Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

As Amir pointed out above he gives his recommendation based on the review because people asked him to.

Also I am not a member and have not tried but as he indicated readers appear to be able to vote on each review to let their opinion be known. 

Maybe the site was more dictatorial in the past but does not appear to be  currently. 

Do people even bother to determine the facts about anything anymore before casting stones?

Over and out.  

Maybe if everyone activate the manners that I’m assuming all have been taught are an asset when dealing with others this would go better.  
 

Otherwise there may be nothing more of value to see here.  
 

Anyhow in conclusion, no I don’t think Amir has changed my mind about anything. I have found useful information on his site that will help my decision making when buying though and look forward to what all he might review in the future. He is a reviewing machine for sure. The metrics say he produces more reviews faster than most anyone else and I respect that as long as the quality does not take a back seat..

@mahgister no problem.   So much talk here who can properly synthesize it all?  So far I’d say nobody.  Who has the time?

@mahgister I didn’t say you were anti science. Why did you infer that?

Also of course I know here is more to it than a handful of electrical metrics.

I am saying that it’s not a competition with a winner and a loser. You can do things your way and Amir his and others will each judge the value of the science presented. That’s how science works.

@nonoise 

My point is many espouse personal freedom but only for themselves.  
 

Also it’s not a good thing when science  becomes the enemy.  
 

@mahgister

Every body has a brain. Some are unfortunate and may have medical conditions. That”s not their fault. Others have a brain and value learning. Others do not. One’s values help determine how and what is learned. Amir is laser tuned on scientific measurements. You on philosophy, embedding and now psycho acoustics and how that affects what one hears. It’s all good. The point is you and Amir both WANT to learn and you each have your way. Good. Yay! Bravo! Do your thing!

The problem is some have perfectly good brains but have been conditioned to devalue learning including in science and other fields . All the while reaping the benefits of what other smart people learned and they didn’t . Think about it! Learning is a core value in some cultures In others increasingly learning is the enemy! We all are human and have our biases and limitations. Some learn to learn and others fight it tooth and nail and want to rely on “instincts” only. I respect that As long as one is not trying to obstruct others from doing their thing their way however that may add value.

End schpiell….

That’s all.

So what we have is people standing up for individual choice and saying I don’t care about measurements, I’ll do it my way. Ok fine! That’s how it should be.

But then you have a guy who tries to scientifically measure things and that’s his way. He also has a website to publish the info and many choose to value that because they value science.

But now the guy who chooses science is chastised for doing it his way He can do more than most anyone in this area and collect technical data that can help people make decisions but the “libertarians” can’t handle THAT guy deciding for himself how to do things because they don’t like the way he does things. His different view especially if based on science makes him the enemy

This is a common phenomena that we witness everyday on the internet, talk shows etc. people expect the right for themselves to be free and do it their way but not the people they disagree with. That’s being a hypocrite with a capital H .

The fact is many who want freedom for themselves can’t handle when others who are different want the same freedom. They think they are right and other guy wrong so he becomes the enemy and must be stopped.

Take note. Hypocritical libertarians vilifying others with different values are everywhere. Politicians know this and take full advantage.

Just saying. Just having different values on how to value hifi gear is enough to get people triggered

Yes Amir believes in his way and tries to convince others he is right. But I don’t see any name calling, back handed personal insults or other personal slurs coming from him . Yes he thinks he is right and tries to validate his stance. Nothing wrong with that . You can also argue an eye for an eye, but the personal attacks appear to be one way. The unhappy libertarians attack armed with slurs, insults and no regard for misinformation.

It’s so sad and petty. Grow up people. We can all do better. Maybe be a true libertarian who value the freedom of all decent hard working people, not just themselves. Narcissism seems to come into play here and that is always bad for everyone else in the end.

Do you really “Know Your Enemy”? When the enemy is science we have a big big problem.

Ok @thyname you are free to try on pants without considering sizes. I’m sure it all turns out well in the end. 😉. See what I did there?

@thyname  I did say auditioning provides useful information as well so it appears you are selectively quoting to make your case.  Do you work in the media?  😉

@thyname I respect and see value in what he does that’s all.  Call it what you will.  He seems competent in what he does and is no more egotistical than many talented engineers I have worked with over the years.  So he does not bother me.  yMMv. 

@kevn there is only one way to find shortcuts when comparing products. That is of course to do the homework and understand what the differences really are. That ‘s what measurements provide. In a simple case analogy it’s how you decide what pair of pants will fit. You look at the size indicated which is determined by measurements. The difference with good sound is it is of course much harder to properly assess the measurements. Some can and some cannot. That’s where recommendations from someone who you trust come in. You either trust them or not. That’s your choice.

So thankfully it is not just a total crap shoot. You can obtain info that helps including auditioning yourself and specs or measurements.

Now if you have yet another paradigm that is not merely theoretical but can be practically applied then you are on to something. I wish you luck! A better understanding of em fields can’t hurt as long as the understanding is based on facts and not marketing propoganda or hearsay.

@anome I say test that sucker for that asking price but there are surely a few audiophiles out there just looking for the next great toy that don’t care if it works as advertised.

Ironically for most any common household item or even a car they might care. Toys are toys. Some adult toys just cost a lot of money for rights of ownership.

@kevn if you know a better approach maybe there is big bucks and satisfaction similarly in it for you if you were to take it to market and offer it as a competing or complementary service, if you have not already done so. I personally am  all ears when someone can help me make better informed buying decisions.

It’s a fair question to ask Amir what he has learned of value from this thread?

given the history and the current state of the industry, rife with snake oil, pushing manufacturers to back up their claims is 100% a good thing.

That’s the bottom line. Bingo! More people need to do that if they care enough rather than fuss about it. Amir’s act shouldn’t be too hard to follow for someone who is qualified and has the resources needed. I suspect this is the motivation behind a lot of the darts thrown.  Just follow the money. 

Narcissists empowered by the internet and media in general is a big problem these days. Perhaps one of the biggest. The impact on hifi choices is insignificant on the grand scale of things.

I’m pretty sure he has not said he knows everything. He is passionate about what he does and I do see indications in his reviews that he seems to be aware of what he knows and what he does not know which is very important and is not afraid to call out others on that one.

Just calling it as I see it.  I have no cards in this game. 

  Eureka I believe we’ve detected a sense of humor ! Major Breakthrough! 🥳

This thread kind of reminds me of a squash match in pro wrestling. Look it up!

Lots of resistance here though just not very effective from where I sit. 

I’m keeping tabs on products I own that he has reviewed. Chord Mojo and Fosi amp are winners. My spare older NOS mhdt dac maybe not so much but mine is SS and not tube. I had a tube mhdt also for awhile but unloaded it. Sound was nice and different but not to my liking as much. I bet it measures horribly. That’s its charm! So he hasn’t hurt my feelings too much (so far).

1241 posts and counting on this thread. Can Amir set a new Audiogon record? He has a lot of material to work with.  I am measuring this.

smug

/sməɡ/

adjective

1. having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one’s achievements.

   "he was feeling smug after his win"

Don’t you hate it when people take pride in their work?

@thyname  Amir seems to be a pretty smart and successful guy.  Is that what you are mocking?

Well the thing with wordy reviews loaded with adjectives  is most people can read some whereas relatively few know what to make of measurements. Hence the skepticism. See how that works?

You may as well try to teach a cat to bark. They speak different languages.

Understanding is a wonderful thing but unfortunately little of that is happening here. At least with the heavy posters. Most probably just read this thread and roll their eyes because they actually get it and therefore could care less what other people think. 

Nobody likes it when somebody rains on their parade  with a handful of select facts. 

It doesn’t make sense to me that someone who bases everything on numbers and metrics would have any need to censure others armed mainly with words.

Unless  there is bad behavior involved. That needs to be addressed in all cases, though increasingly these days it is not.

Forum rules should cover what constitutes bad behavior. If not that is an omission and should be fixed.

Passing tests?    That sounds hard….

Legend has it Medusa wasn’t so bad when you added some distortion.

Furthermore in more recent times, detail-obscuring low pass filters are used all the time to take that edge off extremely beautiful female models.

I’ve seen some AI generated beauties and I strongly suspect some serious distortion might have been tossed in there just to keep people in suspense. 

It’s really getting out of control.

I learned that some people think distortion is overrated. 

Anytime a review includes not just the numbers but the reviewers opinions based on using the product that is always best. Stereophile does that, though I do think that inexpensive products that measure well undermine their business model so there is that. ASR does seem to fill a valuable niche in that regard. People could save a lot of money if the numbers are not lying. The Fosi amps available on Amazon I mentioned above are a very good example of that in my experience.

@nevada_matt of course everyone is entitled to like what they like based on personal preferences. Personal preferences are useful things for others to consider but facts and personal preferences are two different things. It’s the facts that help people decide what to buy because each has their own different personal preferences. It’s all good.

Fact is the term audiophile has gotten a very bad rap over the years. The story is always how audiophiles seem to draw conclusions that can’t be substantiated by the data. I prefer the term hifi enthusiast. It’s the enthusiasm that yields the results in many cases. They synthesize truths from all the information available, not just numbers. The truths may relate to good sound which is subjective or good measured sound which is objective and Amir’s forte. Or both. No reason to just limit one’s information to numbers, though discounting valid numbers totally is probably not very constructive.

Different strokes.  More than one way to skin the cat?  Did I miss any appropriate cliches?

I trust subjective reviews if many unbiased reviewers draw similar conclusions. Then I like some  metrics to see if those correlate to what the people say they are hearing. When the stars all align anything is possible.

I hate to throw the B word around but could reviewers and retailers be….gasp….biased? This is surely not possible with Amir though, right? The M word does talk though. That’s always a safe bet.

More salt please ….

Hey wow!  Amir got a chart for everything!  They are all totally unbiased I’m sure. 😉

BTW I read the posts on asr forum regarding Ohm Walsh speakers.  Interesting comments from users there but frankly one will learn a lot more about those RIGHT HERE than there.  At least so far.  Maybe Amir will put those to the test someday. Not that it matters.   Many Ohm users out there from over many years that are happy and they know it.   Not sure what else they need to know really. 

@mahgister I get it.  It's OK to disagree.  Peace!

I have a little Fosi integrated Amp in one of my setups that I have posted about here in that it cost a pittance and turned out to be a huge overperformer driving my older kef ls50s very well which is not a trivial task. I have had some highly touted much costlier amps fail miserably at that in the past. I saw a review of a Fosi amp on asr site. Amir measured it and gave it a thumbs up. So we both agreed at least about Fosi amps in general. No minds changed

Also I gotta admit that as a technical person myself nonsensical or merely extravagant claims with nothing but bravado and marketing hype bug the heck out of me. Happens here all the time. As long as people are civil I accept it as their right and take it for what it’s worth. But it does bug the heck out of me because I do care about the technical details. Tolerance is a good thing. Those with total confidence in their convictions won’t fear the opinions of others. I do get that! But hey again nobody is perfect and I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. FBOFW.

It’s always a good idea to have unbiased sources confirm scientific or technical findings. Data presented by just one guy may not be accurate for many reasons. So take it with a grain of salt FWIW.

@somethingsomethingaudio no doubt style does matter when dealing with others. A little humbleness can go a long way. Same for having a sense of humor.

I am a senior level engineer myself and work with obsessed technical people like Amir all the time. Everyone is different though. Respect for others is a must in the corporate world because it’s typically a team effort that results in success. But the really good technical people often develop oversized egos to go along with it that can be a hindrance. But the smart ones learn over time and get it. In the end it’s the results that matter most. If one works for oneself it’s less of an issue as long as the results are there. You can do as you please as long as the results are there.

@amir_asr wondering if there are products you like to listen to that didn’t measure well? Does what you actually enjoy listening to always correlate to good metrics?

BTW thanks for spending some time here. I know it can be a tough crowd sometimes. Your site is very impressive and indicates a lot of time and hard work spent trying to put some real parameters around products that people might actually be able to afford. I think that is a valuable service and wish more people did it. You seem to have a lot of dedication to what you do which is admirable. I suspect many truly interested in learning appreciate what you do. FBOFW. Nobody is perfect but striving for excellence is something that should be valued not put down.

BTW I also appreciate your focus on issues discussed.  No personal attacks.  That makes a world of difference in regards to adding value. 

@thyname I make no money posting. But many here do. They have products and services to sell and there are no forum rules against vendors posting here. But. Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales. I’d surmise the forum is deemed a positive tool towards that end by allowing people to discuss things related to the things sold.  Amir’s site is one of many resources buyers have at their disposal to help make better informed decisions.  

It’s ok to make money if you are offering a service or product of value. That’s determined by the masses not any single handful of detractors.

It’s OK to not like someone. That’s a personal choice, but by posting here realize one is serving the purpose of providing free publicity. Not the first time someone has come here to help make a buck. In fact that’s what this site is for! The forum exists solely for that purpose.  I have no problem with it as long as the vendor is reasonably transparent and honest about why they are here.   Not always the case!

What exactly are we arguing about again? 

Btw extended bass is mostly felt not heard. 

I think it’s pretty pointless to argue against use of measurements to establish what is good sound reproduction. Note that good sound reproduction is different than good sound. One is objective the other subjective.

It’s also true that metrics alone do not tell the whole story. They are capable of getting things right but are often applied incorrectly or incompletely. It’s worth arguing that case by case but not that metrics are always the whole story or that they are of no value. It’s really not so complicated to understand. I find much of the content of this thread pretty useless.  Maybe Amir’s site has more to offer.  I’ll have to check it out more often. 

I can only speak for myself but the problem at hand for most here on this thread I think is how to best choose what to buy. Measurements are very useful for that. Explaining why human hearing is so complex is totally useless towards that end. It is useful to understand how human hearing works to help better understand why we hear what we do. But these are two totally different use cases. What is of value always depends on context. So there really should be no debate. Two totally different sets of information used for two different but related purposes. Best to understand it all but no point in arguing one versus the other. One topic at a time please!