Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?
It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
I think he made me realize how unimportant measurements are. For one thing, I own the Magnepan LRSs. Somehow they sound great while measuring poorly. For another, those cheap DACs that measure great, are not, I found out. Same thing with phono stages. I love science but literally all that matters is how it sounds. And as others said above, it shows how tribal and biased humans can be, among other things. It might be better as a study in human psychology. |
Biases are not only mere impediments, except when we must control them for the sake of objective measurements and other science or engineering goals... Biases are at the same time the source of our motivation and the expression of our motivation... Many people dont seems to understand that, biases are COMPLEX phenomenon...As Placebos are...And Placebos are not only mere deception or illusions, but phenomenon that must be controlled for example in drugs trials... But doctors and mothers USE them positively... If not they are incompetent doctors and not much loving mothers...In the same way we can use our hearing biases positively in acoustic if we are conscious of them to begin with and play with them in listenings experiments ... Electronical measurements are no more the optimal road to explain and describe audio qualities than subjective listenings... It is incredible that people cannot understand that we must LEARN HOW TO LISTEN... And the only way is through acoustic experiments not by changing gear... If it was the case people owning 50 heaphones and 50 amplifiers and 50 dac will be listening experts , but they are not... They simply know more about branded name products as salesman ... it seems people enjoy too much disagreeing to understand why subjectivist and objectivist miss the main point about audio experience and this for exactly the same reason...Their focus is on the gear ... I wrote that knowing that tomorrow people will make the same preposterous arguments pitting subjectivist against objectivist, like the egg big end groupie against the small end groupie In Gulliver travels...
«The sound source qualities did not exist before the act of conscious hearing because the qualities related to the sound source, for example the ripeness of a fruit observed by tapping on it cannot exist and be perceived if we do not LEARN how to listen to the fruits on a table market...We must learn HOW TO LISTEN »-- Anonymus Acoustician
«All men must learn the hard way how to listen to their non binary partner or to their wife »-- Groucho Marx 🤓 |
Yes I found his limitations reflect a technician’s perspective and understanding of the measurements he takes and the claims he makes. I find his resistance to change does not reflect a scientific approach. His lack of curiosity is disappointing in a role purportedly for social benefit. I shrug my shoulders and have moved on. I have learned a lot about electronics electrical theory and quantum mechanics as well as materials science through research and reading beyond ASR. I learned none of this within ASR. Basically I’ve stopped bothering with him or ASR as a source of information. YMMV. |
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Amir caters to certain audience. Those who like someone else to do the thinking for them. They love to hear that his reference professional grade $99 Chinese DAC measures better than a $5500 DAC as voltage coming out of his $99 preamp outputs. Listening test are almost never mentioned. These people go on about their day feeling great that some sucker spent $5500 on a DAC when they bought a better performing product and saved $5400 in the process. |
@audphile1 : go to ASR and read the review of the Chord M-Scaler. Amir listened to it on his system (Revel speakers/Levinson amp) and stated his impressions. Regarding my income level I own enough HiFi gear - both tube and transistor - to equip a retail store! |
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I have a relative who grows singing birds, always trying to find the 'best' singing one, some he raises from eggs up, some he catches in the wild and than breed them with domestic ones, all in almost desperate trail to find that ever illusive 'perfect' song. He is no alone in that endeavour and has a bunch of friends who also meets up, listen to each others birds and of course bitter argue about which bird sings the best. As far as I know, nobody knows exactly how should the 'best' bird song should sound and yet, they are very passionate about it. It is apsurd in a way and if I did not know of audiophile world I would look them as a group of weirdos. Now, why I am writing all this? If you stop and think for a moment, there should be no reason why anybodys opinion about bird song or something trivial as hi fi (or anything else) should spoil your feeling or joy about it. Writing bitter posts or aguing, or even giving second thought about it is a total waste of time, isnt it? |
I would say that ASR has not changed my mind about much, certainly not on the SQ of boxes I know well, but it has reinforced my impression that applying a dusting of science and absolute assertions to incomplete (or worse) experiments will persuade a lot of people. I did have a greater respect for those who bother to measure everything, based largely on my own laziness, until ASR got me to look at how far from complete (or even fair) much of what passes for wisdom on that side of the fence seems to me to be. I was less thus dismissive until ASR encouraged me to read carefully: I came to listen & learn - and stayed to scoff. |
Ignorant dont know what means "psycho-acoustic" concepts... Then they pit themselves one against the others with half truths worst than lies... Simple... The more aggressive they are, and there is aggressive minds in the two side, the more ignorant they are... Search for the word "psycho-acoustic"...And the feud will be over for those with a brain...
By the most basic psycho-acoustic principle there is an ORDER : the listening subject matter more and come first over the measurements of any kind, be it acoustic or electronical or mechanical...Especially in small room acoustic which is an art based on science... Once this is said thinking that because we like listening to a piece of gear it is enough to go from it to higher quality sound experience is illusory and without foundation at the end... We must also know and understand why we like it...It is a process called learning how to listen...Buying gear dont replace acoustic experiments...Buying pacoustic panels is not enough at all... Sorry to spell this unconvenient truth...
«There is no subject nor any object before the act of thinking» Anonymus philosopher |
Jjss49-ah, you are a gullable sheep that doesn’t use your ears nor your brain, no wonder you like ASR and the clown in the WH. I’ve only watched snippets of ASR because he’s hard to watch. I watched the video where he went after GR Research which he looked like a fool, the other times, he wanted to promote a cheap product and wanted to degrade a more expensive product. In all audio equipment, there are a few measurements that I look at before I buy to see if they would be a synergy fit with my other gear, I would never use measurements to try to determine what a piece would sound like because you can’t. Nobody can tell me what is the difference in sound quality if 1 product has .005 distortion compared to 1 that has .0005? Tube gear measures much worse the SS gear but prefer the sound of tubes. The only measurement I need to determine if I like the sound is what my ear tells me |
Amir's reviews did influence one or two of my purchasing decisions. Had I not read them, I might have focused on other components based on a few glowing, but mostly subjective opinions, or on what was available in a local HiFi shop. ASR alerted me to alternatives that (a) were less expensive, and (b) tested better. Example 1: I bought the Matrix Audio Element X (streamer/DAC) instead of the more expensive PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Example 2: I bought the Benchmark AHB2 instead of a locally-available power amp. Both the Element X and the AHB2 were sold with generous return policies, so I did get a chance to review features and "trust my ears" before making a final commitment. In any case, it wouldn't have been very practical (esp. since I live in a rural area) to personally compare dozens of alternatives, trusting only my ears, rather than winnowing down the choices by reading product reviews and test results. ASR isn't the only source I considered. I read product reviews and owner comments. Many of them seemed to be mutually reinforcing enough to make a try-out worthwhile. Before committing to the Element X, I did order one other DAC/streamer, which I returned. |
If we accept that the quality of our music reproduction equipment cannot be MEASURED, then we simply declared it ART or TASTE. The beauty is (and feeding our hobby), that is it now is totally subjective, since TASTE is the DEFINITION OF SUBJECTIVE. Therefore, I hereby declare that my $400 Onky with my speakers and my $100 CD player is the BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD irrespective of price. Now if ONE person here questions that, he/she does NOT get the point of what 'taste' is. It is SOLELEY 'in the eye of the beholder'. Even if you may argue that there thousands who disagree, I am stil right. Subjective is Beautiful.
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The "quality of our music reproduction equipment" can be effectively measured and evaluate in small room varying acoustic conditions...The gear dont manifest his quality directly to our brain bypassing the relations of the drivers speakers/room/ears...Then "taste" is then as you just say a meaningless subjective revendication as in a children case saying to his mother, i dont like pea soup but only chicken soup...Children must learn how to eat and why and must learn to use their taste..
Taste is a subjective right with no meaning outside ourself...Claiming it valid is simply refusing to learn about our own limitations and to learn how to listen... Crocodile taste and love only rotten meat...Mankind may and must learn cooking and the art of listening ... You probably dont even know how is the real potential S.Q. or defects of your system because they are not experienced in an optimally dedicated acoustic room conditions...Then our "taste" is a passive seating position, an abdication ... Some solve it by upgrades, but purchasing is most of the time also a passive attitude...It is the reason why some people to cure frustrations own tons of audio materials....I know because i purchase 10 headphones before learning the lesson... Taste must be educated, we are not crocodile...We must go active with simple listening experiments to learn about concept as reberberation time, timbre, dynamic, transients, immersiveness , sound sources differentiation and dimensions and many other concepts in experimenting with them .... In psycho-acoustic it is a principle to vary measures, electronical one or mechanical or acoustical one, to experience specific changes and their meaning correlation in relation to our biases and taste... My acoustic room for example was optimal for me, it cannot be for everyone...Because my head diameter and my ears geometry, and my gear and speakers and acoustic content in my room differ from yours, it isnot my taste the explanation here but acoustic ... acoustician dont create small room acoustic or great Hall acoustic with their "taste" but with their experiences... What other reason? Because small room acoustic of audiophile dont use time and timing waves or reflected waves and reverberation in the same way as in a great Hall and the gear and room must be adapted to one another for specific ears, and a great Hall is designed for a seating crowd...
Subjective is the origin, objective is a conquest...What is really beautiful is being able to relate consciously the two sides of the journey ...
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Yes, Amir has definitely changed my opinion on some gear. Take his work for the value it adds to our hobby, nothing more. His work is only one part of the equation however. You can still listen to the equipment, you can judge the quality of the build or the components, or you can simply like the looks. All of these matter. Why attack the guy who provides objective proof of certain factors based on solid electrical and physical principles? His measurements can clearly show in many cases that the piece of equipment cannot be capable of what the manufacturer or the hype says. There is far too much snake oil and fallacy in the audio hobby, and it's good to have something objective for at least one part of evaluating electronic gear. Yes, a piece of equipment can sound good and not measure well, those are not exclusive of each other in audio. Nobody is saying that you can measure how something sounds but it's absolute fact that some measurements can show capabilities of the electronics to do certain things. That is all it is. |
Love this stuff, that’s what entertainment is all about. An audio debate with the same outcome, people sitting in the same seats as when started. Things get heated with monitors missing the odd name-calling and some ignorantly calling someone out only to have personal history and product slam the door on their point. It ain’t all bells, whistles, and pretty lights there is audio. Enjoy it.
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Yes it is. These forums seem to expose a herd mentality that mobilizes defenders of the faith when folks drive outside of the "acceptable" lane. Based on the comments in this thread, Amir and his measurements are clearly outside of the lane. Thanks for reminding us this is a hobby. |
@mahgister- your writing is dense and somewhat difficult to understand sometimes, but I think I have an idea based on my past experience. When I started playing in the studios in the 70’s, I thought I played pretty well, which I guess is why. I got hired. But I was shocked when I heard that my first playbacks sounded significantly different from what I thought I played. In other words- I was hearing what I thought I played, not what I actually played. It was only after many sessions I was able to train my ears/brain to hear what I was actually playing and make it sound identical to the taped playback. |
I have used and owned a few of the products Amir has talked about. He does his measurements and says it’s not doing much or anything. Well, I can hear the changes quickly. Be it a power conditioner, PS Audio Regenerator (my favorite), or a quality power strip. As for power cords, they impact the power supplies and how they react to the sonics of the gear and are very easy to hear again. Its not phycological, because you buy it and bring home then hear a difference that is not there, it is there you hear it, unless you like to delude yourself and I don’t. I own many power cords that I have in storage, the other night while playing my system and ML 532H amp, I thought about the PS Audio Xtreme plus power cords I have and have not used in a while, well I pulled it out, and plug it in and let the amp warm backup, this, of course, cost me nothing, so I cared little if I heard a change I like or not. A few hours later and hit play on my SACD player and immediately I heard the difference from my other power cord a Seltech, it had more body and more presence, and the image was solid but also more relaxed sounding, while not as detailed, it more than made up for it by sounding more tone and color. So it is not that the Seltech Ruby was bad, it is just that each made the amp and what came out of my speakers give a different presentation. All the vocals were there the vocals but they all came across differently due to how the power cord was interacting with the power supply within the ML 532H and it driving the speaker. You could blindfold me, spin me in circles and sit me down and I could tell you 10 out of 10 if the Ruby was plugged in or the PS Audio Plus. Tests and specs are just that, how things interact when being used together is always an unknown till you have in your own system. Is there a lot of half-truths and marketing BS in audio sure there is, but experience hobbyists and listeners know better. A friend had old MC30 amps by McIntosh refurbished, they were 1959 tube amps and he had a 20K well-reviewed amp, he pulled that and inserted the MC30 1959 amp! Amir would test and spec out nowhere as good as the current amp, he listened and listened and listened, and he said he never heard his system sound as real, musical as it sounded with the MC30, not his past amps all 20K and up. He was shocked at how this old 1959 amp could make more music than the state-of-the-art current amp or any other amp he had in the system over the years. Specs and graphs are one thing, what we all know we can hear is another, like cooking you pick your flavors and spices to what taste good to you, audio system as well. Amir way just by the DAC with the best spec and your done, preamp, amp, and so on. Well, my friend would now tell you differently and that is to his own hands-on experience from an outcome he had not expected much like me swapping ONE power cord on my amp. |
My simple answer is no. Expanding, I started the hobby in the late ‘70 when box stores preached the work of Hirsch and true boutique audiophile vendors were in their infancy. These new proprietors taught me to listen and not rely on measurements. A shout out to Audio Breakthroughs, American Audiophile (now gone) and Ears Nova. I have listened since. As a regulatory affairs professional and quality engineer working closely with medical device electromechanical design engineers, and aligned with others here who have said the same, measurements are critical in the design phase and quality control phase. Then optimization must prevail by listening and a purchase decision must be by listening. To an inside thread - with the utility supply in my area, my system, and to my ears clean power by conditioning made a significant improvement in all areas of reproduction. |
I don't watch his videos, but frequently refer to his written reviews. I appreciate the technical content and analysis. I regard the measurements, especially for electronic equipment, as a good starting point for evaluating equipment. In my opinion well designed electronics should at a minimum have flat frequency response and low noise and distortion. Of course I also follow up with listening, in my own system where possible. Has he changed my mind? I don't really think so, I just use his site as another tool to further my knowledge and enjoyment of this hobby. |
hahaha - the subject of this thread (a cult follower) is evidently pathetically thin skinned too... deleted my earlier post... how lame is that???? the clown or the former clown? not sure who ya talkin’ about yes, i often have listening parties with no speakers at all, just an oscilloscope! i can recognize steely dan just by the scope trace!!! 🤣😁😂 |
I think that Amir, in a round about way, reminds us of how powerful our biases are.
Good point. These days there are entire industries devoted to the science of fooling us by exploiting our psychological frailties. Call it marketing or call it plain lying, there's little doubt that it now features in all walks of life. Folks like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and Rolf Dobelli, Dan Arialy and others have made a good living by shedding light on how our minds can be manipulated. You only have to look at the recent MoFi controversy. All of a sudden, previously content customers and reviewers became unhappy with the sound quality only after it emerged that some digital masters had been used instead of the advertised analogue ones.
Sites like ASR can go a long way towards stripping away this veneer of slick marketing spin. That very visible exchange between Amir and GR - Research was no doubt mildly entertaining, but I didn't see why Amir should single out Danny Richie. Not when there's plenty of other miscreants out there propagating equal amounts of 'blinding with science' falsehoods. Besides, whatever ASR put out can easily be challenged or responded if the manufacturer so wishes. That free interchange of ideas and opinions is largely what this hobby is all about, isn't it? Ok, there's also the music, but you know what I mean. Ultimately it is all about money and business, and it's not too difficult to see why some folks here get very hot and bothered by that fact. |
If it sounds good why do any measurements matter? Good measuring stuff often sounds bad and vice versa. For the engineer and for the geek factor it's fun but otherwise? But we want reassurance. We don't believe our own ears. Actually in my case that's true because I can't hear much over 10Khz and a bunch of noise can happen above that. So for instance, my Mani 1 sounds great to me but my daughter can hear the hiss. And I tried the Mani 2 which has less hiss and returned it. The female vocals were grainy. That's a no go for me. Yes it's quieter - for young ears - and the bass is a little better but I focus on female vocals. So the point is, it's how it sounds, to you. |
The whole point about learning HOW TO LISTEN with acoustic is just that : we learn in the process that we can trust our ears for the realization of our audio dreams... In acoustic biases induced by the gear and specific ears/brain is not something to be eliminated as in the market testing of products or as in the design with engineering standards, but something that can motivate us to create the speakers/room to our liking FOR OUR EARS which will do the tuning ...We can and must educate our biases not erase them...... |
He's never bothered me as much as some. I watch his videos because I enjoy watching stuff about gear. I don't like the ASR forum. Funny story though. I just purchased a Mola Mola DAC. I saw that he did a review of it where he thought it measured well. I found myself feeling even better about my purchase. Yeah I know.... dumb. More a lesson how "stuff" gets in our heads without us realizing it. |
Back in the 70s in Boston, before Car Talk took its time slot on WBUR, we had a show called Shop Talk, with an objectivist BU physics professor and a subjectivist psychoanalyst bouncing ideas and taking calls. The science guy was very like Amir. |
So you needed measurements to tell you which pair of interconnects you keep? Blue pill vs. red pill. You couldn’t hear a difference by…. listening to them? Yeah, I know, shocking!
And the same measurements are just as good as Mola Mola Tambaqui on other, way cheaper, DACs, like various Topping. Have you seen the point ranking system he has? So why in the world would you be happy spending $16,000+ in a DAC, when you can get the same measurements and points, and even more points, with a DAC costing a few hundred bucks, a small fraction of your Mola Mola
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Amir has changed my mind about some things, I like that he's taking on the high end of the hobby and offering a system of checks and balances. Remember that his site has no advertising, so take that as you may. But he's influenced me on the subject of DACs. I used to yearn for some expensive R2R DAC, Denafrips or Holo, or even DCS or MSB, but I've since abandoned that kind of coveting. DACs are a solved problem now and the goal is transparency devoid of color. My DAC is extremely cheap by audiophile standards yet I find that it sounds fantastic, and its purchase was definitely influenced by ASR measurements. I also once yearned for boat anchor amps to power my inefficient speakers. That is no more, as I have discovered high end Class D. My ears and my back and my wallet are all thankful for that. But I'm no sheep in the herd as I'm a vinylphile and I have to defend its honor on the ASR forum. And I love my old Maggies despite the small sweet spot and the need for a sub. With the addition of Magna Riser stands they've overtaken my Vandersteens as top dogs in my system, despite the price difference. I feel no need to upgrade, not even to the LRS+, never mind expensive Revels, the ASR favorites. I've been very subjective in the past, used to depend on salesman for taste, but that's changed. My system is affordable but I think it sounds incredible, can't stop listening and I get lost in the music, which is what it's all about. To bring this level of sound quality to the masses is something admirable in my book. |
"So you needed measurements to tell you which pair of interconnects you keep? Blue pill vs. red pill. You couldn’t hear a difference by…. listening to them? Yeah, I know, shocking!"
Yeah this is an interesting one. They may indeed sound the same but it's obvious that the conductivity of the plugs is better on the one. The other reaches the same low impedance if I push and rub the meter leads onto the plug. So it may be that most of the time the connection is strong enough to overcome this. But much depends on the actual plug mechanical connection. How tight it is. The other interconnect plugs are made of actual gold. I think the bad measuring ones are probably brass. They are less likely to hold a good connection. So here is a case where putting a meter on it and measuring is very instructive. I'm not going to take a chance on the brass connectors that measure badly even though they may sound fine. It's possible that they may not stay that way. And I realize that I bought some crappy cables. They looked sort of gold in the pics. Fools gold.
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"And the same measurements are just as good as Mola Mola Tambaqui on other, way cheaper, DACs, like various Topping. Have you seen the point ranking system he has? So why in the world would you be happy spending $16,000+ in a DAC, when you can get the same measurements and points, and even more points, with a DAC costing a few hundred bucks, a small fraction of your Mola Mola" Yes, the measurements are the same, BUT the Mola Mola 1) sounds a lot better 2) has far better build quality and is not likely to fail in a short period of time like on particular piece of Chinese crap touted by the minion master. (Does he get a cut?) |
Electronic measurements of gear did not correlate linearly and perfectly well with listenings impressions... Paradoxically, any designer must use very precise set of recognized standards measurements as general starting point but they use after that their alchemical electrical art... But it is an art, a craft, not a mere learned technological recipe .... They learned to put complex parameters together and figure out by experience how playing with them to make miracles happen.. Nelson Pass or Atmasphere for example are artists too not just engineers..
But there is a more exact correlation between acoustic and psycho-acoustic measurements and subjective experience... Exemple : Smyth realizer or virtual room acoustic with Dr. Choueri are based on acoustic and psycho-acoustic measurements ... Then subjectivist and objectivist see half of the truth and are blind to the other half... They forget that the gear components must be acoustically embedded in a room to be LISTENED TO OPTIMALLY... |
Got it. Understand. Perfectly clear now. Carry on. Keep on fighting 💪
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Amir has one of the finest measuring systems available and is a complete moron in his ability to use it to its potential. Add to this his methodology and lack of understanding as to how a system functions and the result is obvious: regarding him as anything other than a hacker fulfilling his ego driven necessity to make a complete fool of himself is a HARD pass.
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