Value of a preamp?

It can greatly improve the overall performance of a system. 

+1 soix 

+1 @soix  and @jl35 

Fair number of preamp lauding threads on here. A few more people praising their dacs volume control sans external pre. "Richness" was the term used that I thought described it best, in my system anyway.

The one value that rarely gets mentioned is the ability to control the interconnect such that it eliminates any artifacts. However, this will only happen with a pre-amp that supports the balanced line standard (AES-48) and connected to an amplifier that supports the standard as well. It's how I do it in my system.

Vintage Preamps are loaded with Features that Integrated Amps typically omit:

Balance; Two MM Phono Inputs; Tape Loop; Mode Switch; Filters including Fletcher Munson 'Loudness' for Low Volume Listening; Match Gain for 3 inputs (volume stays the same as you change Inputs)

more info here

A good tubed preamp will greatly enhance your sound period.

A good tubed preamp will greatly enhance your sound period.
 

I disagree, as there are satisfying SS preamps also such as Dartzeel, Audionet, Griffon Commander…  it depends on the execution and of course user preference 

Most important component in the chain...

I agree with most above. And yes, there are very good solid state preamps.

A good tubed preamp will greatly enhance your sound period.

There are always lots of a variables, but that was certainly the case when I upgraded. I’m sure technology has progressed since then, but the move from a Hafler DH100 to a Lazarus Cascade Basic tube pre was pretty significant. It brought the system to the next level, and gave me the ability to roll tubes to tweak it. It drives my Dyna/VTA amps extremely well, which is one of the critical parts of that elusive synergy. It became a pretty incredible foundation to build a system around. There is no single right answer, but even a modest tube pre sure worked out well for me.

It can offer so many benefits if you have the right one. Soundstage, clarity, dynamic contrast, slam & dynamics, imaging, details, separation of instruments & vocals, etc. 

Can greatly enhance the overall sonic characteristics of a system. Tonality, dynamics, soundstage, and so much more, when it is the right fit with everything else.

It can't add anything but can color the sound in a manner that some find positive.  

Jerry

It is still a short thread, but I would agree to some degree with the preceding statements. Insightful and helpful. In my case, achieving synergy between the ear, room and gear is with a good preamp/amp combo. No right or wrong. 

@OP - Well, impedance matching and volume control are two fairly critical functions. For the preamp naysayers, the reality is that any source component that can drive a power amp effectively has a preamp in it. So it depends on how good a preamp you want.

It's a specialist.  Volume control and source selection without degrading signal.

I added a preamp to my integrated amp and that opened my eyes to the impact of a preamp.

I'm an audio troglodyte. I like tone controls and most preamps have them, at least the ones I own! 

A good tubed preamp will greatly enhance your sound period.
 

kennyc: I disagree, as there are satisfying SS preamps also such as Dartzeel, Audionet, Griffon Commander…  it depends on the execution and of course user preference.

There is nothing for kennyc to disagree with here. There is no implication that SS preamps cannot also be good. 

Arguable, all preamps "color" the sound.

Instead, I prefer "season" to "color," since that’s all any audio equipment is doing -- presenting artifacts of sound for delectation. Nothing is untouched. It’s all artifactual.

I have tried using my DAC as a preamp. My first realization was that the max volume was much lower. 

Secondly; my preamp "added" something. In my rig's case it added brightness- which I do not prefer in the room I listen in. Perhaps a more absorbent room would change my opinion. 

Phono

To my ears the preamp is the make-or-break component in my system.  A good match expands the soundstage and makes instruments appear more solidly defined in space, with tone colors and timbre faithfully reproduced….a bad one sounds flatter and more grainy. I discovered long ago that the preamp sections of well regarded Japanese brands were the weak link holding back the amp sections of Sansui, Pioneer, and Sony integrateds.  That’s why I’ve never owned one, always preferring separates, even economical ones like Dynaco, Crown, and DB Systems.  Then I discovered Conrad-Johnson.

with exceptions, system sounds better with it than without it. 

I previously felt that the additional circuitry in a preamp could only degrade the integrity of the signal going to the amp, and so for years I used various totally passive preamps, and devices like the Schiit Saga and Freya S that provide passive stages.  Since then I have found that the addition of a preamp can make the sound more dynamic and enjoyable, and I use active preamps now.

+1 @soix also it gives you the ability of various inputs, sound level balance, and control of your system components.  Ideally, it should “get out of the way” in terms of sound and noise but it’s personality can add quite a bit to a system given the right match. A definite must in my opinion, but the minimalists out there would disagree. In the end, it your system and what please your ears that counts. 

@yoyoma26  " the reality is that any source component that can drive a power amp effectively has a preamp in it. So it depends on how good a preamp you want."

Excellent point.  If your source already has an excellent internal preamp, you might or might not benefit from a separate preamp.   When people say that they do or don't get benefits from a preamp, it would be really helpful to specify what source, amp and speakers they are using.

I'm currently using a PBD MPS-8 without a preamp, using the variable volume control and XLR cables direct to AGD Duet amps, and YG Hailey 2.2 speakers.   Sound quality is excellent, but I'm curious what effect a preamp might have.   

Paul McGowan of PS Audio has posted several YouTube videos on this subject.  You can Google those.  I was going directly from my PS Audio Directstream DAC Mk1 into my M700 monoblocks,  and thought it sounded great.  After watching his videos,  and reading various other discussions,  I  decided to try putting a preamp into the chain.  About that time,  PS Audio was coming out with their new Stellar Gold Preamp,  and I was given the opportunity to beta test one.  The improvement was remarkable! Soundstage was wider and deeper,  greater detail,  just more musical in every way!! And it's a ss preamp.  Your results may differ,  but it sure improved my system.  And BTW,  many who have tried the new Stellar Gold Preamp and compared it to the BHK Preamp (which has a tube input stage) preferred the ss Gold Preamp. 

When I added my external DAC (Gustard X26 Pro) to my Parasound P6 pre A23+ amp based system I stopped using the pre remote to control the volume as I was intrigued with checking out all of the different settings on the DAC. Based on another discussion here I set the DAC volume at 100% (so that the DAC digital volume circuit isn’t involved) and went back to just using the preamp to adjust volume and SQ improved.

I don’t mean to suggest that the Parasound pre is exceptional (I am in the process of deciding on a tube pre to audition once I replace my amp (probably with a Bryson 4b3), but offer this anecdote as to one benefit of a preamp Inhave recently observed)

@kmcong ...PS Audio was coming out with their new Stellar Gold Preamp, and I was given the opportunity to beta test one. The improvement was remarkable! Soundstage was wider and deeper, greater detail, just more musical in every way!! And it’s a ss preamp. Your results may differ, but it sure improved my system. And BTW, many who have tried the new Stellar Gold Preamp and compared it to the BHK Preamp (which has a tube input stage) preferred the ss Gold Preamp.

Did you get a look inside the Stellar Gold Preamp by chance? I followed along with the design and designer a bit on this one, and keeping an eye on it into production. There are several stages and various components going on in there, looking inside.

For those who don’t believe a good preamp (adds or removes) anything, take a look inside this one. What I first thought might be a simple preamplifier design, was a very incorrect assumption. Imo, using a DAC with a decent volume control won’t usually hang in the sound department, compared to a system with a really good active preamplifier in the mix. It seems good preamps aren’t totally dead yet.

@carlsbad2 . I concur. It shouldn't change the sound.

@dynalead. Yes. Where would phono be w/o preamplifier.

@cey. I agree systems sound better. I understand designers aim for the elusive straight wire w gain; however, exciting colorations must account for many findings :)

I particularly enjoy the dealer (salespersons) comments; kind of like the old Absolute Sound to which I subscribed and enjoyed :) . Now I prefer amirm - just the facts - as best that human can avoid personal bias - which I think "they" do a pretty good job of. ( I'm thinking a language professor might cringe at my grammar :)  I'm reminded now of the Beach Boys hit, Fun,Fun,Fun  :)

My experience over many years of making component comparisons (for a living) is that you can live with more amplifiers than preamps.  That's how important the preamp is.  It's the brain and intelligence of the system.  A preamp can make or break an audio system.  And, having said that, using a great preamp as opposed to bypassing a preamp (with passive volume controls or DAC based volume controls) simply gives better performance. Perhaps it's due to impedance matching or other such electrical conditions, but the preamp is vitally important.  The sound is more liquid and has more vitality with a great preamp.  This reality has born itself out time and time again over the years.  Don't shortchange your system with a poorly performing preamp (or lack of preamp).  I have discovered some great preamps out there and I'm happy to recommend them should anyone be interested.

@hilde45 . Love your description- it's all "artifactual".  :)

The ’preamp’ is essentially a cash grabbing strategy by certain manufacturers who went to the umpteenth level to do a ground-up design/fine tune a preamp to a specific power amp. For example, Luxman... they designed a wallet abusing preamp (c900u) for their m900u power amp and the latter sounds the best only with that specific preamp (A few other manufacturers fall in that same category locking you into a stack).

If you didn’t get stuck with such a cash grab manufacturer strategy, feel free to mix/match whatever, find a integrated amp or a dac with a decent sounding preamp mode, i.e., don’t overthink the preamp. It isn’t the greatest thing that happened to hifi since sliced bread.

@deep_333 "It isn’t the greatest thing that happened to hifi since sliced bread.".

Agree while it’s not the only option, many of us own both options, and simply insert and remove a good preamp in the system, and hear the engaging difference, likely more so [in a purpose-built "separates" designed system].

Then, insert a good streamer or combined DAC-preamp with a well designed volume control, and one can usually hear the difference yet again.

There are manufactures with good integrated amps, built in preamps and DACs, that sound really nice [with no separates], and usually comes at a hefty price.

Seems like some of the all-in-one integrated units are starting to take over more, and sorta looks to the new future path as old receivers were in the day. The more that show up, creates compensation, and price wars with competition is good to have. I’ll be on the lookout myself for the best sounding value all-in-one integrated when it gets here! Not too far off one can suspect :)

it can add gain and thrilling dynamics

The ’preamp’ is essentially a cash grabbing strategy 

Yeah, no.  That’s just ridiculous.

Do it. Get the preamp. Just make sure it’s not a crappy one as those will make things sound worse instead of improving the situation- like a good preamp should.

I've also tried direct from DAC/Streamer using LUMIN's LEEDh volume control. It was ok, but the preamp with some good NOS tubes made a big improvement over direct connection from DAC to amps. 

 So then, an active preamp is actually 'adding something'  to the signal, (whatever that something is) but a passive attenuator is not.

So when all the impedance values are matched up correctly with a passive attenuator, then a more true to the source sound is being heard.

Really then, active preamps can be like tube rolling when you actually think about it !

So when all the impedance values are matched up correctly with a passive attenuator, then a more true to the source sound is being heard.

@scm So then it becomes, when are all those pesky impedance values matched up correctly?  Impossible to know, so just use your ears.

I just knew Deep Audio was behind preamps.

@ddgtt

"I have discovered some great preamps out there and I’m happy to recommend them should anyone be interested."

I’m interested in hearing what you recommend. Are there preamps that you think will work with a variety of amps, or do specific preamps need to be matched to certain amps?

I have also experienced the beauty of synergy between a preamp and amp. More often than not, the same brand of preamp and amp gives the best performance. But there can be exceptions.

My favorite preamps as of late are as follows:

Mola Mola Makua - $12,200 as a line stage. Phono card adds $3,000 and DAC card adds $8,500. Transparent, neutral, and dynamic!

Audionet Pre G2 - $23,350. Great body, transparency, dynamics, and 3-D.

Audionet Stern - $48,950.  The most transparent preamp I've ever heard. But it also has the most accurate tonality, best bass and bring things to life dynamically in stunning fashion. 

@ddgtt 

Would that mere mortals could afford them...

@ddgtt 

I agree.  A good preamp is the conductor of the symphony.

Depends on your DAC! If you get the new Lampizator Poseidon, it does not need a preamp, because the impedance level matches any amp. 
same with playback designs.

fwiw, i just did a listening session with a naim power amp and a ps audio 5.0 preamp, which has both an active and passive (straightwire) mode. at the same volume, the active mode had significantly deeper (but less sculpted) bass and more dynamic slam, while the passive had less overall oomph but a lot more high-end detail and, predictably, a lot less coloration. we all preferred the passive, except for vinyl, which sounded a little flat. of course, i'd expect impressions with different gear.