Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

Once. It was a mistake. Quickly returned back to my own testing and listening.

Sure, use it as basic guidelines to get ideas on early measurements. However, those measurements may not capture everything you are looking for.

At the end of the day, do your own listening too, with your ears, realizing you may hear differently. Why you may decide and enjoy most is not always reflected in graphs.

@amir_asr 

"Do you ever seat down and just enjoy your music like a normal human being?"

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What? Of course I do. I am at desk testing gear for good number of hours every day. All of that is spent listening to music. This is good number of hours per day.

I recently came back from Pacific Audio Fest 2023 and not only did a bunch of listening there, I was the only reviewer posting what music was played there. See my trip reports:

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Okay, so I just completed reading all 14 pages of your show report on the ASR forum. Some nice Photos.  I was paying attention to lots of complaints about costs of equipment, or complaints about speaker positioning in the rooms.  A few nice compliments about exhibitors listing components, pricing sheets, and measurements. A few comments such as "sounds decent", or "bright" or "open".  Pretty vague, not descriptive, and no explanation beyond single words at most.  

Honestly - the report so far has no helpful descriptions or details about how things really sounded at the show, with a lack of descriptive detail.  Also noting very limited praise for many systems we are familiar with, particularly with high cost systems. High cost systems can sound good too, yet there is limited reporting.  

Other than some nice photos, reading the 14 pages posted so far was kind of a waste of time for me.  There seems to be a real gap in describing how things sound in a manner folks here on Audiogon can truly appreciate or understand. Perhaps we can ask the question in another way to learn more.  

ASK: 

With your expertise in measurements, can you also share something more about a system that you really like and enjoy?  Then describe how it sounds, and why it sounds great to you? In what ways?

@amir_asr ...I am not a paid reporter as to sit there and take copious notes.

...All in all, a few rooms did stand out and one was Dutch and Dutch.

So turns out you don’t need to spend that much money to get superb sound (although $15K is not cheap).

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Thanks for the clarification about your approach and what stood out to you at the PNW audio show.  

@ossicle2brain ..."they don’t do a fraction as much for audio science as Amir does".

Effort and Value are two different things. The comments about needing to be "paid" in order to take notes at an audio show was telling. No need for notes, just listen, and report out what you hear. Audio science not required, just listen and share. Most here who’ve been to a show always remember the systems that sound best to them. Does not require a notepad.

Again, the majority here at Audiogon do not need a meter or graph to know what sounds good. Listen, then measure. Completely different philosophies that may never agree. A for effort, maybe. Then again, what’s the goal. Different goals it seems. Leave it to agree to disagree since the goals are vastly different.

Enjoy the music.

@amir_asr ...Nothing remotely like this was stated. I have said the opposite and will say it again: properly run listening test is superior to measurements.

Amir, can you share what constitutes a "properly run listening test" from your perspective? What characteristics are you listening for, specifically?

@amir_asr Hopefully this at least partially answers your question. :)

Yes, it does. Thanks for sharing your point of view. However, It also exposes what might be missing for some discriminating listeners. Your reply explains your approach, and the type of characteristics you listen for. It clarifies what’s important to you. This is helpful in surfacing differences in translation and expectations by some other listeners who look for something more in what they hear and listen for - in completely different ways. That’s okay, just different means of approach.  

In your words, you are listening for "distortion", "any differences", "brightness", "artifacts no longer there". Helpful, yet a more generic description overall.

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GAPS / DIFFERENCES in descriptions:

Some other critical listeners are looking for different descriptions, using different vocabulary, to convey a different type of listening experience. None of it is being measured or reported on your graphs for the PNW show report on your website. Again all just words. People seem to be speaking using different descriptions. And, will likely continue to disagree about what’s important to them using different words.

More personal descriptions by some listeners, might use words and ranges to describe how much of any of these type of "artifacts" exists, such as "Texture, sound stage, depth, presence, layering, balanced, bassy, lean, sibilant, transparent, clarity, clean, clear, open, detailed, etched, quality, warm or warmth, veiled, 3D, engaging vocals, bumped mid-bass, lush midrange..." All subject to interpretation of course. Don’t kill the messenger, just sharing words and different things others look for, to learn more, aside from measures and graphs.

Many can argue there are no trustworthy measures for this type of data being represented, or for showing on graphs. Very different audio science camps and forum listeners reporting it differently. For what its worth, or simply disregard. :)

@amir_asr Well, measurements show why it is not perfect. For measurements to fail, would have been if it didn’t show that!

I was following a scope readout by a tube amp designer recently who was acknowledging a "non-perfect" sign wave existed in the last design iteration. The top left corner of the sign wave was lively, less than perfect in terms of uniformity, yet reportedly sounded really good, alive and well, when the amp circuit was left as-is. Letting it be or hammering it into submission was the next case study to tune and listen more. This is where things get to be a LOT more interesting to me.

This designer mentioned when taming those little sign wave spikes (aka flare), now making it a more uninformed and perfect sign wave, all of the sudden the amp sounded "dead", no longer alive or enjoyable any more, bleh. After several tests, the designer then made a conscious decision to let it be, since it sounded much better in its original untamed state after extensive listening tests. This is what many of us mean by "listen first and then measure". Putting more emphasis on listening and what sounds best as a means to an end, rather than making graph lines flat.

Some of the popular mid woofer speaker drivers I’ve used from Scanspeak are this way, measuring less than perfect, yet they are alive and musical as-is when left alone - "less tamed" if that’s a description that resonates with a few members here. With tests showing a bit of less-than-perfect jagged flare on the graphs in the upper midrange frequency range on the last drivers I used - most electrical engineers would beat it back into submission with an overly controlling crossover. Some look at this flare as noise, distortion, needing correction. That’s one point of view, not all.

Once again, in my own self made speakers later discovered leaving the drivers as it was designed resulted in a captivating and engaging sound - left in less than perfect form. Sometimes what is perfect to an electrical measurement engineer is not always perfect music to others ears. Most of the audio systems I enjoy listening to do not measure perfectly at all - fwiw. The absolute best measuring dac I’ve ever owned was one of the worst to listen to. Sounding "dead", or boring being a great description.

Unfortunately a debate that won’t be solved on this tread it seems.

@amir_asr Well, you can’t mix non-science and science.

So tell your stories but not to me please. Come back when you can at least be bothered to do an AB test without your eyes involved.

Yes we can. And, there it is for all to see. My goal was to further expose more of your self-inflicted BS to everyone here. Wishing you best of luck on the future! 

@amir_asr Here is the problem: there is no proof point that the assertion of said designer is true. You say he did "extensive listening tests." I guarantee that you have no idea what that testing was let alone that it was extensive. What music was used? What power level? What speakers? How many listeners? What is the qualifications of the designer when it comes to hearing impairments?

Story is told and believed. Maybe it is true. Maybe it is not. After all, if he saw a significant measurement error, logic says the odds of it sounding good is low. After all, why else would you tell that story? If the odds are low, then we better have a documented, controlled test that shows that. Not just something told.

Exactly. I believed something "told" once. Thought I’d put it to the test myself. It was about a really great measuring DAC on said forum. All looked good on measurements and graphs. I took the plunge, went out and bought it with intent it would be a long term keeper DAC. Played it for just under two weeks. Unfortunately, ended up sending it back for a full refund and kept a different unit that measured worse. This other worse measuring unit sounded so much better and was notably more engaging to my ears - for half the price. My ears, my preference, is #1. Summary, what measured better did not sound better. End of story for me. And, preference can vary from one person to the next, no matter what the graph wants to show.

Thanks to those in business who understand this and offer a helpful refund policy. Not everyone is going to like the sound of their designs. 

@amir_asr Incredible that people with eyes wide open continue to claim that they only used their ears.

There you go again, making assumptions that everything is black or white and there is no such thing as "gray" in between. This is common engineer-only type of behavior and reaction. Its to be expected. Nobody confirmed we are only using our ears. Only you said this. We all see how you make up your own rules and conclusions, yet typically not respectful of others input when it comes down to it.

Sure we respect measurements. It’s a helpful guideline to test, measure, validate however we can, the best we can. Most everyone gets that Aamir. However, it does not encapsulate the whole spectrum of what some hear or don’t hear. I believe there is a long ways to go with scientific measurement, tools, and what’s going on with humans and hearing today. There are wild animals that hear and see things in the darkness that we cannot even begin to fully understand yet as humans.

One last thought - your measurement results do not always coincide with what we are hearing some times. Your definition of "perfect" is your opinion, not always fact for some of us here. This is something you will likely choose to continue to ignore. That’s okay. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - whether you like it or not. That’s what makes for good horse races and keeps audio alive and well LOL.

@milpai Wow...this forum certainly has a lot of time on hand to waste on someone whose opinion they don’t care about. Have fun folks!

Oh they "care" alright, firstly about disinformation, and other experiences that come into play for those with an open mind and willing to discover additional considerations which can be helpful sometimes.

This thread has exposed very different points of view from different camps and schools of thought - which can be helpful for those willing to sift through the nonsense in order to take away a few nuggets they might be interested in retaining.

@brianlucey @deceoony what is the "disinformation" you speak of ? No one can dispute a well made measurement. The issue it’s validity.

Hi Brian, long time no chat since the last V12R amp chat about tube reduction down to 2 or 3 per side - years back. Good times. Nice to hear from you. It partly has to do with recommendations and information shared about a measured component that "measured the best" and reportedly "sounded great", or "one of the best for sound". All according to the hard core measurement gang with strong beliefs this was the best for sound. What sound is the question. Clearly we may all just be hearing differently. A quick recap - I took the bait, bought it, tried it, and was sorely disappointed. Shockingly so. I for one can dispute a measurement, a "well made one" too, who knows, and this is part of the great debate here perhaps.

I won’t disclose details as the component designer/builder was gracious and provided a full refund. With all due respect, I wish them well. No harm, no foul. However, learned a lesson, some of these measurement practices do NOT tell us everything. I agree with your prior posts. Ended up buying something else for 1/2 cost which sounded notably better [to me], and measured worse. Go figure. Are we measuring the right things then, I digress. Call it one person’s opinion perhaps and we’ll leave it at that. High praise for those with confidence and a great return policy, you simply can’t please all of us- and that’s okay. Is what it is.

1241 posts and counting on this thread. Can Amir set a new Audiogon record? He has a lot of material to work with. I am measuring this.

Seems so when there are so many different people who are more than willing to debate it even more.

Now back to listening to distorted tube amps, and sub-optimal measuring DAC - sounds amazing by the way! Y’all have fun now, lol. :)

Thread Title, 2023: Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

Thread Title, 2022: Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

Answer: No. Nothing has changed. Same stuff, every year. Rinse, repeat.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/audio-science-review-the-better-the-measurement-the-better-the-soun?page=2

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rolox

131 posts

09-16-2022 at 10:44pm

 

@djones51 ASR doesn’t offer anything of value to us audiophiles. I’ve been there, done that, I’ve bought a 250$ DAC with pristine measurements thinking it would be all I’ll ever need. I’m poor, you see, so it’s easy to fall for ASR ’s claims. "Yaaay I got a great deal and you guys are all morons"

Unfortunately, those claims are utter BS in the real world for anyone who has EARS and actually LISTENS to their equipment. So, I’d rather see ASR as a disservice to the audiophile community, on top of being full with obnoxious (let’s call a cat a cat) members.