Value of a preamp?

Appreciate the input. Would love to know of someone who is exceptional at upgrading preamps as well as repairs.

I have my phono stage plugged into my Tortuga Audio LDR attenuator then out from there to my amp.

Very clean and transparent and it`s pretty easy to hear changes made to the system, like swapping cables/interconnects or rolling tubes.

Plays as loud as I would ever want too....Pure as Light 👍

Other than impedance matching and volume control?

Preamps also provide any gain needed to drive the power amp. This is handy if you have a tape machine, tuner or phono section.

In addition a good preamp will minimize or eliminate colorations caused by interconnect cables. If you've auditioned interconnect cables and heard a difference (for example, one does the highs better) then you know what I'm talking about.

If you get the right preamp, it can have less coloration than any passive system available on this account.

The VALUE is in the features a preamp provides. There are MANY different types and features. To me, the 2 main features are Input Switching and Gain Control.

Now of course if you have only 1 source and it has volume control, then by all means try it without a preamp. It may sound perfect. But it also might sound even better with a good preamp, or maybe not. It depends.

But most people need features. Like me, they need input switching, balance control, tone controls, headphone output, etc. It’s not a conspiracy. A preamp is a tool that does a job, and in some cases, you don’t need one.

Invaluable?

I’ve gone back-and-forth with this since moving to high-sensitivity speakers. I've determined that an active preamp is essential.  Current gain is key even if you don't need extra voltage gain.

Besides the items you mentioned--impedance matching and volume control--receiving multiple inputs and switching among the inputs is another important function of preamps. 

But, I would consider the other side of the coin. If you're not using analog volume control, you'd be using a digital volume control. And, digital volume control is anything but simple. Here are some of my takeaways from this forum post with the Roon programers on digital volume control:

1. changing the volume digitally requires the hardware to re-load the song on the fly
2. Roon leverages the streaming transport or DAC to handle digital volume control, even though Roon's upsampling happens at the server level [the Roon Core]
   1. As a result, the quality of the digital volume control you experience will vary by the quality of your downstream devices
3. changing the volume of a DSD track, digitally, forces the DSD file to be resampled to PCM 
   1. So, unless your streamer or DAC upsamples to DSD, your DAC will now receive a PCM file

You may find other takeaways from that thread. Also, that thread is a few years back, so some of the info may not be current.

I tried upsampling with Roon, and didn't experience a difference at the time. I then tried upsampling with HQPlayer's dozens of dithers and filters. That was interesting, but I never felt I like got a result better than casting a normal signal to the streamer. 

Currently, I just allow my pre-amp to handle volume control. But I may have a change of mind with different gear. (I currently use a Peachtree Nova 300 for DAC and preamp duties.)

Just from what I've observed, the guys who have good results with digital volume control use a streamer or DAC that upsamples (and often to DSD) and also seem to use an FPGA DAC. In broad strokes, here are the major DAC camps as I see them. (1) Those guys with FPGA DACs seems to prefer upsampling everything to DSD. (2) Those guys with R2R DACs seem to prefer bit-perfect signals, especially 16-bit PCM files. (3) Those guys with chip DACs can be a mixed bag. My Peachtree Nova 300 definitely prefers to see 24-bit streams. Also, DSD doesn't sound as good as PCM with my unit and to my ears, for what that's worth. 

So, if your goal is to cut out an analog preamp, or to have the convenience of adjusting volume digitally, you might consider a streamer that upsamples well, like a Lumin, and/or some kind of FPGA DAC, like from PS Audio or Chord. I have some KEF LS50 Wireless speakers. They sound good, and I believe their DSP engine handles volume control. 

I've only heard the Aries Cerat in passing in an unfamiliar system (which didn't impress), but not in a comparative sense.  Every system I've heard with an Audionet preamp (and amps) is always great. And admittedly they were carefully curated systems.

@Tonnesen - good article which correlates well with my own listening. In my own case, running analogue and digital sources necessitates a preamp anyway.

@yoyoyaya 

Christiaan Punter has a nice piece on the value of preamps, even in a purely digital system, and a comparison of several preamps.  

@ddgtt Have you heard any of the Aries Cerat preamps, and any thoughts on how they compare to the Stern and the others you listed?

@tonnesen - I only saw your comment now. Very nice system BTW. The Playback Designs player is unusual in using an analogue volume control, thus achieving volume reduction without throwing bits away. How it compares to a preamp of commensurate quality for your system could only be judged by listening - of course:))

For people going straight from their DAC to amplifier, you don't know what you're missing. It's been a huge difference for me in several iterations of my systems through the years.

I don't understand the question.

Would not touch any Limpazator products with a 10 foot pole. Nothing but problems. I am normally very impressed with EU gear. 
 

Depends on your DAC! If you get the new Lampizator Poseidon, it does not need a preamp, because the impedance level matches any amp. 
same with playback designs.

fwiw, i just did a listening session with a naim power amp and a ps audio 5.0 preamp, which has both an active and passive (straightwire) mode. at the same volume, the active mode had significantly deeper (but less sculpted) bass and more dynamic slam, while the passive had less overall oomph but a lot more high-end detail and, predictably, a lot less coloration. we all preferred the passive, except for vinyl, which sounded a little flat. of course, i'd expect impressions with different gear.

Depends on your DAC! If you get the new Lampizator Poseidon, it does not need a preamp, because the impedance level matches any amp. 
same with playback designs.

@ddgtt 

I agree.  A good preamp is the conductor of the symphony.

@ddgtt 

Would that mere mortals could afford them...

I have also experienced the beauty of synergy between a preamp and amp. More often than not, the same brand of preamp and amp gives the best performance. But there can be exceptions.

My favorite preamps as of late are as follows:

Mola Mola Makua - $12,200 as a line stage. Phono card adds $3,000 and DAC card adds $8,500. Transparent, neutral, and dynamic!

Audionet Pre G2 - $23,350. Great body, transparency, dynamics, and 3-D.

Audionet Stern - $48,950.  The most transparent preamp I've ever heard. But it also has the most accurate tonality, best bass and bring things to life dynamically in stunning fashion. 

@ddgtt

"I have discovered some great preamps out there and I’m happy to recommend them should anyone be interested."

I’m interested in hearing what you recommend. Are there preamps that you think will work with a variety of amps, or do specific preamps need to be matched to certain amps?

I just knew Deep Audio was behind preamps.

So when all the impedance values are matched up correctly with a passive attenuator, then a more true to the source sound is being heard.

@scm So then it becomes, when are all those pesky impedance values matched up correctly?  Impossible to know, so just use your ears.

 So then, an active preamp is actually 'adding something'  to the signal, (whatever that something is) but a passive attenuator is not.

So when all the impedance values are matched up correctly with a passive attenuator, then a more true to the source sound is being heard.

Really then, active preamps can be like tube rolling when you actually think about it !

Do it. Get the preamp. Just make sure it’s not a crappy one as those will make things sound worse instead of improving the situation- like a good preamp should.

I've also tried direct from DAC/Streamer using LUMIN's LEEDh volume control. It was ok, but the preamp with some good NOS tubes made a big improvement over direct connection from DAC to amps. 

The ’preamp’ is essentially a cash grabbing strategy 

Yeah, no.  That’s just ridiculous.

it can add gain and thrilling dynamics

@deep_333 "It isn’t the greatest thing that happened to hifi since sliced bread.".

Agree while it’s not the only option, many of us own both options, and simply insert and remove a good preamp in the system, and hear the engaging difference, likely more so [in a purpose-built "separates" designed system].

Then, insert a good streamer or combined DAC-preamp with a well designed volume control, and one can usually hear the difference yet again.

There are manufactures with good integrated amps, built in preamps and DACs, that sound really nice [with no separates], and usually comes at a hefty price.

Seems like some of the all-in-one integrated units are starting to take over more, and sorta looks to the new future path as old receivers were in the day. The more that show up, creates compensation, and price wars with competition is good to have. I’ll be on the lookout myself for the best sounding value all-in-one integrated when it gets here! Not too far off one can suspect :)

The ’preamp’ is essentially a cash grabbing strategy by certain manufacturers who went to the umpteenth level to do a ground-up design/fine tune a preamp to a specific power amp. For example, Luxman... they designed a wallet abusing preamp (c900u) for their m900u power amp and the latter sounds the best only with that specific preamp (A few other manufacturers fall in that same category locking you into a stack).

If you didn’t get stuck with such a cash grab manufacturer strategy, feel free to mix/match whatever, find a integrated amp or a dac with a decent sounding preamp mode, i.e., don’t overthink the preamp. It isn’t the greatest thing that happened to hifi since sliced bread.

@hilde45 . Love your description- it's all "artifactual".  :)

My experience over many years of making component comparisons (for a living) is that you can live with more amplifiers than preamps.  That's how important the preamp is.  It's the brain and intelligence of the system.  A preamp can make or break an audio system.  And, having said that, using a great preamp as opposed to bypassing a preamp (with passive volume controls or DAC based volume controls) simply gives better performance. Perhaps it's due to impedance matching or other such electrical conditions, but the preamp is vitally important.  The sound is more liquid and has more vitality with a great preamp.  This reality has born itself out time and time again over the years.  Don't shortchange your system with a poorly performing preamp (or lack of preamp).  I have discovered some great preamps out there and I'm happy to recommend them should anyone be interested.

I particularly enjoy the dealer (salespersons) comments; kind of like the old Absolute Sound to which I subscribed and enjoyed :) . Now I prefer amirm - just the facts - as best that human can avoid personal bias - which I think "they" do a pretty good job of. ( I'm thinking a language professor might cringe at my grammar :)  I'm reminded now of the Beach Boys hit, Fun,Fun,Fun  :)

@cey. I agree systems sound better. I understand designers aim for the elusive straight wire w gain; however, exciting colorations must account for many findings :)

@dynalead. Yes. Where would phono be w/o preamplifier.

@carlsbad2 . I concur. It shouldn't change the sound.

@kmcong ...PS Audio was coming out with their new Stellar Gold Preamp, and I was given the opportunity to beta test one. The improvement was remarkable! Soundstage was wider and deeper, greater detail, just more musical in every way!! And it’s a ss preamp. Your results may differ, but it sure improved my system. And BTW, many who have tried the new Stellar Gold Preamp and compared it to the BHK Preamp (which has a tube input stage) preferred the ss Gold Preamp.

Did you get a look inside the Stellar Gold Preamp by chance? I followed along with the design and designer a bit on this one, and keeping an eye on it into production. There are several stages and various components going on in there, looking inside.

For those who don’t believe a good preamp (adds or removes) anything, take a look inside this one. What I first thought might be a simple preamplifier design, was a very incorrect assumption. Imo, using a DAC with a decent volume control won’t usually hang in the sound department, compared to a system with a really good active preamplifier in the mix. It seems good preamps aren’t totally dead yet.

When I added my external DAC (Gustard X26 Pro) to my Parasound P6 pre A23+ amp based system I stopped using the pre remote to control the volume as I was intrigued with checking out all of the different settings on the DAC. Based on another discussion here I set the DAC volume at 100% (so that the DAC digital volume circuit isn’t involved) and went back to just using the preamp to adjust volume and SQ improved.

I don’t mean to suggest that the Parasound pre is exceptional (I am in the process of deciding on a tube pre to audition once I replace my amp (probably with a Bryson 4b3), but offer this anecdote as to one benefit of a preamp Inhave recently observed)

Paul McGowan of PS Audio has posted several YouTube videos on this subject.  You can Google those.  I was going directly from my PS Audio Directstream DAC Mk1 into my M700 monoblocks,  and thought it sounded great.  After watching his videos,  and reading various other discussions,  I  decided to try putting a preamp into the chain.  About that time,  PS Audio was coming out with their new Stellar Gold Preamp,  and I was given the opportunity to beta test one.  The improvement was remarkable! Soundstage was wider and deeper,  greater detail,  just more musical in every way!! And it's a ss preamp.  Your results may differ,  but it sure improved my system.  And BTW,  many who have tried the new Stellar Gold Preamp and compared it to the BHK Preamp (which has a tube input stage) preferred the ss Gold Preamp. 

@yoyoma26  " the reality is that any source component that can drive a power amp effectively has a preamp in it. So it depends on how good a preamp you want."

Excellent point.  If your source already has an excellent internal preamp, you might or might not benefit from a separate preamp.   When people say that they do or don't get benefits from a preamp, it would be really helpful to specify what source, amp and speakers they are using.

I'm currently using a PBD MPS-8 without a preamp, using the variable volume control and XLR cables direct to AGD Duet amps, and YG Hailey 2.2 speakers.   Sound quality is excellent, but I'm curious what effect a preamp might have.   

+1 @soix also it gives you the ability of various inputs, sound level balance, and control of your system components.  Ideally, it should “get out of the way” in terms of sound and noise but it’s personality can add quite a bit to a system given the right match. A definite must in my opinion, but the minimalists out there would disagree. In the end, it your system and what please your ears that counts. 

I previously felt that the additional circuitry in a preamp could only degrade the integrity of the signal going to the amp, and so for years I used various totally passive preamps, and devices like the Schiit Saga and Freya S that provide passive stages.  Since then I have found that the addition of a preamp can make the sound more dynamic and enjoyable, and I use active preamps now.

with exceptions, system sounds better with it than without it. 

To my ears the preamp is the make-or-break component in my system.  A good match expands the soundstage and makes instruments appear more solidly defined in space, with tone colors and timbre faithfully reproduced….a bad one sounds flatter and more grainy. I discovered long ago that the preamp sections of well regarded Japanese brands were the weak link holding back the amp sections of Sansui, Pioneer, and Sony integrateds.  That’s why I’ve never owned one, always preferring separates, even economical ones like Dynaco, Crown, and DB Systems.  Then I discovered Conrad-Johnson.

Phono

I have tried using my DAC as a preamp. My first realization was that the max volume was much lower. 

Secondly; my preamp "added" something. In my rig's case it added brightness- which I do not prefer in the room I listen in. Perhaps a more absorbent room would change my opinion. 

Arguable, all preamps "color" the sound.

Instead, I prefer "season" to "color," since that’s all any audio equipment is doing -- presenting artifacts of sound for delectation. Nothing is untouched. It’s all artifactual.

A good tubed preamp will greatly enhance your sound period.
 

kennyc: I disagree, as there are satisfying SS preamps also such as Dartzeel, Audionet, Griffon Commander…  it depends on the execution and of course user preference.

There is nothing for kennyc to disagree with here. There is no implication that SS preamps cannot also be good. 

I'm an audio troglodyte. I like tone controls and most preamps have them, at least the ones I own! 

It's a specialist.  Volume control and source selection without degrading signal.

I added a preamp to my integrated amp and that opened my eyes to the impact of a preamp.

@OP - Well, impedance matching and volume control are two fairly critical functions. For the preamp naysayers, the reality is that any source component that can drive a power amp effectively has a preamp in it. So it depends on how good a preamp you want.

It is still a short thread, but I would agree to some degree with the preceding statements. Insightful and helpful. In my case, achieving synergy between the ear, room and gear is with a good preamp/amp combo. No right or wrong.