It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
The problem is not Amir dedication, it is as someone just said above some"evangelists" attitude and character ... Stupid people and opinionated one exist in subjectivist crowd too not only with objectivist despising audiophiles...
I did not understand why people are so focussed on one aspect of audio forgetting the other...
Psycho-acoustic is the heart of audio, here subjective hearing is correlated with objective acoustic disposition .... Nothing else is...Not branded name, not price tag, not electrical measurements, PSYCHO-ACOUSTIC is the heart ... Learn its basic or be fooled... It is the ONLY thing i learned in audio... The rest is secondary details in electrical, mechanical and acoustical embeddings of the system ...
Post that testing, people gained general knowledge about the issues here and they will spread the word. This is why ASR is a team effort. Members enable testing of a ton of gear. Measurements provide very reliable facts. And knowledge gets discussed and disseminated.
Any followers measurements done on samples of one, alligator clip leads, and un calibrated measuring devices, for a start.
Remember, hundreds of gear gets measured every year on ASR. With very, very rare exceptions, no manufacturer has disputed them!
How many other reviewers measurements or opinions are disputed by manufacturers? No disputes can easily be interpreted that manufacturers simply don't care.
As a corollary to above, no audio reviewer’s work gets scrutinized remotely like mine. I publish a new review almost every day, subjecting my testing and opinion to verification/rejection by industry and membership at large. ASR would have thrived if the work we were doing was bad as you claim.
Your work is scrutinized partially because you relish in promoting superior knowledge, e.g. "I am the smartest person in the room". You also relish in accusing others of not knowing what they are doing. Post your data, let it stand on its own, no need to engage in arguments to prove you are right. Unfortunately, that behavior would not generate publicity for ASR.
The major reason for scrutiny and criticism is an issue you refuse to acknowledge or take any responsibility for, the hostile and snarky tone of too many of your followers. Dozens of times arrogant followers accuse others of being too stupid to ask questions, e.g. "read this list of publications or technical papers before returning".
Your long replies, like many at ASR, are full of self promotion deflection. Again, let your work stand on its own merits. It is valuable. All the ASR self created drama is NOT. He doth protest too much.
They send me equipment, I test and publish them. We then collectively discuss the findings. Certain truths pop out of this process. That truth resonates with so many audiophiles who are desperate for reliable facts about audio gear. This is the appeal.
You also relish in accusing others of not knowing what they are doing.
If someone has designed something in a way that suggests they don’t know what they are doing, or measures something in a way that suggests they don’t know what they are doing, that is worth pointing out by Amir...or anyone else with the knowledge to do so.
Funny how many ASR-averse audiophiles jump on Amir claiming "he doesn’t know what he’s doing" but...no hint of criticism about that, right?
Post your data, let it stand on its own,
Amir’s youtube videos are hugely popular and he generally does provide data that can stand on it’s own. IF the viewer/reader is technically literate enough. However...the point is that Amir is aware that most of his audience does NOT have the technical knowledge and gear to vet these claims, which is why Amir spends time explaining what the measurements mean, and when something isn’t doing what it claims to do.
That seems to make a lot of golden eared audiophiles salty. That’s mostly their problem IMO.
no need to engage in arguments to prove you are right.
Amir and ASR get slagged on forums like this, where strawmen accusations and inaccurate claims are made about him and the site. It’s completely his right, and certainly worthwhile, for him to engage with some of this criticism to correct some of the misinformation.
The thing is his critics will never cut him slack. They generally won’t show up on ASR to challenge Amir’s reviews with objective evidence. Instead you see people in forums like this sniping and criticizing, and if Amir ignores it then "Amir just ignores all the critiques of his approach and reviews!" But if Amir actually makes the effort to show up and address the critiques then it’s "Amir is so obnoxious and evangelical, he can’t just leave other audiophiles alone..."
... I did not understand why people are so focussed on one aspect of audio forgetting the other...
YouTubers need to differentiate themselves from the crowd of competing YouTubers. (The cost of entry is so low, that anyone can become a YouTube influencer!) The smart ones, such as Amir, find a "hook" and then cultivate the audience that follows it.
Amir argues:
"The world of audio marketing is broken to the core."
That premise allows him to be the savior. It’s the, "Only I can fix it" canard.
"I wasn’t directing my post to Amir’s proxy by the way. "
That’s the sort of thing that makes each forum’s members feel unwelcome at the other site, isn’t it? This is a forum, not a one-on-one chat.
"if you observe how blindly the minions follow their master and read Amir’s posts on this thread, you will realize that this limited minded group of people for whom using their own head for anything other than eating is too much of a burden, need the Amirs of this world with their oscilloscopes to guide them in their decision making process.
Judging by his responses here, I may have given him too much credit in my original post on this thread. "
And that is the same on steroids. Congratulations on a pile of useless invective.
"@amir_asr Amir…how about incorporating listening tests and publishing those results along with the measurements. As most reviewers do, list your reference system so that your subscribers can see in what context a component was reviewed and how it performed using your ears as a measurement tool. Don’t use a $99 dac to test a $1700 usb cable. "
As I mentioned, I perform huge number of listening tests in my reviews. So much so that it dwarfs what other reviewers do. Just look at my reviews for headphones, speakers, headphone amps, etc. Here is the latest example of the former:
I do these because differences are large so we are not asking if something makes a difference at all. I suspect that is where you are going with the rest of your comment.
In that class of device, it is critical to perform controlled, blind tests as otherwise results are dominated by improper testing, bias, etc. To be sure, I also do such listening tests from time to time but I put no value on them, and neither should you. Here is an example, the iconoclast cable review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/belden-iconoclast-xlr-cable-review.33929/
"Iconoclast CLR Cable Listening Tests
I used two setups for listening tests: headphone and main 2-channel system:
Headphone Listening: source was a computer as the streamer using Roon player to RME ADI-2 Pro ($2K) acting as a DAC & headphone amplifier, driving my Dan Clark Stealth headphone ($4K). I started listening with Iconoclast cable. Everything sounded the same as I was used to. I then switched to WBC cable. Immediately I "heard" more air, more detail and better fidelity. This faded in a few seconds though and the sound was just as it was with the Iconoclast.
For my main system, I used a Topping D90SE driving the Topping LA90 which in turn drove my Revel Salon 2 speakers. I picked tracks with superb spatial qualities to judge the usual "soundstage." I again started with Iconoclast XLR TPC cable. I was once again blown away how good my system sounds. I don't get to enjoy it often enough given how much time I spend working at my desk. Anyway, after a while I switched to WBC cable. Once again, immediate reaction was that the sound was more open, bass was a bit more tight, etc. This too passed after a few seconds and everything sounded the same again."
As you see, the rest of the system was specified and it was anything but a "$99 DAC." The DAC costs $2,000. My Revel Salon 2 speakers retail for $23,000 a pair. And as noted, my headphones along cost $4,000.
I put all that info in there to impress folks like you, not that they matter much. :) If they did, then the manufacturer should have put in as precondition of purchase. Which they never do. Plenty of people buy these things and hook them up to modest systems and claim improvements. Don't see anyone telling them their system is too cheap for the difference they heard to be real. The argument is only used when results don't show a difference.
By the way, above review also included proper null tests in addition to measurements. That testing showed beyond any doubt, with real music, that there is no difference due to this cable:
A review doesn't get more comprehensive than this.
No doubt Amir and ASR have done some great work in shedding more light at the science of testing audio equipment but they are not the only ones.
Archimago’s Musings is an interesting site to dip into now and again. Detailed analysis on varied interesting audio topics can regularly be found there.
Then there’s Erin, at Erin’s Audio Corner YouTube channel. Like Amir he also employs a Klippel Near Field Scanner to provide data to back up his reviews. Erin is also not one to hold back from any criticisms if and when he discovers possible issues.
Audioholics website is yet another example of where the science of audio testing is being increasingly pushed to the forefront.
Amir has certainly changed my outlook in the same way that the likes of Peter Aczel and Alan Shaw did before him.
Of course, for entertainment purposes I will still read non science based reviews in future, but only as works of pure fiction or clever marketing.
"YouTubers need to differentiate themselves from the crowd of competing YouTubers. (The cost of entry is so low, that anyone can become a YouTube influencer!) The smart ones, such as Amir, find a "hook" and then cultivate the audience that follows it."
Your argument doesn't hold water about me because I am not a typical youtuber. Despite having 40,000 subscribes and qualifying long time ago for monetization, I don't do such. There are no ads, no sponsorships, no patreon requirement to see, no nothing. Neither do I beg for "likes and subscriptions" as youtubers do. So please don't put me in that bucket.
I create youtube videos when explaining the same thing in text requires writing a book. I also highlight a product review here and there when it is notable. These are the things that differentiate me from other youtubers.
"Amir argues:That premise allows him to be the savior. It’s the, "Only I can fix it" canard."
You keep creating these talking points while missing core points I have made. That this is a community effort. My voice would be completely lost on the Internet if people didn't see value in my work and didn't talk about it. And continue to support the activity by sending me huge volume of audio gear to test.
I am motivated by curiosity of how something performs much more than thinking I can solve the audio problem at large. Yes, that change is coming slowly and very heartwarming to see. More and more companies are investing in proper measurement gear to test their design. That way, the first time they see an issue, it wont be in my testing. They also see value in a very large group of audiophiles who now value measurements as a purchase criteria. This is what keeps me going.
Archimago’s Musings is an interesting site to dip into now and again. Detailed analysis on varied interesting audio topics can regularly be found there.
Then there’s Erin, at Erin’s Audio Corner YouTube channel. Like Amir he also employs a Klippel Near Field Scanner to provide data to back up his reviews. Erin is also not one to hold back from any criticisms if and when he discovers possible issues.
You don't seem to appreciate that these are not private conversations. It's a forum, designed so that anyone who wants to can comment...on anything someone else says in a thread.
Best to make peace with this fact if you want to post in public forums.
"if you observe how blindly the minions follow their master and read Amir’s posts on this thread, you will realize that this limited minded group of people for whom using their own head for anything other than eating is too much of a burden, need the Amirs of this world with their oscilloscopes to guide them in their decision making process."
Nothing remotely like this is true. Every review I post gets criticism from membership on ASR forum. This is almost without exception! Members are highly knowledgeable and critique any and all aspects of the review. I feel like I am taking a final exam in college and getting graded on every review I do!
That is what objective data allows people to do: they can examine the information the same way I would. This is quite different than a subjectivist reviewer claiming this and that track sounded good on this and that device. You do not share that experience so no way to challenge the reviewer on any basis. Not so when I post a measurement.
Members also are also free to challenge me with their own testing as happened recently over of all things, a $35 dongle that converted XLR to RCA. Another engineer bought a unit and has created his own tests.
Members also bring their own criteria for whether a unit is recommended or not. There is a multi-choice poll for every review where members opine whether they agree or not with my final conclusion.
Finally, it strains credibility that hundreds of thousands of your peers are dumb and blindly follow something. It actually takes a lot to convince them of anything.
Really, spend a few minutes on the site before forming these blind conclusions and talking points.
There is one thing i like about Amir investigation...
It debunk the myth and magic marketing LINEAR link between S.Q. and price tag...There is none...
For example in dac... Dac is a mature technology, and we can now afford a very good one at relatively low price...
And in my acoustic experiments i discovered that improving acoustic is way more powerful than upgrading cables or dac or amplifier and sometimes even speakers...( if you have basic good one to begin with for sure)
By the way i am neither objectivist or subjectivist, no more than Gulliver was egg small ender or big ender...
Acoustic is key for me...But how can we criticize someone giving to us more information to digest ? I will not...
«I measure temperature in my ears before listening»--Groucho Marx audiophile 🤓
I think a member who isn’t pleased with a post can just report it, which usually results in the post being quickly deleted. Seems like it can be a petty "I’ll show them" response.
So it’s not necessarily that mods are scouring the thread looking to delete.
I’ve had plenty of bafflingly benign posts deleted via, I believe, this route.
asr is good for things like power conditioners, cables, probably dacs too, maybe amps for some useful measures like power stability at different loads and such
IMO asr is least useful for speakers, which are far more personal
I think a member who isn’t pleased with a post can just report it, which usually results in the post being quickly deleted. Seems like it can be a petty "I’ll show them" response.
So it’s not necessarily that mods are scouring the thread looking to delete.
I’ve had plenty of bafflingly benign posts deleted via, I believe, this route.
this is correct and entirely consistent with my experience
there are different mods on duty at any given time, tammy is the most thoughtful one, others will just delete stuff if requested without much if any thought -- all this is mostly just harmless drivel as they see it (a bunch of bored old men, sad nerds, and a few habitual troublemakers sparring) -- and they are largely right
My point about electrical measures is simple : they are INFORMATION we must take as information, often very useful ...
Amir give us much more information about the design of a component , then we can only thanks him for his " knowledge" ...
My other point is : Information is not knowledge...
In audio as in any field the difference between information and knowledge is simple and explicitly given by the great mathematician of this century : Alexander Grothendieck : " an information may add something to us but did not change us, knowledge change us "... ( in his book " the Key of dreams") 😊
In audio, acoustic knowledge and basic psycho-acoustic experiments change us IMMEDIATELY, because they make us TOUCH and FEEL what is timbre for example or dynamic or transients or immersivenes, sound sources apparent localizations, or the listener envelopment and the sound source ratio etc , by experiments varying acoustic conditions in our room.
These experiences not only add something as a mere information, as information about the design of a component can do, but when put in place in some order transform our hearing being completely and without coming back , we begin to be conscious of new aspect of us in relation to the sound and to the soundfield that we could not even imagine before it ...
This why i said that we must learn how to listen, it is not given by purchasing 20 amplifiers or 30 headphones...It is information we gain by purchasing brand names not knowledge... We can buy information not knowledge... We can buy a book but we cannot buy the understanding experience of the book...
This is why Acoustic is the heart of audio... Not electronic design by itself alone...Anyway revolution in electronic design also often comes from psycho-acoustic principles, facts or discoveries : Smyth realizer or Dr. Choueri BACCH filters among many others... I remember atmasphere explaing here 1 year ago very interestingly how his psycho-acoustic knowledge inspired him for the better design of his tube amplifiers for example...
« Sorry for your theory but my wife’s information is already knowledge»--Groucho Marx 🤓
All debates with no arguments attacking valid information and facts are useless...
General accusation are only mirror reflecting opinionated people...
We need measurements as we need our ears...
But we need to focus less on the gear , their measures or the listening impressions and more about the way to learn how to listen in controlled acoustic conditions ...I dont means blind test here, i spoke about small room acoustic...
Because at the end any audio system must be judged in a specific room...
The optimal room transform a system in a way no upgrade can...
For sure all people cannot embark in acoustic experiments journey... Headphone can be a solution then... Or i recommend Dr. Choueri BACCH filters system...
But the only way to learn how to listen and understand sound is acoustic experiments as the only way to learn how to listen and understand music is playing an instrument...
Perceiving something without the clear concept about what is about to be perceived, hide and distort the phenomenon to be understood... To describe something even to ourself we need concept and the corresponding word...Without it the phenomenon most of the times did not exist or is unoberseved or confusely sensed...
Listening is not then about innate "taste" except in the marketing litterature...
We are all limited...i was able to design my own acoustic room but i did not play an instrument... 😂
😊
The desire to learn and the orientation of attention can compensate for our limitations for sure...
this is my second time to write this post. dont know why audiogon erased the last one.
no, he hasnt changed my mind about anything.
i appreciate measurements, especially these days, as many companies dont even publish specs. some wont give em when u ask. i appreciate the necessary service that ASR does in takin measurements on this gear.
but measurements...measurements are a good start. id rather have something that sounds and measures great than something that measures like crap and sounds great. measurements aint the end, tho, theyre the beginning of better discernment.
the conversation implicit in the relationship of ASR to the larger audiophile/hifi world is summed up in the conversation between lt valeris and spock in ST VI where valeris speaks on behalf of logic and spock states,"logic, logic, logic...logic is the beginning of wisdom, valeris."
The problem is not Amir, but some of the extremism and opinionated "disciples" so to speak...
It is the samething here with people who think sound is only about their uneducated "tastes" and nothing else......Extremism is on the two sides...
There will be no quarrel at all if people were able to understand basic psycho-acoustic ...
Human hearing is very complex and we cannot say that if it is not measurable by oscilloscope and others electrical tools it does not exist as a perception ...
Spoken sounds and musical sounds are qualities "wholeness" entities extended in a time/timing ten of milliseconds region, the way we perceived them is studied in psycho-acoustic and cannot be analysed in the more simple way we measured electrical thresholds in gear design...
Human perception is primary in acoustic...
Acoustician who designed the architecture of great music hall in the past were doing it as an art and craft using their ears not a mere mechanical mathematical formula...
For sure A.I. could soon replace them...But my point is, so much useful electrical measures of the gear could be, they cannot replaced acoustic and trained ears...
Even those who measure and think they can hear only what they electrically measure from the gear , as those who claim to perceive gear differences and claiming that one "taste" better by virtue of their "taste"; All those, most of them, never trained their listenings and hearings with acoustic...They then ignore that we cannot perceive some phenomena at the treshold limit of our OWN hearing without creating the conditions for the phenomena to be perceived and manifested first ... Is it illusion or placebo, sometimes yes, sometimes no...The main thing is experimenting by ourself...
"For example in dac... Dac is a mature technology, and we can now afford a very good one at relatively low price..."
See, this is where the comment breaks down. You can get a very good measuring one, but it may not sound that good. However ASR minions will argue that all Dacs that measure the same sound the same. Rubbish! ESS based Dacs sound shrill in the mid range. Also what is this "mature technology"? Over the years technology tends to improve. Despite your name, (though the Latin is magister), you are not much of a teacher.
I have already said Amir is rude and intolerant. A number of posters have already been banned from ASR for posting contrary opinions, yet Amir is here posting his.
As far as Amir’s measurements being incorrect or off beam, there is plenty of information around on the web, you just need to look for it. Just one example is the silly testing methodology of the Chord M Scaler. Read the following if you want more examples.https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/65677-why-you-cant-trust-measurements/#comments
Then you get people like Matt Hooper, who is actually one of the members of ASR who has less of an attack dog mentality, and who posts under the name "Prof" here, though heaven knows what sort of Prof he is, who post nonsense like "The thing is his critics will never cut him slack." Well "Prof" if you come to erroneous conclusions or use poor methodology why should you get cut slack?
"See, this is where the comment breaks down. You can get a very good measuring one, but it may not sound that good. "
There is a "break down" but not in the way you realize. None of you bother to eliminate sources of bias and errors in your listening tests before claiming you hear this and that. It is trivial to show that two identical audio products will get different subjective impressions even though the sound is identical between them. Until this lesson is learned, you will never know the audio truth and wind up chasing ghosts.
"I have already said Amir is rude and intolerant. A number of posters have already been banned from ASR for posting contrary opinions, yet Amir is here posting his."
I am only here because you all are discussing me and making stuff up that are simply not true. I am thankful that the host is allowing me to reply. Should they want to disallow that, I would accept it and go about my business.
"As far as Amir’s measurements being incorrect or off beam, there is plenty of information around on the web, you just need to look for it. "
You need to do more than "look for it." You need to understand the topic at a very deep level. Otherwise you are just running with talking points that can be shown to be false claims. To wit, you linked to a youtuber who uses an analyzer just to ignore the data that it generates and run off with a bunch of subjective nonsense not backed by said measurements. His video there shows that there are settings in the analyzer that change the results. Well duh! Use the same settings as I do and you get consistent, and repeatable results.
I am getting close to 2,000 measurements I have performed. If there were flaws in my work by now there would be riots in streets with manufacturers countering them. Yet not only do you not see that, but manufactures that do proper engineering continue to send me equipment to test. And participate in ASR as well. I earlier linked to the Focal speaker review I did which was sent to me by the company. My work is somehow proper to them but not for you???
"None of you bother to eliminate sources of bias and errors in your listening tests before claiming you hear this and that. "
Absolute rubbish Amir. You have no idea how many here actually do listen to a variety of equipment without knowing what the equipment is or what the cost is. Again you push the line that you are the omnipotent guru. There are others who have far more knowledge and experience than you, yet you push your video on "listener training" Please!.
"If there were flaws in my work by now there would be riots in streets with manufacturers countering them." There are and for what its worth Goldenone knows far more than you, but when he challenged your measurements you threw him out.
"Well "Prof" if you come to erroneous conclusions or use poor methodology why should you get cut slack?"
You all have been asked repeatedly to state what is wrong with the methodology I use yet nothing specific has come up. Not a thing. You just linked to two random online threads as if that is supposed to be something.
As to conclusions being wrong, that is an opinion you have that is not backed by any facts or data. You just claim it and expect it to be taken at face value. How on earth is that the right "methodology?" Do a controlled test as the entire audio science world demands and then we can talk if your results are different than what measurements show. Until then, you are just unhappy that what you think is right, really isn't based on objective facts, science and engineering. That is a huge hurdle to get over.
For me Amir, with all due respect, part of the problem for me is your manner. I want be open minded to what you say, and the points/facts/information you are attempting to impart, but for me it's about manner and delivery. Somebody else mentioned Erin's Audio Corner; I could listen to him all day; firstly he has humility, and he doesn't stop dead at the measurements he displays.
At the end of the day, when it comes down to it, when I or anyone else switches on their system and presses play, it becomes an entirely subjective activity; after all, for me anyway it's about the music and love/passion for music. If it sounds good/I enjoy the presentation my system gives me, nothing else matters - not measurements, cost, brand, none of it. I want to get lost in the music, end of.
If the enjoyment of music is distilled down into a debatable set of measurements, or reduced to pure scientific theory, the soul of music is dead. Unfortunately, I'm sorry to say, but that's how I feel when I read the ASR forums.
I wish you the best of luck in your work, and your endeavors with ASR, but it's just not palatable to me personally. Other's mileage may vary, as this my purely subjective view 😉
I have zero issues with measurements based music listening & enjoyment as a hobby, but phrases like this, from the Master’s mouth is the problem with all this GREAT debate and bickering:
None of you bother to eliminate sources of bias and errors in your listening tests before claiming you hear this and that.
People should be allowed to express their opinion on any audio gear or system openly and without fearing backlash from the measurements crowd, always trigger happy to spoil the party by throwing & yelling “proof” in their face.
also, phrases like this:
Until this lesson is learned, you will never know the audio truth and wind up chasing ghosts.
Everything with “you don’t know the truth”, or “I show you the truth”, or “only I can fix this” has an element that I don’t particularly perceive as scientific or even delusional. God like.
At the end of the day, when it comes down to it, when I or anyone else switches on their system and presses play, it becomes an entirely subjective activity; after all, for me anyway it's about the music and love/passion for music. If it sounds good/I enjoy the presentation my system gives me, nothing else matters - not measurements, cost, brand, none of it. I want to get lost in the music, end of.
If the enjoyment of music is distilled down into a debatable set of measurements, or reduced to pure scientific theory, the soul of music is dead."
It seems extremists in subjective and objective schools will never understand anything out of their blindness spot...
I ONLY said what i said, not that my three past dac sounded the same...
I mean the difference which are there is not huge and does not compare to other embeddings controls especially acoustic one...
I said confirming Amir on this point that dac technology is mature technology and we can have very good dac at low price... Once this is said i LISTEN to deetermine my choice or the need for a change...
@Mahgister
"For example in dac... Dac is a mature technology, and we can now afford a very good one at relatively low price..."
See, this is where the comment breaks down. You can get a very good measuring one, but it may not sound that good. However ASR minions will argue that all Dacs that measure the same sound the same.
Your post is an example of despise that innerve everybody here...
You talk about what "neutrinos" coming from a cable? And you mock subjectivist hearing them...
It is very easy to mock subjectivist extremist views...
I dont like extremist of the subjectivist or objectivist kind...
Why ?
Because they focus on gear "magical " properties , MEASURED OR NOT....
The measuring crowd argue against the listening crowds that some qualitative phenomena cannot be there and the other side insulted claim and argue they are there...
Myself i dont focus on the GEAR....As this two sides did...
Audio is about acoustic and psycho-acoustic AT THE END...
Then i was able to tune my room to my likings with a result so astonishing that i learned this fact : there is no relation between before and after...
Is my small room could be deemed PERFECT acoustically like a great acoustic Hall designed by a pro? no...
Is my small room designed and tuned for my ears and biases ? Yes
Small room acoustic is not great Hall acoustic...( For example time and timing play in a different way for the ears reverberation can be used positively Etc )
i then learned why subjectivist and objectivist miss the boat in their respective living room...
In audio the most important component is a dedicated acoustic room... This is my truth... And for the immature dude who will say that my hearing is not perfect, i will answer for sure my hearing is not perfect ...But i was able to tune 100 Helmholtz resonators around my room distributed on critical spot by ears , and i did it in my imperfect way as a piano tuner tune a piano... It takes me 1 complete year of fun each day... End results : extraordinary at NO COST...It is not perfect precisely because my ears is not perfect but for me it was way better than no acoustic tuning ... There is NO COMPARISON ON ANY ACOUSTIC FACTORS between before and after..
The lesson : the gear is SECONDARY....
The hearing biases are not there to be ELIMINATED in the small owner’s room but to be used positively AS A SET OF BIASES TOOL to tune the room for the owner ears...This room is not a HALL for the crowds it is for me...( great hall acoustic is not small room acoustic, the same acoustic principles are used in a different way here)
if someone dont want to study basic acoustics and learned a lot by experiments; i recommend Dr. Choeri BACCH filters... It will be the same as my room but on a level of perfection reducing it to nothing to be compared.... My imperfect ears cannot beat DSP wisely used in a revolutionary psycho-acoustic design...
As in my room the sound from speakers ( or from your headphone) will be there in 3-D perfectly localized without timbre degradation... A feat i can only grossly and imperfctly approximate in my small room...
I am neither a subjectivist nor an objectivist extremist IDEOLOGUE quarelling as childs ...
i dont focus on gear, measured or not, i focus on acoustic...
The key to the best world system is acoustic and psycho-acoustic ...Ask Dr. Choueri... He dont mind the brand name of speakers, amplifier or turntable or Dac and their measures or their reviews...What matters first and last is the properties of the ears/brain experience as described in psycho-acoustic, or as used in an imperfect way in your room...Pick any good basic system and put it on his top level with acoustic... This is the way...I dont mind if you choose it by ears or by the numbers...I dont mind extremists...
Yeah but what about the neutrinos? Nobody checks for them. I have a cable with special shielding .....and I’m starting a go fund me account......
Amir and ASR get slagged on forums like this, where strawmen accusations and inaccurate claims are made about him and the site. It’s completely his right, and certainly worthwhile, for him to engage with some of this criticism to correct some of the misinformation.
That is rich to complain about Amir and ASR being slagged! ASR has developed slagging others into an art form. An ASR moderator stated ASR members must treat other ASR members with respect. However, continued to say non ASR members are NOT afforded the same respect. Let that sink in. Speaks volumes about ASR. ASR lack of respect is demonstrated repeatedly.
Amir may have started ASR with pure intentions. For the most part, he has stayed out of the mug his followers like to live in. Unfortunately, die hard followers routinely engage in slagging others. The issue is not whether criticism is deserved, it is the descent into a mixture of hostility, snark, insults, and skirting slander.
ASR feels justified in starting a fight, but is quick to cry foul when there is a response. Perfect example is an ongoing back and forth ASR started and escalated until a response appeared. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. ASR throws grenades, stop whining about grenades being returned.
To be clear, measurements are valuable, but do not characterize everything. Amir providing measurements as a service is fine, The issue is the uncontrolled vitriol of the hard core followers.
Back at the beginning of this thread I asked if the OP uses an auto tuner to tune their instrument or do they do it by ear? The OP responded both ways. That is the interesting point. Many of us have the ears, the fine hearing to tune an instrument, or a stereo, but still need the assurance of measurements. Being an engineer I also tend to want confirmation by measurement of what I am hearing- although less so these days as I have learned to trust what I hear more. At some point the best learn to work without a net.
A remarkable memory from years ago: I knew a musician with great hearing. He came over to my house and with a single tuning fork he tuned our piano. It sounded better than ever. Even something as basic as tuning an instrument by a skilled musician can sound better than just adjusting the strings (or tube length) to a set and measured frequency. Something about the feel of the instrument in a master’s hands that is superior to measurements. A good example was some decades ago a renowned flautist was being interviewed after giving a concert. The reporter, in jest handed the flautist a plastic recorder to see if he could play it. The master played an amazing tune on that plastic toy. Very impressive.
Measurements go only so far. The feel, the emotional response of the music and the memories make a human connection that no analyzer can quantify.
Correct me if I am wrong, but on ASR forum general consensus seems to be that, investing in tubes, analog rigs, cables or 'expensive' dacs is something that will not lead to a better sound, to say at least and if a person express different opinion will be ridiculed.
There is no need to say that everyone knows that the price does not equals the qualitiy or that there are many expensive and yet, poor sounding products.
Still, the criteria that people over there use in building their systems (which exclude all of the above mentioned products) seems very limited, imho and certainly is contrary to my humble experience.
There are so many products to choose from when building your system and despite how they messure, it would be anwise to buy any without prior listening
Building a 'good' sounding system requires experience, good hearing and certain level of craft with all that and its quite easy to get it all wrong. 'Poor' selection of cables with components that do not match with, is all it takes for a such result.
Even among the people who share my point of view there are big differences between experience,taste and of course systems and the way they sound.
So I am asking this question again. Why 'worry' or argue what Amir or anybody else thinks or does? Is he perhaps dictating how yours or mine system should look or sound? If anybody wishes to follow him or his methods, let them be. Their system, not yours. Why argue about such trivial things (like hi fi) ?
Marx books are not a problem, most marxists are ...
Etc...
Amir hobby to put useful information and his own opinion is a service then Amir is not the problem, some rude ideologue Objectivists may be the problem...As are some impolite and rude subjectivists ...
Someone as me experimenting for himself, is not the problem , gullible people passive consumers thinking that a cable is the key to audio, are not even wrong, because in spite of some difference beween cables it is never a main factor in audio...
I concur with this post :
To be clear, measurements are valuable, but do not characterize everything. Amir providing measurements as a service is fine, The issue is the uncontrolled vitriol of the hard core followers.
I concur with this post too :
Back at the beginning of this thread I asked if the OP uses an auto tuner to tune their instrument or do they do it by ear? The OP responded both ways. That is the interesting point. Many of us have the ears, the fine hearing to tune an instrument, or a stereo, but still need the assurance of measurements. Being an engineer I also tend to want confirmation by measurement of what I am hearing- although less so these days as I have learned to trust what I hear more. At some point the best learn to work without a net.
A remarkable memory from years ago: I knew a musician with great hearing. He came over to my house and with a single tuning fork he tuned our piano. It sounded better than ever. Even something as basic as tuning an instrument by a skilled musician can sound better than just adjusting the strings (or tube length) to a set and measured frequency. Something about the feel of the instrument in a master’s hands that is superior to measurements. A good example was some decades ago a renowned flautist was being interviewed after giving a concert. The reporter, in jest handed the flautist a plastic recorder to see if he could play it. The master played an amazing tune on that plastic toy. Very impressive.
Measurements go only so far. The feel, the emotional response of the music and the memories make a human connection that no analyzer can quantify.
I’m at a complete loss as to what the moderator is up to, they are even deleting pleas for civility. It seems like some of you on either side of this debate are having the same problem.
It’s only possible to answer specific claims. Vague broadsides are just that. You have to show how Erin or Amir measured incorrectly, or there’s nothing to discuss.
It’s very similar to the attitude I take towards cables etc., you have to show any difference exists in the first place before it is useful to discuss the character of the difference.
As for group pile-ons, I don't think one site has a lot on the other in that department.
I’ll close with my signature quotes from ASR, which are a good guideline to avoiding a pile-on over there.
“Beliefs are hypotheses to be tested, not treasures to be guarded." - Philip Tetlock
”We have been drawing attention….to the absolute necessity to separate the quantitative judgement of audio from the qualitative judgement by removing loudness as a bias. It has been ignored, and the audiophile business carries on its own merry way. Those who work in sound professionally know that this is lesson 1 semester 1 in audiology: the very core of the science. So we have given up trying to educate on this point, as every audio engineer has eventually done over the last half century, as the usual audiophile has an emotional need which cannot be reached by logic, reasoning and science.” - Alan Shaw
If Amir is worthless or a charlatan as some here claim, why are you bothering to read and post about him? Are you trying to protect people from him? Are you St. George slaying the dragon? Or, perhaps you have too much time on your hands and this is the best you can come up with for amusement?
My voice would be completely lost on the Internet if people didn't see value in my work and didn't talk about it. And continue to support the activity by sending me huge volume of audio gear to test.
Pretty much nails it. I'm not an active participant on ASR, but for pete's sake, the notion they are all zealots following a cult leader...come on. This is not the 118th Congress!
Even something as basic as tuning an instrument by a skilled musician can sound better than just adjusting the strings (or tube length) to a set and measured frequency. Something about the feel of the instrument in a master’s hands that is superior to measurements.
Indeed, piano tuning is a bit of an art, as you have to set the temperance intervals slightly out of tune deliberately, and it will be slightly different for every piano. Tuning it like open guitar strings with a tuner would sound horrendous. But all of that is still just physics, and measurable. Pianos are musical instruments, not music reproduction.
Audio recording reproduction is related for sure to the gear design...But it is relative to the room acoustic potentials too...
We can use this analogy between piano and tuning though , because a small specific room coupled to specific speakers and gear is not a perfectly designed DSP system as in Dr. Choueri perfect design compared to it... The gear coupled to the room is like an imperfect out of tune instrument... It resemble an instrument to be tuned for the ears pleasure, because the different distribution of the pressure zones of the room are like the cord of a piano must be controlled and acted upon to compensate for the gear limitations and the owner hearing limitations using measures and listenings to improve it or "tuned" it ... Small room acoustic is not Great Hall acoustic, different acoustic architecture completely because of the difference in reverberation time positive and negative part among other things...
The acoustician , or here the improvised acoustician, the room’s owner, may and can tune it like a piano tuner tune a piano indeed ... Imperfect results are not bad results if they astonishingly improve the experience at no cost...
Electronical Reproduction of a recording and small room acoustic translation are two different things..
They fuse together in the revolutionary design of BACCH filters system for example in a virtual room processing technology...It will be my ONLY upgrade one day...
But when i was alone in my room i tuned it, as imperfctly it may be at the end , it was astonishing for my ears, and with them... With succees FOR ME and for my experience AT NO COST ... And i learned a lot in the process...
Audio is about psycho-acoustic first and last, not about the gear market nor it is about the welcome falsification of the market claims by Amir , so useful it can be and it is...
But before anyone draws an analogy to audio reproduction, pianos are instruments, not reproduction.:)
@mahgister i prefer to make everything as accurate as possible in the reproduction chain and THEN EQ (or BACCH, as you’ve mentioned a dozen times) to taste. If your electronics are adding fixed EQ or distortion, if your speakers aren’t flat with even dispersion you are in the circle of confusion. Certainly we can season at the end, but if you don’t start with fidelity to the original, you are nowhere, and varying masters will cause no end of trouble.
I’ve not heard BACCH. I do use convolution filters I created from REW (something I learned at ASR!). They make a huge difference, especially if you start in the right place. You can’t solve for poor dispersion with EQ. You can’t correct distortions, or FR varying with weird loads in the electronics.
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