ACTUAL MUSICAL SOUND VS. MEASUREMENTS

I must be out of the loop but I could not care less.

I'm returning to "audio" conversations after a long pause (25 years). If anything, my impression is that the emphasis on measurements in 'professional', published reviews (as opposed to comments/conversations in forums) and in marketing materials is relatively lower now than it was in the late 1990s - with some exceptions (e.g. ASR).

I think this may be due to two factors: 1) the fragmentation of the 'review' market with more and more 'low resource' individuals/influencers/youtubers and whatnot rather than magazines with labs etc; and 2) the fact that component quality and consistency of electronics (particularly digital, but also amps) has improved enormously.

The conversation (or squabble, occasionally) among consumers/aficionados doesn't seem to me to be very different from back then. There are a few 'objectivists' and a few 'feeling-driven' folks, with a large majority that looks at both sides. As usual, the extremes drive most of the noise.

I’m with Calvin in that I don’t think that measurements tell the whole story, and very annoyed by audiophiles who use them as their defying criteria 

@mahler123 I agree it’s very frustrating. Because you have guys on the internet who have not heard your system in your system in your environment and then spout a bunch psychotic allegedly scientific babble about what you are hearing and not hearing in your system a system that they will never hear and combinations of equipment, components , cables and rooms that they have never heard. 

Beating up on "measurementalists" is one of this site's favorite hobbies.

I agree that when that approach becomes dogmatic and myopic it is not worth reading. But they're also not worth responding to. So, I'm not aggravated by them.

@dlevi67 all great points. But what I see is increased nastiness with the arrogance.  I expect today’s young people to not have the level of respect that is expected nowadays.  But some of the older audiophiles are the ones that surprise me. They make personal attacks. I have had them find out what I do as a lawyer and use that. You work for a company and use that. You sell cables and use that.  You paid all that money for an amp or dac or cables when a lot cheaper stuff would have been fine and use that. You allowed a company to sell you snake oil because you are a sucker argument is the one that is used on steroids! 

@hilde45 i get what you are saying.  I guess I’m surprised about the intellectual arrogance that some of them have towards folks they don’t know and don’t know the level of experience they have 

I’m over the whole "Prove it, Bro!" thing. It’s usually based on ignorance and a lack of experience, coupled with an inherent need to try to prove their cheap equipment is just as good as an expensive piece of equipment. Why argue with someone like that?

The second someone uses the term "snake oil", I completely tune out of the conversation and pretty much write off whatever they have to say.

Arrogance bad.  Measurements good.  Two different things. 

There is also the other side of the coin, people who ignore psychology/psychoacoustics and the limits of physics and human hearing.

"I put this cable in and it sounded better", but no indication whether old and new one was swapped in several times: second = better, and confirmation bias.

Or the "break in" aka habituation. I have yet to see a blind A/B test where anybody can tell brand new from broken in piece of equipment >8/10. I don't believe in break in, not for one second unless there is some sort of demonstration. The more outlandish the claim, the more rigorous the demonstration needs to be.

Re ignorance of physics, e.g. Fremer/TAS in the context of TT speed consistency re-parroting marketing material that 1 arc second may be audible. Just the slightest amount of reflection will make it clear that this is physics nonsense.

That coupled with dealers being unwilling/incapable of setting up demos. I asked Upscale Audio to set up a demo to show that TT pinths (as opposed to carts) can sound different, and despite plenty of notice they were unwilling/unable to do that. What's someone who has healthy skepticism and a scientific mind to do? Measurements is a good first approach to cut through the marketing hyperbole. It's not everything, but it is a start. 

I think the point is the more aggressive criticism of those who use different methods to choose their gear. I don't care for measurements very much, believing they are very limited though potentially useful. It's perfectly fine with me that some prefer to decide mostly based on measurements. I have my own "testing" protocols that work just fine for me. Others have very different methods. 

calvinj

... am I the only one that has had it with overly pushy audiophiles that push measurements as the end all be all ... obnoxious ones that talk down to you because of the measurements of your system or equipment is not perfect for them?

I don't take them seriously. It's apparent to me that there are some who come here solely for their joy of creating conflict and starting arguments. They're not audiophiles. They're lonely people seeking engagement.

Upscale Audio is there to sell product not let cynics or tire kickers waste time and money.

I've built my system for my own pleasure, whether it meets some other person's objective or subjective criteria for quality doesn't phase me in the least. Have to admit in my younger days there were times when I let other's dictate my choices. As one progresses along their own path the need for other's approval lessens. I suppose if one is failing along these lines other's judgements will have far more impact.

@coralkong you summed it up in a nutshell.  I’m tired of it too. Why do they do that. Look we invest at different levels in this hobby. I get so sick of people trying to show how much much smarter than we are because they spent less money and we are foolish because we spent more money. Jeez! 

@sns great points. All great points.

@cleeds yup I get what you are saying. They are lonely folks looking for arguments. 

Measurements for many implies logic. Unfortunately that is a simplistic/flawed approach when building a HEA system.

It's always been par for the coarse in high end audio, where there are those perfectionist who like to measure everything up and down and from side to side.  As they say, "it takes every kind of people."  And high end audio is no exception.  Me personally, in over 40 years in high end audio, I never once purchased a single audio component based on how it measured.  I never cared.  I always followed my ears and my heart.  Happy listening.

@kennymacc exactly. We all have a sound we like and we seek it out. No measurements needed. 

@dayglow agreed 

The only specs I care about are output at 8 4 and 2 ohms and current. 

Physics and the room will win if the system isn't dialed in. So...both listening and measuring are essential. To many in audio, what I said is kindergarten-level knowledge.

It is time-consuming and meticulous, but the back and forth btw measuring with REW, then adjusting, then listening and repeating really dials things in, including the subs.

Wow, how the hate flows… If ya don’t like or believe mechanical measurements cool, if your happy with what ya hear cool. It should be simple and that is..Shut up and go with what pleasures a person. My system was put together using all forms of information, it’s big IMO looks and sounds great and that’s all that matters.

“Don’t worry be happy”  lol

I guess if you don't want to do the work and actually analyze what you are hearing or you're a novice that hasn't been into audio for very long, then measurements can be attractive. Armed with your measurements you can go online and act like you are wise in the ways of the audiophile.

Personally, I listen with my ears, not a spread sheet.

@calvinj 

"I guess I’m surprised about the intellectual arrogance that some of them have towards folks they don’t know and don’t know the level of experience they have "

Can you really be surprised these days? We live in a time of anonymity, vitriol and the need to force your opinion on the world, regardless of its authenticity. 

@tony1954 you are right about the way folks talk to each other. People are online thumb thuggin. Hiding behind keyboards saying things online that they wouldn’t in person 

Objective vs Subjective has been around forever.  All credibility is lost when measurements are used to claim a $200 and $2000 piece of gear will undeniably sound the same if the they measure the same.  Not stopping there, any item deemed expensive (typically more than a few hundred dollars) is frequently labeled "snake oil". The next step is to hurl insults at any individual choosing to purchase expensive items.  Finally, the promoter of cheap but well measuring equipment personally spends well into 6 figure land for a system.  Hypocrite with no credibility.

I might have some insight based on my own reactions to my own experience.

As a scientist (I am actually a scientist), I really hate the notion that I can hear the difference between interconnects and speakers cables, and it really PO's me that I can hear the difference with power cables.
There is no objective reason that I accept for power cables to make a difference, yet I can hear it. Cost does not seem to be a contributor, I have a pair of Blue Jeans Cables interconnects that I greatly prefer over a "nice" $500.00 pair, and the pair I am using now cost under $300.00.

Not all people deal well with this type of dissonance, and some of them lash out at others because of it.
I really appreciate the hard work that Alpha Audio has been doing. They are conducting the actual research that Amir at ASR only pretends to do. He is certainly not doing science, I am not sure he even knows what a scientist does.

In my mind, the issue is we just do not know how to measure a signal for its character. My field is like that, 20 years ago we did not have access to the tech to conduct the research I do on a daily basis today.

I suppose some folks really can't hear a difference, but I think most of the hostile ones do, and are angry about it.

So many devices measure great.   Some affordable ones even push the limits of the very equipment used to test them.   Says a lot , but how does it sound????  

If someone wants to put a system together entirely based on specs more power to them.   It could sound great, but probably not as good as a system that was curated on how the individual pieces sound together.    

With only one caveat, I have always let my ears do the talking. That caveat is, does the amplifier has enough umph ( watts and current and stability ) to run the speakers I have at the time. Other than that,  I don’t care.

Measurements matter. Two factors. You usually need to combine them with perceptive listening. Subjective feeds objective and vice versa.

But some measurements matter more than others in the hands of an experienced designer. One who measures and listens. My late friend Murray Zeligman modified cheap Grado cartridges in the 1970s. And he measured AND he listened. I once saw him look at a frequency curve , square wave and separation curve for a cartridge without knowing what it was. I still recall him saying he wanted the cartridge; he knew what it sounded like. It was an EPC 205 MK4 cartridge. We bought them. He was right. And it wasn't just luck. I saw him do similar things.

But this was particular cases. He never claimed he could do it all the time. But he sure was good some of the time.

At least with speakers the goal should be to better correlate measurements with what you hear and how specific room shapes, sizes and treatments influence both. 

@calvinj 

Some live by:
“It’s/they’re wrong until proven right” or
“It’s/I’m right until proven wrong”
both based on their individual judgment often clouded by a stubbornness most often based on fear of admitting to be wrong - their linked self-esteem takes a hit.

These types of people will always be around. Recognizing them would help deal with them “objectively” which is much better than taking it personally

I believe a large majority of naysayers, many who refuse try themselves, are being stubborn to “not” spending above measurements because they don’t want to face the truth of unaffordability.  Sometimes envy morphs to anger/indignant

Like most things…there is very useful RESEARCH being done on the ear / brain… vs willy nilly measurements and silly 8 out of ten validity criteria….

The music induced goosebump hedonic treadmill can be intoxicating …my plan is to stay on it as long as possible….

Susan Rogers book is excellent….if you are open minded to art and science…

I believe measurements can be useful in making buying decisions but they certainly don’t dictate what I do. Ive bought higher-end cables, etc. that the objectivist would scoff at. With that said, this is not a one-way street. I have read quite a few vicious personal attacks made against objectivists on this site. i’ve noticed that people get very emotional about this hobby and a great number of them are intolerant of views that differ from their own.
If you think that cables, don’t make a difference, buy inexpensive cables. On the other hand, I don’t understand why the objectivists create so much anger for those who believe that cables, etc. make a difference. After all, people like amir cant dictate how you spend your money. He has an opinion. No reason to take it personally.

I think you generally get what you pay for in audio just like with most products. Those who believe differently are certainly entitled to their point of view. Why should I be offended by that? Buy what makes you happy. No reason for agitation at others who have a different point of view. This is listening to recorded music, not a Titanic struggle of good versus evil.

with that said, a good cable debate can be pretty entertaining, even though there is no chance it will add to the sum total of our knowledge on the subject

I care about measurements only to the extent it helps with matching components. As someone mentioned the ohm rating on a speaker matched to the power/current of an amp or the phono cartridge to phono amp, etc. As far as other kinds of measurements … not at all interested. I listen to the sound and music, not measurements.

Where's Jason Bourne when you need him :))

Beating the horse which has died so many times.

Beating the horse which has died so many times.

And yet there are 39 posts already. Whoops, make it 40. 

I care about measurements only to the extent it helps with matching components. As someone mentioned the ohm rating on a speaker matched to the power/current of an amp or the phono cartridge to phono amp, etc. As far as other kinds of measurements … not at all interested. I listen to the sound and music, not measurements.

Well said.

I really appreciate the hard work that Alpha Audio has been doing. They are conducting the actual research that Amir at ASR only pretends to do. He is certainly not doing science, I am not sure he even knows what a scientist does.

@joshua43214

Agreed. If Amir was in fact a real engineer he sure doesn’t demonstrate any of his scientific education. At this point he has built such a large institution if he was even shown real facts disproving his hypotheses, or rather "beliefs", he would surely deny them to keep his bubble intact.

Sad all his followers cannot get past his useless measurements and false statistics.

@joshua43214 you make a lot of great points.  Also sometimes it’s how the equipment, power cables, interconnects and speaker cables interact with each other. It’s all so an issue with personal preferences. If the cables enhance your listening experience then you like them. There was a guy that was a nasa engineer that made great cables. His cables had a great soundstage but extended the treble and had a bump in the the lower midrange and in some systems it was great. In other systems not so much. But to each his own 

@kennyc love your spending above measurements analogy 

@2psyop you make great points. In terms of measurements and equipment matching. Sensible

@kerrybh i agree you get what you pay for.  I think there is a group of folks that like to show how much smarter they are when they get great sound without spending a lot of money.  Which I think should be encouraged. However, don’t crap on other folks that do spend by challenging their intellectual ability and decision making.  By doing things like saying they have confirmation bias and they are not hearing what they are hearing. That’s the part that’s crazy to me. 

@oddiofyl I definitely understand your points. 

@texbychoice you hit the nail on the head. The snake oil comments are the ones that get me.  They accuse you of promoting snake oil or you are not smart enough to even know snake oil. I have then had it devolve into personal attacks after that. Just nutty! 

No problem with what you are saying. But how do you go about making a buying decision?

@calvinj  

I agree with you. There are some things that I have taken a pass on, like expensive switches, because I tried them in my system and couldn’t hear a difference. But if someone else does hear a difference, it’s not for me to say it’s their imagination. By the same token, if someone chooses to drive their purchasing decisions entirely by measurements, it’s their money and their choice and that’s OK by me. I know there is such a thing as confirmation bias and it’s possible that I have been affected by that when I bought certain cables, etc. I’ll admit that I don’t do state-of-the-art, juried, double blind tests with every purchase I make because this is a hobby, not a colonoscopy. I’m a lawyer too, and know a little bit about arguments. Generally, when it gets to the ad hominem stage, it’s because that person has run out of logic.
 

I do take with a grain of salt those who say price doesn’t matter. There are certainly products that offer high value or poor value for the money. As a general rule, however, it’s very unlikely that a well thought out $10,000 system is going to perform as well as a well thought out $50,000 system, which is not to say that the less expensive system can’t still be highly enjoyable. As I’ve said before, I think the whole deal is to get the system that brings you the most joy for the resources that you are willing and able to devote to that purpose. Any time we find ourselves calling somebody names on a forum like this is probably a time that we should engage in a little self reflection

Physics is physics, and math is math. Those are usually not open to debate. 

Generally, quality goes up in price, generally higher parts are used at higher prices. 

Also there is a law of diminishing returns. Think we all know a $100 cable will sound better over a $5 cable. But how better is a $1000 cable over the $100 cable? 

Music is much more then math and science. There is emotion involved. That is very subjective also hard to quantify. If you remove all the emotion from music it becomes sterile and lifeless. Specs only tell half the story, but at least give you some context. 

Guess my point is, we can all use the scientific method, and measurements to create a "perfect" setup. But that "perfect" setup will most likely be cold and lifeless. No one really wants that, we want the emotion, that cannot be measured. So here we are.

I hear what you’re saying.  I find it depends on the site.  One of the reasons I like this site is people can share their experiences and perspectives without ridicule for the most part.  (I’ve real opened myself up with that comment lol).  I like reviewers that balance personal listening impressions with measurements since I find both helpful.