for my needs. I take all opinions and feedback and marinade it in the brain and then execute some plan. Amir is another data point.
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@hilde45 : +1! Lot of Amir haters here on Agon! What I find interesting are the measurements that reveal how poorly designed some products are! Products that are highly praised by the golden-ear crowd - like the Chord M-Scaler and the Magnepan LRS speaker. Woe to the buyers of the LRS! The measurements and Amir's listening test show this speaker to be a real turkey and a coloration-generator far from neutral to the source!
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Hi @hilde45 I’d say @cleeds raised a serious question. What do you specifically find serious about Amir’s approach? I inquire with sincerity. Charles |
I could not care less for the opinions based on the measurements. Nor from anyone thats sticks their nose in the air toward anyone who doesn’t spend $5000-$20000 on cables. Whether something sounds good, to my ears, my brain, in my room at the volume I want, at a price I am comfortable with, is all that matters to me. “Golden ear” audiophools and sterile measurements crowd both be damned. |
When I first heard some folks quote his site. I dug deep into reading review after review and was horrified at his approach and conclusions. Not for me, it is simple to see all the flaws. But for newcomers to the pursuit.
I think in the beginning most folks new to audio will start by looking at specs and think this is the way to evaluate sound quality (once they moved out of features and function counting as an evaluation tool). This could turn off so many folks new to audio by influencing them to buy dry, dead, terrible sounding equipment and never experiencing real high end. It is a real shame. |
Without the internet, we wouldn't be talking about him. He and his audience are a product of our times and I'm old school enough to recognize a Johnny Come Lately with an agenda. He's really no different than an audio reviewer who sized up the playing field and saw an unoccupied space to settle down in. Heck, everyone's got to make a living. What upsets some is that he has his own belief system that contradicts most of ours. That's not a knock but just calling it like I see it. He's just one of many opinions and like elbows, we all have them. How much credence you give him and let it affect you, is on you. All the best, |
Measurements of gear versus listening the gear... We need the two.... The problem is Amir school and the subjectivist audiophile insist the two of them on the gear "magical qualities"; by virtue of their optimal standards measurement with Amir who swear only by that, and by virtue of the listening personal subjective experience with the Subjectivist who swear only by that ... What is the common factor between the two factions at war to define "good sound quality" : it is the the gear design and branded name , measured and verified and officially stamped by pope Amir or promoted, as listened to, by subjective audiophile reviewers...
Myself i know that what define "good sound quality experience" for sure ask for rightfully designed gear to begin with for sure but it is ESSENTIALLY acoustic and psycho acoustic speakers/room specific relation ... Nothing else.... Sorry for the measuring fads or for the costlier brand products obsession of some audiophiles... They are not even wrong, they are deluded by an half truth, out of acoustic experience and experiments...
«It is not the tissu nor the way it is woven so much as the way you dress a specific body»-- Groucho Marx learning craft 🤓 |
Charyo asked for opinion and I provided mine. I did not ask for any opinion on my response. Please decide what you all want from the thread, since it was clearly mentioned not to pile on, and I did not do that to OP. |
To answer specifically the OP question... Only Dr. Gorike an acoustician change my mind about headphones... Measurements by Amir or positive reviews could not...They can be useful and indicative in some case but NEVER decisive especially separately ... Why ? Because as for my speakers and amplifier and dac only the relation between them matter FOR the end goal of their integration to my room by acoustic... In the same way the headphone synergetical association with dac and amplifier matter too but the acoustic properties of the headphone matter even more... Anyway the only way to BYPASS room acoustic or headphones with no acoustic content in the shell is to try Dr. Choueri BACCH filters for "virtual toom acoustic" the most revol;utionay dac ever... Read about it, it is amazing that this revolution is not well known ... ...Then once acoustic is done right we dont need measurements or subjective reviews anymore and we dont need upgrades...
«In audio cooking, acoustic is the steak and the experience , the gear is the cooking itself with the spicing»--Groucho Marx learning his craft 🤓
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I think this verification of industry standards is the positive side of Amir...You are right...But i dont think that better measurements alone is enough to reach very good audiophile optimal listening experience ... But people are short sightened by their ideology be it technology or any other one, and objectivist as subjectivist are deluding themselves when they isolate from one another ...People love to hate someone or something... Thats explain much of everything on the actual earth situation if we add the power greed for control by some... ...
In audio if we come back to the subject matter, they all forget acoustic as the main powerful factor...Astounding when we know that audiophile experience is only EXPLAINED at the end by psycho-acoustic...Even change in electronic design are ultimately guided by acoustic results...
«Purchasing is never rational most of the times ; and most of the times irrational especially when we buy a bride » -- Groucho Marx puchasing his amplifier 🤓 |
@ghdprentice +1! When I first started reading this thread, I was thinking about writing virtually the same post. I think ASR is doing a significant disservice to our hobby by convincing many new to the hobby that measurements are all that matters. i think measurements are a helpful tool for development and an invaluable tool for manufacturing (ensuring unit to unit consistency), but the simplistic measurements done by Amir are all but worthless for determining what products will work well in my own system. To be honest, I have not visited the site in the last year or so since I did not want to do anything that might improve their visibility to new prospective audiophiles. |
To answer the OP question: a resounding NO. But that’s just me.
What you guys don’t realize (or perhaps you do 😉), this thread does one thing: more (free) advertising for Amir. And that’s exactly what prominent YouTubers want, free publicity. As they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity
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Having recently spent a considerable sum ($35k) to put a nice system together, I had the itch to spend a few thousand on a power conditioner, until I watched a few of Amir's videos on YouTube. Right or wrong, I never pulled the trigger and have stayed with my $99 Audioquest power strip. My power amp and sub are connected straight into the wall. The noise floor has been quiet from day 1, so I convinced myself that I didn't have a problem to solve. Who knows what the future holds? |
ASR hasn't just changed my mind on things such as the importance of measurements, the respect for the science of audio (Toole, Olive, Choueri, Barton, Shaw etc), the acknowledgment of the work done by professional broadcasting manufacturers (Genelec, KEF, Neumann etc) it's also changed the way more and more reviewers are now recognising the increasing need to back up their subjective opinions with hard science.
Most I think he should get some thanks for fighting the industry.
Absolutely he should. Unlike almost virtually every other reviewer he relies almost solely upon the goodwill and kind donations of his readers. The ASR forum has certainly changed the way we look at audio and there's no going back now. Of course some manufacturers and dealers will always be less than pleased with his conclusions, and we should expect that as they are trying to push product. Selling is their business - numbers, units, turnover, dollars, pounds etc. However, for us the potential consumer, it's all good news. Highly detailed and backed up with a generous presentation courtesy of the Klippel NFS technology. Technology that the likes of Ascend Acoustics are now employing in the development of future loudspeakers
Lastly, lest we forget, Amir nearly always includes his own listening impressions at the end of each review.
What's not to like? |
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Name dropping leaders in their audio fields with Amir does a disservice to them. They used measurements to create and ensure great audio products whereas Amir uses measurements to tear them down. Not even close to the same thing. It's like citing the science and work behind the internet and saying Elmo is a genius. All the best, |
Who is "we"? How has ASR changed audio? Do you think he was the first to take measurements?
If you’re not listening to every piece you measure, you have no way of correlating measurements with sonic results. That he can’t be bothered to listen to everything he measures speaks volumes about him, and his opinion of himself. |
It’s just data, so my answer is no. No different than other reviewers, Amir has his own bias. Yet, some here seem to freak out at the mention of his name. Earlier this year, Amir gave a positive review to the Hypex NCx500 Class D Amplifier. This is likely to cause at least a few cases of internal consternation in people who have been waiting for a good-sounding, lower priced, class D amplifier, yet can’t bring themselves to purchase anything recommended by Amir. |
I think that Amir, in a round about way, reminds us of how powerful our biases are. My friend’s 28 year old daughter loves sneakers. She will see someone wearing a certain pair and salivate over them because she knows the back story. I don’t know the back story, so i just I just see an another pair of sneakers. It just reminds me of how much our brain affects what we believe is important. I don’t know if it’s possible to separate them. |
@chayro "I think that Amir, in a round about way, reminds us of how powerful our biases are." This is true. The notion that subjective listening is not without serious problems is something that ASR may take too self-righteously, but it is part of science to realize that careful analysis requires self-scrutiny and scrutiny of others "tastes." Not baseless suspicion but a critical attitude. @jasonbourne71 We agree that there is something of value in the enormous amount of work that Amir has put into his site. @charles1dad I have found many, many things of value there. Descriptions of products, tests, measurements, photos, and other information.Some have decided that because they don’t agree with his product conclusions or his disposition toward measurement and against listening tests (as too subjective) there is nothing at all there. This is the kind of partisanship that drives people apart and -- perhaps more important -- keeps us from learning from the valuable parts of what others turn up. FYI, I posted my review of the Ascend speakers at ASR and some dismissed it because there were no measurements. Very discriminatory against my approach. But others on the site jumped in to defend me, even though it was not measurement based. So, there are a variety of people at ASR, I found. |
"I think he’s doing a disservice to the finer art of audio by teaching that measurements are gospel. Basic measurements are a convenience and are a good starting point, but are not the entire answer." The above represents my point of view.
He has an agenda, and that is to promote his site. I also think he is somewhat unethical. He promotes products that are poorly built just because they measure well.. Look at the number of people on his site who complain of Topping products failing or not working as they should, yet Amir claims it is not his responsibility to look at the quality, just the measurement. I regard this as unethical; if you praise or recommend a piece of equipment as a reviewer you should look at all aspects, not just measurements that may or may not have value. His site is funny though, especially when some of the minions get wound up. |
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Thank you for your reply to my inquiry. You find value via the ASR site and I respect that. It doesn't work for me but obviously we're all different. I'm glad that you can find worthwhile utilization with their format. Best wishes to you. Charles |
Amir has not changed my mind about anything for several reasons. 1. Have always used measurements as a starting point only. Amir provides numerous measurements, a good thing, but not the full and complete picture. 2. Amir claims he relies on settled science and follows a scientific process. He is making measurements by following a process. However, a true scientific process involves identifying, managing, and documenting many more factors and conditions than Amir ever considers. We are talking about an Audio Hobby, so going full blown science is not required. Which would be just fine if Amir did not promote himself so vigorously as an authority with all the "correct" answers. 3. Amir promotes "cheap" but well measuring equipment as performing just as well as costlier well measuring equipment. Again, OK on its face if presented as a value proposition. Not OK when buyers that prefer to spend more for performance, quality, and reliability are labeled as audiofools, or worse. Not a winning strategy to change opinions. |
