Maybe if everyone activate the manners that I’m assuming all have been taught are an asset when dealing with others this would go better.
Otherwise there may be nothing more of value to see here.
Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?
It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
Showing 50 responses by mapman
Fwiw I use name brand speaker wires with batteries on them and gotta say it’s one tweak I never have heard a difference with. But it’s OK, In my defense, I bought them used for a reasonable price versus the competition. They work fine and sound good because my system ain’t bad otherwise so no need to measure…they get the job done. Glad I didn’t pay top dollar new though. I might have felt a little silly then. |
I stay out of arguments where two sides take absolute counter stances and are unwilling to address the ultimate truth that the correct answer usually lies somewhere in between. The only way to find it is to take all factors into consideration. It’s very sad to me that we live in such a politically polarized environment these days that people are conditioned to focus on grievances rather than solutions. It does not bode well for the future. How about everyone just say they are sorry If you want to solve the question of is a better than b get together in a room armed with ALL the relevant data and put a and b to the ultimate listening test and talk it out about what you hear and why. Metrics alone are very often abused rather than used properly. It takes some know how to get things right. Not an easy task. But if the data is correct two people should be able to get in a room and help validate it. The things is all people can do on a forum is talk and share information . You can’t hear a dam thing! Certainly not on the ultimate hifi. So there are limits. Take what others have to offer with civility, not anger. Repeating something over and over hoping the other guy finally gets it is not a good strategy. If it’s not working just say your piece and move on. None of this stuff is really all that important anyhoo in the grand scheme of things. Just saying….
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I can only speak for myself but the problem at hand for most here on this thread I think is how to best choose what to buy. Measurements are very useful for that. Explaining why human hearing is so complex is totally useless towards that end. It is useful to understand how human hearing works to help better understand why we hear what we do. But these are two totally different use cases. What is of value always depends on context. So there really should be no debate. Two totally different sets of information used for two different but related purposes. Best to understand it all but no point in arguing one versus the other. One topic at a time please! |
@thyname I make no money posting. But many here do. They have products and services to sell and there are no forum rules against vendors posting here. But. Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales. I’d surmise the forum is deemed a positive tool towards that end by allowing people to discuss things related to the things sold. Amir’s site is one of many resources buyers have at their disposal to help make better informed decisions. |
I think it’s pretty pointless to argue against use of measurements to establish what is good sound reproduction. Note that good sound reproduction is different than good sound. One is objective the other subjective. It’s also true that metrics alone do not tell the whole story. They are capable of getting things right but are often applied incorrectly or incompletely. It’s worth arguing that case by case but not that metrics are always the whole story or that they are of no value. It’s really not so complicated to understand. I find much of the content of this thread pretty useless. Maybe Amir’s site has more to offer. I’ll have to check it out more often. |
It’s ok to make money if you are offering a service or product of value. That’s determined by the masses not any single handful of detractors.
It’s OK to not like someone. That’s a personal choice, but by posting here realize one is serving the purpose of providing free publicity. Not the first time someone has come here to help make a buck. In fact that’s what this site is for! The forum exists solely for that purpose. I have no problem with it as long as the vendor is reasonably transparent and honest about why they are here. Not always the case! |
@amir_asr wondering if there are products you like to listen to that didn’t measure well? Does what you actually enjoy listening to always correlate to good metrics? BTW thanks for spending some time here. I know it can be a tough crowd sometimes. Your site is very impressive and indicates a lot of time and hard work spent trying to put some real parameters around products that people might actually be able to afford. I think that is a valuable service and wish more people did it. You seem to have a lot of dedication to what you do which is admirable. I suspect many truly interested in learning appreciate what you do. FBOFW. Nobody is perfect but striving for excellence is something that should be valued not put down. BTW I also appreciate your focus on issues discussed. No personal attacks. That makes a world of difference in regards to adding value. |
@somethingsomethingaudio no doubt style does matter when dealing with others. A little humbleness can go a long way. Same for having a sense of humor.
I am a senior level engineer myself and work with obsessed technical people like Amir all the time. Everyone is different though. Respect for others is a must in the corporate world because it’s typically a team effort that results in success. But the really good technical people often develop oversized egos to go along with it that can be a hindrance. But the smart ones learn over time and get it. In the end it’s the results that matter most. If one works for oneself it’s less of an issue as long as the results are there. You can do as you please as long as the results are there. |
Also I gotta admit that as a technical person myself nonsensical or merely extravagant claims with nothing but bravado and marketing hype bug the heck out of me. Happens here all the time. As long as people are civil I accept it as their right and take it for what it’s worth. But it does bug the heck out of me because I do care about the technical details. Tolerance is a good thing. Those with total confidence in their convictions won’t fear the opinions of others. I do get that! But hey again nobody is perfect and I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. FBOFW.
It’s always a good idea to have unbiased sources confirm scientific or technical findings. Data presented by just one guy may not be accurate for many reasons. So take it with a grain of salt FWIW. |
I have a little Fosi integrated Amp in one of my setups that I have posted about here in that it cost a pittance and turned out to be a huge overperformer driving my older kef ls50s very well which is not a trivial task. I have had some highly touted much costlier amps fail miserably at that in the past. I saw a review of a Fosi amp on asr site. Amir measured it and gave it a thumbs up. So we both agreed at least about Fosi amps in general. No minds changed |
@mahgister I get it. It's OK to disagree. Peace! |
BTW I read the posts on asr forum regarding Ohm Walsh speakers. Interesting comments from users there but frankly one will learn a lot more about those RIGHT HERE than there. At least so far. Maybe Amir will put those to the test someday. Not that it matters. Many Ohm users out there from over many years that are happy and they know it. Not sure what else they need to know really. |
Fact is the term audiophile has gotten a very bad rap over the years. The story is always how audiophiles seem to draw conclusions that can’t be substantiated by the data. I prefer the term hifi enthusiast. It’s the enthusiasm that yields the results in many cases. They synthesize truths from all the information available, not just numbers. The truths may relate to good sound which is subjective or good measured sound which is objective and Amir’s forte. Or both. No reason to just limit one’s information to numbers, though discounting valid numbers totally is probably not very constructive.
Different strokes. More than one way to skin the cat? Did I miss any appropriate cliches? |
@nevada_matt of course everyone is entitled to like what they like based on personal preferences. Personal preferences are useful things for others to consider but facts and personal preferences are two different things. It’s the facts that help people decide what to buy because each has their own different personal preferences. It’s all good. |
Anytime a review includes not just the numbers but the reviewers opinions based on using the product that is always best. Stereophile does that, though I do think that inexpensive products that measure well undermine their business model so there is that. ASR does seem to fill a valuable niche in that regard. People could save a lot of money if the numbers are not lying. The Fosi amps available on Amazon I mentioned above are a very good example of that in my experience. |
It doesn’t make sense to me that someone who bases everything on numbers and metrics would have any need to censure others armed mainly with words. Unless there is bad behavior involved. That needs to be addressed in all cases, though increasingly these days it is not. Forum rules should cover what constitutes bad behavior. If not that is an omission and should be fixed. |
How about people who want to measure measure and people who want to feel feel. Neither is a crime and it makes everyone happy which should really be the only goal. Otherwise the result is a thread like this where people just double down on their positions and argue. Gets old fast. ”She has illusion and you have reality. May you find your way to be as pleasant!” |
+1 @milpai |
My suggestion to Amir would be to learn to tailor the message to the audience. search posts by user almarg who posted here for many years. Al was a technical guy with tremendous technical knowledge and a lawyer. Not to forget most importantly a model gentleman. He knew how to present his technical cases to the jury effectively and was beloved here for it.
We need more gentlemen like Almarg these days everywhere Beating people over the head with things seems to be more the style these days and people are getting tired of it Just trying to help. Almarg set a very high bar to try and match.
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Amir seems to me to mostly address relevant issues. Seems he is the one being attacked first and he seems to show restraint on his responses trying to stick to the issues. That’s just my take. He is bringing a lot of good information to the table whether one cares or not. We need more of that not less. Technology is the key to good sound and it doesn’t just happen by magic. |
Well first it’s never a good idea to speak for everyone.
Do I believe he does this out of the goodness of his heart and no monetary reward involved? Please…. He provides a service and has a business model for it. Good for him! If I can find a product that measures as well as some other more expensive one that measures similarly I am all ears. That is valuable information! Take it or leave it. Everyone gets to decide.
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I’m keeping score on the thread. You get a point if you offer up information that helps people. Hate to say it but Amir is slaughtering all at this point. Not liking someone’s style is a swing and miss. No style points either. Just telling it like I see it using my own measures for things that add value and things that do not. No doubt many will disagree and that’s all alright. |
@amir_asr need to point out I did not say what you have me quoted as saying above. I think you made a mistake there. |
Fwiw I recently applied a packaged convolution filter in Roon DSP for my Sennheiser Momentum headphones and the results are staggering. Modern DSP processing done right is a very powerful tool indeed. The results push me closer to carving out time to try and create my own convolution filters for my various rooms at home. It’s more work and just a little cost to create your own. You just need a decent mike that costs ~130 dollars and free software to create the filter. I’m very confident that could be one of the best $130 I could spend currently for better sound.
I use some minimal room treatments on some rooms currently and none in others where not conducive.
To thoroughly treat most rooms with commercial treatment could cost thousands of dollars to do right. Like Amir I do furnish and set up my rooms wherever possible for better acoustics. Much more cost effective and practical in many cases where one might not have a totally dedicated “listening room”.
I listen in many rooms many different ways all the time. That’s not even including 5 pair of decent quality headphones. I want to hear it all. Variety is the spice of life. That’s just me. |
@thyname Amir seems to be a pretty smart and successful guy. Is that what you are mocking? |
I’m keeping tabs on products I own that he has reviewed. Chord Mojo and Fosi amp are winners. My spare older NOS mhdt dac maybe not so much but mine is SS and not tube. I had a tube mhdt also for awhile but unloaded it. Sound was nice and different but not to my liking as much. I bet it measures horribly. That’s its charm! So he hasn’t hurt my feelings too much (so far). |
@kevn if you know a better approach maybe there is big bucks and satisfaction similarly in it for you if you were to take it to market and offer it as a competing or complementary service, if you have not already done so. I personally am all ears when someone can help me make better informed buying decisions. |
That’s the bottom line. Bingo! More people need to do that if they care enough rather than fuss about it. Amir’s act shouldn’t be too hard to follow for someone who is qualified and has the resources needed. I suspect this is the motivation behind a lot of the darts thrown. Just follow the money. |