Amir has not changed my mind about anything for several reasons.
1. Have always used measurements as a starting point only. Amir provides numerous measurements, a good thing, but not the full and complete picture.
2. Amir claims he relies on settled science and follows a scientific process. He is making measurements by following a process. However, a true scientific process involves identifying, managing, and documenting many more factors and conditions than Amir ever considers. We are talking about an Audio Hobby, so going full blown science is not required. Which would be just fine if Amir did not promote himself so vigorously as an authority with all the "correct" answers.
3. Amir promotes "cheap" but well measuring equipment as performing just as well as costlier well measuring equipment. Again, OK on its face if presented as a value proposition. Not OK when buyers that prefer to spend more for performance, quality, and reliability are labeled as audiofools, or worse. Not a winning strategy to change opinions.
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@amir_asr
The beef some of you have with me is misplaced. What you see is not me, it is me and literally tens of thousands of your fellow audiophiles working together to bring more transparency to audio gear.
No, you are the one doing the measuring and interpreting the data. Other followers chime in on occasion with their own "measurements" that would receive an F in high school science. Other followers drone on in posts full of random technical jargon claiming vast knowledge and experience. And there is the attack dog crowd ready to pounce with insults and slander toward anyone with differing experience or knowledge. The tens of thousands referenced are a cult that you, Amir, cultivate and allow to fester.
Allowing the benefit of doubt that you, Amir, have only pure intentions does not excuse the environment you, Amir, created. ASR could be a much better place for all without the arrogance, condescension, and hostile environment. You, Amir, are responsible to make changes.
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Post that testing, people gained general knowledge about the issues here and they will spread the word. This is why ASR is a team effort. Members enable testing of a ton of gear. Measurements provide very reliable facts. And knowledge gets discussed and disseminated.
Any followers measurements done on samples of one, alligator clip leads, and un calibrated measuring devices, for a start.
Remember, hundreds of gear gets measured every year on ASR. With very, very rare exceptions, no manufacturer has disputed them!
How many other reviewers measurements or opinions are disputed by manufacturers? No disputes can easily be interpreted that manufacturers simply don't care.
As a corollary to above, no audio reviewer’s work gets scrutinized remotely like mine. I publish a new review almost every day, subjecting my testing and opinion to verification/rejection by industry and membership at large. ASR would have thrived if the work we were doing was bad as you claim.
Your work is scrutinized partially because you relish in promoting superior knowledge, e.g. "I am the smartest person in the room". You also relish in accusing others of not knowing what they are doing. Post your data, let it stand on its own, no need to engage in arguments to prove you are right. Unfortunately, that behavior would not generate publicity for ASR.
The major reason for scrutiny and criticism is an issue you refuse to acknowledge or take any responsibility for, the hostile and snarky tone of too many of your followers. Dozens of times arrogant followers accuse others of being too stupid to ask questions, e.g. "read this list of publications or technical papers before returning".
Your long replies, like many at ASR, are full of self promotion deflection. Again, let your work stand on its own merits. It is valuable. All the ASR self created drama is NOT. He doth protest too much.
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@prof
Amir and ASR get slagged on forums like this, where strawmen accusations and inaccurate claims are made about him and the site. It’s completely his right, and certainly worthwhile, for him to engage with some of this criticism to correct some of the misinformation.
That is rich to complain about Amir and ASR being slagged! ASR has developed slagging others into an art form. An ASR moderator stated ASR members must treat other ASR members with respect. However, continued to say non ASR members are NOT afforded the same respect. Let that sink in. Speaks volumes about ASR. ASR lack of respect is demonstrated repeatedly.
Amir may have started ASR with pure intentions. For the most part, he has stayed out of the mug his followers like to live in. Unfortunately, die hard followers routinely engage in slagging others. The issue is not whether criticism is deserved, it is the descent into a mixture of hostility, snark, insults, and skirting slander.
ASR feels justified in starting a fight, but is quick to cry foul when there is a response. Perfect example is an ongoing back and forth ASR started and escalated until a response appeared. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. ASR throws grenades, stop whining about grenades being returned.
To be clear, measurements are valuable, but do not characterize everything. Amir providing measurements as a service is fine, The issue is the uncontrolled vitriol of the hard core followers.
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@amir_asr
You really make it difficult to separate Amir from the zealous followers. Unfortunately, your own words confirm the validity of reasonable people taking issue.
This frequently stated talking point is entirely fallacious.
That comment is arrogant, dismissive, and disrespectful. There is absolutely no reason to take that tone in response to a description of how a person chooses to enjoy his music and system. None of your D### business. The last shred of tolerance and respect for ASR died with that response.
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@painter24
Kudos for the response to Amir's "fallacious comment" slur aimed at you. Sorry to hear about your challenges, hope all is improving. Will be interesting to see if any type of apology appears. If so, likely will be indirect and wrapped in a long lecture about measurements with graphs.
Shame on anyone that continues to defend Amir. Done, done, done with Amir and ASR.
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If it measures the same, it sounds the same. Golden ears do not exist, human hearing capability is the same, just the brain that creates differences when none exist. Blind testing proves that?
So anybody go through the Harman process to become a trained listener? I have. What is the point of becoming a trained listener if measurements reveal how a product will sound? Measurements are important to reveal major flaws. Listening completes the evaluation. As Dr. Floyd Toole said "Two ears and a brain respond very differently to a complex sound field and are much more analytical, than an omni-directional mic and analyzer." Is Dr. Toole wrong?
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@hilde45
If someone tells me I’ve said something "fallacious," I don’t take that as a put down. They are doing me a service -- helping direct me to what is false. Because I prefer not to believe or claim false things. @amir_asr then goes to explain why it is fallacious. Those who interpret this as a personal attack just prove Amir’s point that some here are not interested in facts. (You don't agree with his argument that it's fallacious? Fine. Then rebut him. But don't take it personally.)
@painter24 simply and plainly described a personal preference for musical enjoyment. A statement having nothing to do with measurements or Amir. The use of "fallacious" by Amir was completely in the wrong. No false things to discuss or correct. @painter24 expressed a preference, just like saying Red is my favorite color. The "fallacious" comment by Amir and your defense of same completely miss the point being made by @painter24. Amir and your behavior, treating everyone as deserving some kind of re-education is arrogant.
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At last Amir replied to @painter24. Anybody see a straightforward apology. Told you so.
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Posts here from Amir have reached double digits. One included a picture of numerous items waiting to be measured. Quite the backlog of pro bono work needing attention while posts to this forum pile up?
Amir is like the Jehovah Witness that appears at your door uninvited. Polite no thank you does not deter the conversion sermon. Eventually, the door has to be closed only resulting in a louder voice continuing the sermon.
By now everybody should have heard enough. Join ASR and discuss measurements to your hearts content, or follow another path.
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@prof
Translation: We'd like to be able to slag Amir and his site publicly, without any push-back or correction to any nonsense we may be spreading.
Nah.
Neither you or Amir are the arbiters bestowed with any authority to label anything nonsense. Free exchange of ideas and experience here at Audiogon.
If you are going to slag someone publicly, don't complain if they show up to set the record straight.
Amir is the leader of ASR, the unrivaled place for slagging others, and then banning them if any defense is raised. Amir refuses to do anything about the insults, personal attacks, and slander his followers engage in. Until he cleans up his own house, Amir is fair game for criticism.
Amir is not setting any record straight. Instead has turned this thread into a platform to spread his gospel, readily available at ASR for those so inclined.
When Amir threw the term "fallacious" at @painter24, he revealed himself in full alignment with the disrespectful behavior of his followers. I will support reviewers like Erin that behave respectfully, do not engage in insults, and do not have an inflated ego.
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Some of you ask why so much hostility toward Amir and ASR. Take the situation with Erin. Erin was kicked off of ASR because of violating a core principle of ASR prohibiting financial gain. In the justification Amir explained Erin had been warned multiple times, while at the same time allowed to remain for almost a year after the first warning. Such a nice guy was Amir to allow a core ASR principle to be violated for almost a year. Anybody else granted such generosity?
Much more likely, Erin was seen as useful to ASR until he became viable competition. That type of self serving behavior contrasted with ASR routine claims of being an honest broker do not wash. Situational ethics on full display.
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Where did the OP go? Disappeared pretty quick, then turned into the Amir show.
To the Moderator(s): Given your task is not easy, could be time to close this thread. That action would be a big help to Amir, since he previously mentioned having a huge backlog of items to measure. Clearly, Amir is spending too much time here trying to convert the great unwashed mass of Audiogon audio-fools.
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@prof
That is an utterly disingenuous spin on Amir's situation with the Tact. It wasn't snake oil, it worked for it's purpose.
Get a grip on reality. Amir was called out in exactly the same way He and the ASR crowd would attack anyone else doing exactly the same thing.
So lets agree that his $15K device worked at one time and he verified improved FR with measurements and listening. Somebody else uses room treatment and verifies improved FR with measurements and listening. Or somebody modifies speaker crossovers and verifies improved FR with measurements and listening. Amir already stated room treatment does not work. Also on record numerous times crossover component cost or quality make not difference. Once again, Amir's own words and actions arrive at the same destination - Amir is right, everyone else is wrong. An WOW, his comment about rubbing elbows with luminaries is arrogance on full display. Love to hear your defense of that statement.
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@magister Great post. Glad you have finally see Amir clearly as the Sheldon of the audio hobby. Just like Sheldon, Amir claims to know everything and dismisses everyone else as ignorant. Just like Sheldon, Amir is threatened by mention of anything not in alignment with his belief system.
@kevn You nailed it. Amir never actually engages in an honest discussion, instead replies with dismissive language, tangential topics, and long ramblings. Anyone that wants to examine all the charts, graphs, measurements, and opinion Amir produces can find it on ASR. Repeating all that ad nauseum here is proof positive Amir has no ability to communicate without constantly beating his chest - "Look what I did". Repeatedly points to previous audio research or papers to support his position. Others point to papers or subject matter experts that question Amir's orthodoxy and they are dismissed as not applicable.
A prediction. At some point in the near future Amir will reference this Audiogon forum thread as proof of his far reaching audience and immense influence on the audio hobby.
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Nothing transformed my audio system and ideas more than that processor. My jaw fell on the floor in the way it seemingly removed the walls from my listening room!
What kind of subjective audio-foolery statement is that?
Alas, the story did not end well. After spending $10K on the processor, I spent another $5K to upgrade it.
The snake in snakeoil bit you in the butt. Wonder what kind of reception the above statements would receive over at ASR?
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@amir_asr
Snake oil? No way. Benefits of Room EQ is proven conclusively. There is no snake oil involved.
You don't even grasp the irony of your own gushing subjective words or spending $15K on an audio toy that ended up being useless. The very behavior routinely ridiculed on ASR.
This is all becoming hilarious reading the contortions you perform to always arrive at the same place - everything you do is right and nobody else knows anything.
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@amir_asr @prof
Your confusion of what is snake oil and what we are at ASR are your problem. You seem to think anything expensive must be snake oil. Do you go around saying that about a BMW?
ASR routinely labels anything "expensive" as snake oil when there is a cheap ASR endorsed option, regardless of real or perceived performance difference. Individuals that opt to spend hundreds or thousands on an item they find pleasing for whatever reason, ASR also routinely ridicules as audio-fools.
Interesting you bring up a car analogy, ridiculed many times on ASR. Again the irony and hypocrisy is staggering.
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@prof
I have over 5,000 posts on ASR. How many do you have in terms of actual familiarity with day to day content?
And there it is, one of the ASR faithful has joined the effort to hijack Audiogon. The day to day content on ASR is exactly why the hypocrisy is being called out.
Stop spreading misinformation, and then maybe Amir won't have to spend his time showing up to correct it.
Once again, the cult like mantra appears - Amir is right, everyone else is wrong. Is that pile of backlogged equipment to measure getting any smaller?
If Amir really thinks correction is needed then allow discussion on ASR as on display here. Oh no, sorry, that would not work. Only group think allowed on ASR, so Audiogon is now the soapbox for Amir.
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@nevada_matt you are spot on.
Where amir starts going on about how, explicitly or through snide comments, someone is a rube, a plebe, an unsophisticated troglodyte if they don’t agree with his value judgements and they actually like, and forfend(!), purchase something that does not “measure up” per amir, is where he becomes offensive.
Tossing the "fallacious" label at @painter24 is a prime example of true colors being revealed.
It has been implied in this thread that bad behavior in disagreement with Amir is equivalent to the bad behavior accusations leveled against Amir. No, there is an important difference. Amir and ASR only give lip service to the idea individuals are free to make their own choices. The ASR approach is to badger other into submission. Every non-compliant thought is dismissed as invalid, uninformed, biased, untrained, non-scientific, ignorant, unethical, etc., etc. This thread is nothing more than Amir arguing and badgering with excessively long posts,
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Agree it is time to close this thread. Although, it does demonstrate a crystal clear difference between Audiogon and ASR. ASR would never have allowed a similar exchange.
A parting suggestion before this thread might disappear. Go back and carefully read recent posts from @kevn. Very thoughtful, reasoned and accurate analysis.
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