ACTUAL MUSICAL SOUND VS. MEASUREMENTS

Measurements are critical

How else would I know if it's going to fit in my rack

I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment. While measurements have their place in audio as a tool to guide design and provide some objective insights, they can never fully encapsulate the actual listening experience. The relentless focus on measurements over at places like Audio Science Review completely misses the point for me. Audio gear isn’t just about technical perfection on paper, it’s about how it engages you emotionally and connects you to the music.

I’ve encountered far too many people who dismiss cables, components, or even entire systems based solely on what their meters tell them, without ever giving them a fair listen. To me, that’s not what being an audiophile is about. No measurement can replicate the nuances of live music or the way a particular setup resonates with you personally. Listening is what ultimately matters, and it’s frustrating when people ignore that in favor of a purely numbers-driven approach. Music is an art form, not a science experiment!

It’s a great thread, thank ya’ll!

Sometimes I wonder how the proponents of measurements live their lives. I’d imagine it must be quite dull if everything is reduced to numbers and data, without room for personal experience or enjoyment.

Music would be all out of tune without measurements, eh? 😉

Case closed.

Mapman. Do you mean that humans did not make music before they could measure it? That doesn’t make sense to me. There are some tribal people today (I think) who make music and don’t read or write and have not heard of notes on a page.

Mapman is exactly right..., music would be all out of tune without measurements.

Take a string instrument as an example. On a string instrument, one octave is half the string length, and each subsequent octave is half that length.  Same goes for an organ pipe. 

Every note in the octave has an exacting length to produce that note in tune.

Get the measurements wrong, and everything is out of tune.

Basic engineering. When you are buying a car or a home, do you look for quality construction and actual measured performance. Or do you trust tales of "italian soul"? Same thing.

Poorly designer equipment will still sound great with some music in some room. Say, your room has resonances. Well, speaker that dips at those frequencies will sound great to you. Flat speaker will sound horrible. So there. Equipment that measures oddly is just and equalizer.

Why, cables will greatly affect old type tube equipment where input or output impedance is reactive. Poorly designed power supplies will be sensitive to power cables.

Now, Ethernet cables do not matter. Seriously. :-)

@cdc i research each piece of equipment I buy and each cable I use. I do work with Infigo Audio cables on the side and I actually set up a demo program where people could try before they buy.  All systems and listening environments are different. No one system that most of us have are the same and even if they are they have different cables in them in different listening environments. I like to try before I buy.  I also require black backgrounds, low noise floors and good soundstages in what I use. My preferences is to always have air around instruments and the treble must be airy and extended. My amp has a black background with air and space.  It also uses all Class A power but biased at 35 watts. My Infigo Method 4 dac uses the ess Sabre 9038 dac chipset with multiple dac chips with miniature heat seats around each chip to limit the heat that limits distortion caused by the heat.  It has been tested to make no noise even when turned to 140db. My speakers were designed a former designer for gamut. The German high speaker maker. So my Gato performs extremely well and punches way above the 14k price point.  Like all of us do.  When spending your money. Do your research but try to try all you can when you have the opportunity.  

@mikhailark it depends on your equipment. The combination and the room that you have it in.  But it has to please your ears in your listening environments. Yes there are basic things that it should do but ultimately.  It can measure great and still sound like crap Use your ear in your room with your equipment. 

@2psyop exactly my biggest argument with the measurement group.  Music is meant to be enjoyed not measured. Measurements can help for the environments they are in. But if something’s measures great but sounds like crap,to your ear. You will not be playing it. 

@hasmarto this is the main point I make. I use measurements sparingly at best.  It has to sound good or I don’t give a darn.  I listen for hours when my ears are pleased.  Measurements don’t matter if it’s not pleasing, enjoying or engaging.  

Daniel von Recklinghausen, the renowned audio engineer at EAD and KLH is famous for this old chestnut: “If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing.” Hard to argue with the man's logic.

But who's to say what "sounds good/bad"?

One can always use the argument that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" but we know it goes beyond that and there are standards (e.g., symmetry).

@calvinj - totally. All I am saying, poorly measuring speaker is like EQ and may sound great with some recording and some rooms. Completely flat speaker sounds good in properly treated room. My setup is NOT flat intentionally, it is set up to MY taste. But I did measure it :-)

@mikhailark i have a troubling room but when my system is on in it. It’s amazing. I have taken my system to shows. Still sounds amazing 

Measurements have their place, and I use them to a point. I also use reviews from reviewers I trust, input from a select group of posters here, looks of the speaker, listening at Audio shows (I attend at least 3 a year now), quality of the components used, published specs, listening in friends systems, talking to the manufacturer and/or designer......but in the end, I have to hear the speaker at some point, and that is the final arbiter.

I did buy the Clayton Shaw Caladan speakers sight unseen, when only one review was out, and they were many months away from production. So you can basically say I bought them solely on one review and Clayton's reputation, and the fact that I really liked the speakers he designed at Spatial Audio.

I will look at the impedance curve, on axis response (vertical and horizontal), off axis response (vertical and horizontal), spectral decay, etc. Poor measurements can be an indication of issues that will be present in a listening test.

The funny thing is that most speakers that sound amazing, may not have perfect measurements, but they will not have any major flaws. Some of my favorite speakers of all time (Thiels and vintage Reference Series Infinity) will fall below 2 ohms for short or even longer periods at some frequencies. In that case, I know they will need an amp with high current delivery.

A few years ago I was researching a power conditioner and Google brought me to a detailed online review that was based on all sorts of measurements followed by a detailed explanation of why it could not possibly do what the manufacturer claimed it could do.  I went through the review again because I though I had missed the part of the review that told you what effect it had on the sound of his audio system - but the reviewer skipped that seemingly critical aspect of reviewing that audio component.  I was somewhat perplexed to say the least.  That was my introduction to ASR.

@toronto416 exactly. Some of these reviewers and guys that don’t actually try something in their systems are absolutely nuts to me.  We actually had a power conditioner negatively affect our system but actually help another system in another room.  It just depends. It actually happened at a show and the audiophile junkie did a whole infigo video on it.  

I've been at the hobby for a long time. I am, with a builder, building what we hope will be the finest sounding horn audio system for private listening room pleasure. To me, it's always been a A/Bing of things and yes the measurement world is critical to us. That said, on many occasions the particular part being tested looked great to the computer but a different part which did NOT test as accurately "sounded" to us a lot better. I wouldn't be caught dead without software BUT, we will always trust our ears first; period end stop. Also, I for one, if all I had were my hand held transistor radio from the early sixties, I'd be fine listening to Cousin Brucey and the like as music is the gift and I'd be just fine. How we hear our music should be entirely up to the listener. IMHO

@jettyfat2323 you make a lot of great points. Sometimes the measurements are not ear pleasing.  In a lot of situations. 

@2psyop 

There are some tribal people today (I think) who make music and don’t read or write and have not heard of notes on a page

Paul McCartney for example? He often says he had to write memorable music, not because it had to be memorable, but because he had to remember it (not being able to read or write music himself!)

@toronto416 

+1 Yep. Sound quality of music... dozens of variables on inputs and dozens on outputs. So many that measurement tend to be such gross oversimplifications that they don't conform to the sound you hear a bit. 

There is a reason you get taught how to solve equations in one or two variables in school. Most complex situations are far more complex. 

physics and math might be absolutes, our understanding of the entirety of both ( and much more ) is what is VERY lacking…  i’m deeply involved in the bleeding edge of quantum computing…. oh how easy it…could be… 

This turned out to be quite the thread.

Just out of pure curiosity, I wonder how many people on this thread are members of organizations such as the Audio Engineering Society (A.E.S.), or related groups such as the Acoustical Society of America (A.S.A.) or similar.

I guess the broader question is how many people on Audiogon belong to such societies.

Thanks in advance,

Mark

It's not just you.

Measurements have their place in designing audio gear. But on the music enjoyment front, the only test instruments that matter are ears + brain.

@desktopguy 

+1 As a starting point... then to get right sound the designer swaps subcomponents and  listens to differences. Great designers know "the sound" of different brands of subcomponents (like resistors, capacitors... etc.) and can make choices while designing to craft sound they want. 

@ghdprentice

+1 back at you. Good designers know that measurements, no matter how high tech and well-performed, fall pretty far short of investigating the subjective experience of hear audio as music. The only way they can bridge the gap is with their own ears. And ears can be "trained" with experience, growing more productive as measurement tools over time (something test equipment doesn't do, though AI may change that to a degree).

There are some designers who won't deign to use listening as a design tool, who put all their faith in measurements and technology. If I know that about them, I don't go near whatever pproducts they design. Life is too short.

being few decades experienced analog circuit designer / sound engineer / and audiophile, I can add:

1) no design whatsoever is possible without obeying standards, user expectations, and measurements! most discrepancy btw measurements and advanced user are related to not sufficient measurements coverage, e.g. phase, low power transient response accuracy, dynamics, etc. measurements are needed for volume manufacturing process, which helps to ensure all units meet design target spec, all components vendors meet their spec, readability, etc! manufacturing quality tests (measurements) include accelerated aging test, component selection, stress test, shock and vibe, etc. 

2) listening, by experienced users, is needed to ensure design engineers included in design target spec all what is affecting SQ. unfortunately currently used audio gear specifications are under-specified, which is causing test-actual sound discrepancy., 

I’m not against measurements. It’s just that I’m ears over measurement all day. 

At the risk of sounding sexist, I wonder if one of these measurement guys could pick my wife out of crowd using her vital statistics of 36-27–38* alone.

*Those numbers there are a total guess on my part. I’ve no idea what her actual vital statistics are. They are not what defines her.

I wonder if one of these measurement guys could pick my wife out of crowd using her vital statistics of 36-27–38* alone.

Well now you are in trouble @newton_john , because someone told her about this post and now she is going to post a measurement of you. 

Hey, I don't suppose her name is Olivia? 

I totally  agree that the hobby has no place for obnoxious dogma.  I also agree with someone’s observation that there are anti-measurement obnoxious dogmatics as well.  Me?  I think measurements are really important, and helpful.  They help me be more rigorous in characterizing what I hear.  For example, if I like something that sounds enjoyably “warm” to my ears, I can then look at a frequency response to see if it has a rolled off treble, or a midrange bump, or whatever.  That allows me to better focus on exactly what characteristics I prefer and find equipment I’m likely to like.  This is also why I prefer Stereophile reviews over The Absolute Sound, at the margin.  The reviewers don’t see Atkinson’s measurements until after they submit their reviews.  That enforces a level of discipline that’s missing among most reviewers.  I also believe that the digital side of the hobby benefits even more from measurements than the analog side, for obvious reasons.  

And don’t get me started on streamers, network switches and the like.  If someone says a network switch “lowers the noise floor”, I’d like to see a measurement of that, because it’s easily done.  Ironically, I’m primarily a vinyl and tubes guy, with Audio Note ANEs and restored Altec Santiago’s in my two main systems, so I’m obviously not driven by measurements.  But to me, ignoring measurements unnecessarily limits your knowledge-base.

Am reminded of my journey with single malt scotch.  After my first few years of experience, I had a definite understanding of which scotches were my faves.  But when I spent 10 days in Edinburgh, I found a chart that sorted the major scotches into 4 taste-profile quadrants.  Lo snd behold, all my faves were bunched together in the Northwest quadrant.  This “measurement” provided me with important “data” to supplement my experiential information, and helped me be a better informed scotch drinker.  And yes, scotch drinking definitely enhances my audio experience!

Good question.  I’m like Groucho, I would never want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.   

Mr. John, probably a poor analogy, I could tell if I was interested at all by measurements. Not your wife though.

@mdalton Bravo man….i will have some of what you are drinking and listening to….

Im a Talisker w ice slick listener myself….

@immersifi_recording_services 

Few…very few

my ? about who has and spl meter and level match when evaluating single variable chages… are typically met with -120 db… silence

@tomic601 

Hah!  Take a look at the Scotch map.  I love Talisker and Caol Ila (check out how close they are) for “daily drinkers”.  My go-to special night scotch these days is Lagavulin 16 - way up in the Northeast:

https://www.google.com/search?q=scotch+map&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#vhid=bw8adOJPnEgKfM&vssid=_RNCGZ7z7Ivef5NoPxpeW0Qc_42

And I happened to be at a conference at the Ritz Carlton on Friday where I saw, in a display case in a safe a 72 year old Macallan in a Lalique bottle.  Alas, way too rich for my blood, so I just had a couple of perfect Manhattans.

My room sounds a heck of a lot better than it did when I first completed the build and measured it with the added bass traps and treatments. I wonder if my measurements would show a different result today now that I have tweaked components, cables, and more importantly, the angle of my mid/tweeter module on my Wilson's? Now I have the singer standing up at mic height instead of sitting in a chair. The whole soundstage is much better and more open sounding (violated the manual's set-up recommendations to achieve the standing singer). I should give it a go and see if the charts come out significantly different. hmmmm

It's a PITA to set that up, but might be interesting to see if there are no differences in the graphs, then.......

@mdalton ah…wonderful map..

To paraphrase some wisdom : If you don’t know where your going, any glass ( road ) will get you there…

But with Scotch, all who wander are not lost..

The 75 would also be 2 rich for me. I received a bottle of Mac 25 upon my retirement… that’s likely my one time apogee….

thx for sharing the map. 

@chillydog you have the dest quote on this thread. 

@tomic601 the use of an SPL meter to level match is not the proper way. Matching voltage is.

@invalid sure…try that w speakers…. and a good dmm is more rare here than an SPL meter….

@acman3 I meant identify her by the numbers alone - being interested in that way didn’t come into it. 

@mclinnguy 🤣

To my embarrassment, my wife has never been shy about sharing that statistic.

Sadly, it’s breast cancer she has in common with ONJ not her name. I’m John from Newton.

Sometimes I like to sit in my comfy listening chair and enjoy some measurements...there's no sound of course, but knowing those measurements are there just makes me want to jump up and dance my ass off.

Just out of pure curiosity, I wonder how many people on this thread are members of organizations such as the Audio Engineering Society (A.E.S.), or related groups such as the Acoustical Society of America (A.S.A.) or similar.

What does membership actually mean?  As a member of IEEE for years, never had any impact on ability to design or measure electronic circuits.  

@newton_john sorry to hear. 

Newton_john, also very sorry to hear about your wife's illness. Cancer Sucks

@acman3 @mclinnguy Thank you for your kind comments. Although she was quite ill last year, she’s now relatively well thanks to ongoing targeted therapy. On the bright side, she had 17 years in remission to do amazing things and see her boys grow up. With a bit of luck, she’ll be around for a good while yet.

Sad to see Linda Nolan just passed away with breast cancer.