I’m considering upgrading my speakers internal wiring

@bobbyloans "I have a beautiful pair for PBN M1!5 in a Black finish which I love and sound incredible"

- .. what is the actual problem statement? 

@Sqared80

You honestly do not believe that speaker cables and inter-connects are nonsense snake oil do you?

I have personally been doing incremental upgrades over the past 3 years and have to say ; it all matters. Some things more than others and, some things more pronounced!

You’re clearly not serious

@bobbyloans 

If you want to go full OCD, don't assume anything about the speakers.  Trust, but verify.  

Push on connectors are bad.  Soldered connections better.

Anything magnetic at the binding post, replace.

Picture of the crossover indicates both good and questionable. Several good quality components, but far from better that could have been included for the price of the speaker.  Impossible to tell for sure, but possibly a couple small electrolytic caps near the large inductor. Bad. Sand cast resistors.  Bad.

Mention of 5th and 6 order filters begs the question - Why?  That level of complexity indicates significant compensation required for correction of a problem. Driver response, phase, breakup, resonance, cabinet?

If there is in your opinion an issue is sound quality, proceed at your own risk.  

Artificial intelligence nails it. How about that?

@devinplombier thx for responding. 

dear ChatBox: 

If expensive cable interconnects are needed to maximize performance of high end audio systems, why aren’t the components themselves wired with expensive wiring?

ChatBox:

The discussion around expensive cable interconnects in high-end audio systems often revolves around the belief that better cables can improve sound quality. However, the wiring inside audio components is typically designed with a focus on cost-effectiveness, manufacturing practicality, and performance requirements. Here are a few reasons why the internal wiring of audio components may not be as costly as high-end interconnect cables:

1. Cost and Economics: High-end audio manufacturers balance performance with cost. Internal wiring is often selected to meet specific performance criteria while keeping manufacturing costs manageable. Using expensive materials for all internal wiring would significantly increase production costs and retail prices.

2. Design Considerations: The internal wiring of audio components is designed to work within a specific environment and set of constraints. Manufacturers optimize the design for the electrical requirements of the circuit, which might not necessitate high-end materials or techniques.

3. Signal Path Length: The internal wiring is typically much shorter than interconnects, meaning that the potential degradation of signal quality over short distances is less significant. As a result, the benefits of using high-end wiring may diminish when the wire runs are extremely short.

4. Application of Cables: Cables that connect components (interconnects) are subjected to different conditions than internal wiring. They often face higher levels of electromagnetic interference (EMI) and radio frequency interference (RFI) because they are external and connect various components. High-end cables are designed to minimize these effects.

5. Marketing and Perception: The high-end audio market often places a significant emphasis on cables and interconnects as a means to differentiate products. Marketing can create a perception that these cables are essential for achieving optimal performance, even if the actual differences may be subtle or subjective.

6. Component Isolation: High-end audio components are often designed with isolation techniques that minimize the impact of internal wiring on sound quality. For example, careful layout, shielding, and grounding can mitigate many issues that might otherwise necessitate the use of expensive wiring.

While some audiophiles believe that high-end interconnects can make a noticeable difference in sound quality, opinions vary widely on the actual impact of cables versus the components themselves. Ultimately, the choice of wiring in audio components is a balance of performance, cost, and practicality.

That wasn't so hard now, was it? 

@dhite71 

I saw that Eggleston ad you're talking about in usam.

The crossover build looks legit. The seller used some massively expensive components rarely if ever seen in $2500 speakers, and the workmanship looks fine.

If I were interested, I would want to review old vs new schematics, inspect the crossover work in person, learn everything I can from the seller, and of course carefully audition the modded speakers. If they sound great, that's really all anyone should care about. 

@bobbyloans 

This may have already been said so apologies if redundant....I didn't have the patience to read through the thread but if you do this, you should also accept that these are now your speakers as their resale value will be lowered.  Regardless if it is an improvement and if you did a perfect job, I cannot imagine being a person interested in a speaker and buying one that the previous owner rewired their crossovers.  There are some Egglestonworks speakers on USAM that I saw today where someone did this and replaced caps in the crossovers...it appears he is having a tough time finding a buyer.  If you can afford it where selling them will never matter and are proficient at this type of work then go for it!

You're playing a fool's game. Put the snake oil down and start working with science and objective facts. Your expensive cables have not improved your sound at all. At. All. Changing out internal wires will also do nothing. 

Shame on people here who claim otherwise. Those people will never be true audiophiles. Frauds.

I’d ask Peter if he were making this speaker for a higher price point what caps & wires would he use?  Hats a nice Jon confrontational way of getting the builders opinion. 
Consider Master Built cables for your rebuild. My Von Schweikert’s use them internally. For sure will take away a potential weak link.Though at their price point you’ll for sure want to upgrade Caps too. 

if interconnect cable is so important, why aren’t the amps, preamps, and especially speakers similarly wired point to point? It’s meant not as a snark, but a straightforward question. I have never gotten not only a good answer, I have never gotten any answer. At all.

@unreceivedogma

Maybe that’s because the typical "you need to invest (sic) at least $1,000 in your USB and Ethernet cables" folks don’t know how their gear is built or what’s in it, and have zero interest in finding out, just like a person who believes the earth is flat has no interest in travelling to the edge of it: If, heaven forbid, there were no edge there, they’d have to renounce their belief; and if there was in fact an edge, they might fall off, and that’s dangerous. So, all in all, disincentives all around to go find out.

At a minimum, if applicable, I would do away with any crimp connections that could instead be soldered and replace the binding posts with low-mass pure copper. There is no way those mods could have negative consequences.

If you change the wiring using UPOCC with Teflon, or cotton, dielectric and stick with the same gauge as OEM, how could anything negative come of that?

I think where people may have had negative results would be by changing the wire gauge in the high frequency paths. 
 

I’ve always questioned the validity of spending tens of thousands on cable interconnects for components, and I have asked this forum more or less the question you pose: if interconnect cable is so important, why aren’t the amps, preamps, and especially speakers similarly wired point to point? It’s meant not as a snark, but a straightforward question. I have never gotten not only a good answer, I have never gotten any answer. At all.

For my Altec 604Cs, I ditched the crossover that they came with, bought a pair of Mastering Lab crossovers that were designed for the 604Cs, and had someone replace all the capacitors with audio grade Jensen foil capacitors.

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

I replaced the original wire with 18 ga Neotech teflon wire. 

Hello, I upgraded the internal wiring on my Rogers LS3/5a speakers only because they were very thin small gauge wire. I think it’s only worth changing the wiring if you see it’s not good quality wiring installed.  

@bobbyloans i’ve gone down the rabbit hole of upgrades from every direction and if you are inspired to do any particular thing, I would certainly not stop you… However

A big upgrade that many people miss out on is simply addressing the AC power in your system. This avoids alteration of the equipment which you might sell someday anyway, and gives you some forever new equipment that will be much bigger than the wire in your speakers

In my opinion, and from thousands of hours experimenting ... the place to begin and best value in audio upgrades is a Shunyata Theta 2.25 m AC cable

Even one of these will change your system for the better

If you’d like to voice the system, a little brighter go 2,0 or 1.75m

if you’d like a little bit more on the low end, go with 3 m

if you have more than $1000 to spend, Shunyata research has many power distribution products which are all very effective and have no artifacts on the downside, which can't be said of the offerings from other companies in the power business.  Also, comparatively to the field, the Shunyata stuff is not only better. It's very reasonably priced.

---

and definitely ignore anyone who says that speaker wire or AC cable wire doesn’t matter, these well meaning people either haven’t done the work or they don’t have a system sufficiently resolving to hear what’s going on…

Every single thing matters it’s just a question of degree.

OP - Much good advice here.

Quick suggestion:

If you decide to proceed, do one speaker at a time. 

Listen to the differences (if any) while playing a variety of HQ mono recordings. 

Try a few setup locations: 

1) Next to each other if you can switch L/R channels on & off remotely. Reverse the locations in case of room interactions. 

2) Pull one speaker out to the sweet spot & listen for a while. Then switch them. 

You won't get the stereo image / soundstage in this format, but it could allow you to assess other virtues and vices. 

Try not to ruin them both at the same time ;-) 

Just thinking... 

Ken 

@bobbyloans The final two feet?  How about the final two inches?  Consider, no matter how thick a gauge wire you install inside the enclosure, any crossover components still have tiny leads, which if you're lucky are tinned copper, but could be copper-clad steel or worse.

Well this has been a fun ride my friends!

who knew a some

little topic would generate so much activity.  I guess it’s really important to see everyone who loves this “hobby”; which is much more than just that would bring so much enjoyment and happiness to us all. 
Thamknyou all again and I’ll report back once I’ve made a decision and my results 

Bobby 

@bobbyloans 

Quality of internal and external wiring is meaningful in all of the components in our system.  I would say the odds are very good that you would find internal wiring for your speakers that would make a noticeable improvement,  

However your system is likely already tuned to your liking and introducing another variable in hopes of improved sound is not a sure thing.  

Since bulk cabling is relatively inexpensive I would suggest you buy at least (3) different brand specs of wiring and give each one a trial.  

Once you find the one you prefer, I would even solder the wire directly to all terminals.  

Lots of work but how would you feel if the first set didn't work out? 

I replaced the internal wiring first before I upgraded the crossovers , this allowed me to experience the change only of the wires .  I used Cardas chassis wire , first I used 15.5awg from speaker posts to crossovers and then to the speakers , I then changed to 17.5awg from the mid and tweeter crossover to the speakers . The origianl wiring was 18awg solid wire .  I like the sound improvement alot but working with cardas wires means using a solder hot pot which is a little more work . 

If your crossovers have Clarity capacitors that's great , I used the newest Purity series on the mid and tweeter and CMR , MR on the woofer ( I upgraded the woofer first before the Purity caps were available ) .  You should also consider replacing the resistors with Mills , I had done this after the wiring and before the capacitors ( I tried to listen to each form of improvement independently rather than doing the upgrades all at once ) . I used the original inductors  do to size .  I also installed Cardas speaker binding posts although if you have the funds WBT posts might be better .

Good Luck

@wolf_garcia I have ( somewhere ) 50’ of brown lamp cord circa 1965… copper was great again back then… Mac and Bozak endorsed..

Greek is all Greek to me, i specialize in Latin, in particular the prayers for cooperative electrons… likely a Greek thing.. after all

When Peter lived / worked here in Alpine, he was a guy you could have a beer ( the last time i recall w him… he had a hard Cider… )… i would just call him… Unconstrained by $ his answers will likely change..

Also, the last pair of PbN speakers i heard did have a plexiglass back exposed filter network with absolutely nothing to be ashamed of… just my opinion…

My speakers sound so good I get stuck in front of them for hours, cutting into my time translating Greek philosophy back into Greek, and working to help the extremely wealthy with their personal issues. I'm going to replace their (the speakers, not the extremely wealthy) classy internal wire with rusty old lamp cord to dial them back a little.

If one has direct experience using all manner of crossover part brands and quality tiers as well as hook up wire, then they will know what each change will bring sonically.

OP feel free to reach out to me regarding bulk hook up wire and your options. I have used many options over the years and carefully listened through the break in process. Internal wire choice will change the sound and you just need to know the result you’re looking for. Please first know what is in there now. I suspect Mil Spec silver over copper in Teflon. You must know this first.

I think he is only changing internal wiring? Just replace wire one at a time . And be patience. Take picture . Just be careful.

i spend a lot of weekends at a local shop that makes its own high end speakers.  After the basic speaker is made, there is a lot of time spent tweaking the speaker, including making adjustments based on the specific wants of a prospective buyer.  There have been many times i heard quite dramatic changes made to the sound based on the prospective buyer's preference, and not all such changes are to my liking.  But, the point is that such small changes DO change the sound.  Such changes include changes in internal wiring, as well as crossover parts and even binding posts.  This builder often puts truly crappy looking binding posts on his amps and speakers because they sound good to him.  Some customers insist on something fancy, like WBT silver binding posts, and he will do it, but then have to compensate elsewhere as best he can to get back to the sound he wants.

Any such tweak, to the extent that it actually changes the sound, has the capability to improve or hurt the sound.  It comes down to a trial, and one should be willing to accept that the trial may not work out well and one has to reverse the operation to get back to the starting point.  One would then have to decide if another experiment is in order.  

Go for it! They'll be your "forever" speakers; especially since nobody will want to risk buying them with your mod, if they like speaker's OEM voicing.

Years ago, I replaced all the wires in a Dahlquist DQ-10’s, a 5 way speaker system. When all was said and done, I removed most of it because it didn’t sound as good.  However, I did leave the 12 gauge wires to the woofers, because they made a very big improvement in the sound. For what it’s worth, the wire I used was silver coated copper.

What carlsbad2 said.  Even expensive brands can have surprisingly mediocre wire and caps in the crossover.  I’ve seen the insides of dozens of speakers.  Have fun.

The best speaker designers on earth themselves are quite humble, constantly learning and revising things. So, Peter and his speaker are not set in stone. Peter himself may have a lot more to learn like other designers. So, you can go to town with the tinkering and not worry about "upsetting" Peter (good grief, facepalm). He got paid and they are your speakers now, i.e., you can do whatever you want with it.

A simple upgrade for many speakers could be to try slapping some no-rez sheets inside the cabinet, see what it does.

https://gr-research.com/product/norez-two/

Consider joining groups like the ’high end loudspeaker crossover upgrading’ facebook group. You’ll find more detailed posts, schematics, pictures, etc and those nerds could help sort you out, if you got stuck or something (i.e. if this type of tinkering becomes your near-future venture). Such info and dudes are also scattered around in the diy audio forums.

Think of it as tube rolling, op amp rolling ,power cable rolling, speaker cable rolling, etc whatever....You are just ’rolling’ your internal crossover and wires now. Some ’rolling’ attempts could fail and you could always roll back to Peter, in such instances. Some rolling attempts could one up Peter’s design...that’s how it works.

+1  @tomcarr 

I agree with @stereo5 ​​@mapman @erik_squires 

OP, you asked for some thoughts. I wouldn't do it.

Already mentioned but still want to add my two cents....

From  real world experience, not just what I read or watch on youtube....

I would dive deep into this and learn all you can first then look at not just wire but also the resistors as those look like sand cast. Inductors as I found foil much more to my liking, capacitors, hard to tell what you have from pics of the crossover.

And wiring.

And solder.

And binding posts (or lack of, I prefer direct wiring to the crossover or if possible to the driver terminal and I always solder the driver wires)

Some components will not matter, those directly in the signal chain are far more likely be the ones to look into.

Some changes you might like but if you do the research and pick parts that fit your particular tastes you might save time and money on the upgrades.

If you have any issues with a particular aspect of how they sound you can focus on that and tune them to your liking, at least I hope there is room in the design to accomplish that.

-----------

The advice to contact the manf might prove the best course to follow so I would at least ask but it might not pan out, some might not like getting asked such questions, sensitive egos and all. I do not know nor have dealt with this designer so not pointing him out, just general thing to consider. I have had to deal with many stubborn "engineers" in my lifetime of modding things.

FAR more important, have fun:)

Rick

I like the make the internal connections better if possible idea more.  That can only help and not hurt if done right.

Also I would add that tinkering with a product often leads to less interest and value on the resale market if properly disclosed because now the product is not what the original vendor sold, but something some guy decided to experiment with.  

Ultimately, the decision to tweak or not is yours. It will be an experiment with unknown results until you try. Is that OK with you?

@bobbyloans  -  After reading through the posts, it got me thinking.  So, something to consider, or not....  If you are looking to dive in and tinker, learn what things can improve SQ, or just change it, rather than experiment on your $$ main speakers, maybe purchase some inexpensive speakers (inexpensive being relative) and play around with them instead.  Especially if you get something that was more mass market with more "compromises" that you can "correct".  Hey, and maybe acquire 2 pair so you have a baseline to reference.  LOL  

That might be fun.

- Jeff

@grannyring 

Good research, and comments.  Well done.

@ghdprentice Thank you,

IMHO, internal wiring does not do all the much, that being said, I have never used any exotic wire, just OFC copper. Unless I'm putting in a new XO, usually just keep the OEM wire.

Also from experience, take a picture of all the connectors before you remove any of them. If any of the terminals are not marked +/- mark them before removing anything!!!!! Nothing is worse than spending hours swapping parts out, only to have something out of phase. It will never sound good, and you will curse yourself chasing it down. Woofers are usually easy, mids/highs can be tough to tell phase. 

Crossovers will yield huge benefits! However, it will also cost a lot to do correctly. Spending $20 on a single resistor, or over $100 on one cap. Just know, for a 3 way, simple XO it can be $500 in parts.

Don't forget the binding post, this is another area where most manufactures cut corners. Even speakers that cost $10k can have $10 binding post in them. Take a magnet to them, if it sticks, you want new post.

@bobbyloans If it ain't broke don't fix it.......unless you are an audiophile...you know you want to noodle around. Why not. @waytoomuchstuff makes excellent points in the how to department. But before you get to your workbench is your room treated?

Second guessing oneself is par for the course. You may also need to see the voodoo priest Xanthos Terwilliker to cast a spell eliminating confirmation bias of your hometown pride in your modifications.

I took the time to look at your speaker’s crossover online and the builder makes both access and visibility of parts very easy! He did a very nice job on the design and cabinet. The parts quality changed over time with this speaker as can be seen in photos. Some images show only sand cast resistors used throughout while other images show sand cast resistors only on the low pass portion of the crossover. Some pics show the use of Clarity PX caps and other pics show the better CSA. Not sure what set you have. The Clarity CSA caps are certainly good and better than what I see in most $15,000-$20,000 speakers I have opened up. This gives us some insight into the quality level of the parts he used. Peter used air core inductors throughout including woofers. This is an indication he is both aware and takes into account parts quality. However, all the cast resistors and Dayton caps on the low pass are a place he definitely saved money. Overall crossover parts quality is a mix of good and mediocre to be honest.  Peter obviously saved money on the low pass portion except for the inductor. 

I would certainly email him your serial number and ask him about the internal wire. Ask him about gauge especially on the woofers. Gauge is important on the woofers. I bet he shares the information with you as he does not seem concerned with hiding parts based on the design. I bet he simply used Mil Spec silver over copper wire based on what we see for parts quality. If he did, then know this kind of wire does have a sound personality. It can be described as pushing forward the upper mids and highs. All bulk hook up wire has a sound personality based on the design and materials used. You need to know what “change/improvement” you desire in the sound of your speaker. Looking for more warmth and body? Smoother highs? More fleshed out mids? More resolution? What are you desiring more and less of? Without knowing this you are lost and the end result may prove to be negative.

Lastly, are you experienced with this sort of soldering and DIY work? You could easily damage drivers without proper soldering tools and technique. Are you confident you can reassemble without damage or mistakes which could prove costly and a great big hassle. Getting inside and doing this kind of work is not for the faint of heart or unexperienced. It is a lot of work with attention to the details vital. Yes, internal wire quality does matter and can definitely impact the sound! The bigger questions are: What’s already in there? What is your end goal? Are you skilled at this?

@mapman Considering the amount of posts you post, your comment of - 'If you want to do it do it', is,,,, useless and unhelpful.

Manufacturer voicing is simply another take on sonic presentation, it may or may not correlate with your own preferences. This where you need to ask yourself what is missing or wrong with speakers in stock configuration. If you can't define what it is your looking for you're shooting in the dark.

As for expectations of the highest quality components based on price of speakers. Don't assume anything, have a look at those crossovers, if you've done your research you'll know quality. And don't expect the manufacturer to acknowledge they could have done better with design or parts used. They see you simply as end user, questioning them about such things will likely be perceived as criticism, you think they like that?  The above based on my experience with contacting any number of manufacturers with various ideas of mine. You may perceive it as being helpful in making their product better, they don't know you from Adam, you're not part of design team. In the one case where manufacturer adopted my parts mod, while somewhat irritated with me, the manufacturer did seem curious in regard to the specific capacitors I was using.

Bottom line, you own your equipment, you can modify to your heart's content as long as its for your personal enjoyment. Manufacturer's choice of parts used and/or voicing is not necessarily some kind of objective best, there may be some untapped potential they failed to uncover. 

@erik_squires i was just thinking the same thing. Seems like you love your speakers and just want to tinker.  If it were me I would tinker with a kit.  Scratch the itch by building a kit speaker where you can use whatever components you want.  In fact, you could buy different types of wire and see what, if any, effect they have.

@waytoomuchstuff 

Great post. I appreciate you sharing your experience and well reasoned logic in assessing the potential risks and gains of doing these modifications. 

If "Peter builds high quality equipment with nothing spared" it can not be "Internally it’s not so great".

Changing wiring probably would affect the performance, but if to your liking? It is impossible to know unless you go through the process. Only you can tell if it is worth the effort. 

I sound like "Captain Obvious"

OP:

I do want to warn you that you may be on the wrong path.  Maybe the path you really want to be on is building your own kits from scratch?

Plenty of those at Madisound or Parts Express or Meniscus.  Also, you probably want to head over to DIYaudio instead of Audiogon.

I did a "deep dive" into this subject under a post entitled: "Thinking Inside the Box."

As a enthusiastic "modder" of decent hifi gear, our objective is not to "paint a mustache on the Mono Lisa", but rather address compromises that the manufacturer would have faced with considerations related the manufacturing efficiency, in-field service considerations, and costs. "Costs’ can also include engineering time. This is a point where you have to stop designing, and start producing.

During an audio event, I had a nice one-on-one conversation with the owner of speaker company that had just produced a highly successful speaker that was rocking the audio world. After whacking the ball over the net a few times about the stuff that goes inside, he finally said: "Yeah, I get all of that. I just don’t want to argue with my engineers over it." I arrived back home and decided to do a "what the heck?" modifcation of those speakers, installing VERY good cabling, bypassing crimp connectors, reducing cabinet resonances, etc. When they came to visit a few weeks later, I just had to fire them up vs their (highly successful and very good sounding) OEM version. They sat there, expressionless. Then after a while, paused : "Okay, yours sound better. What did you do?". My answer: "Everything your engineers told you wouldn’t make a difference."

The real question here, Mr. OP, is "what DYI tweaks can I do at home to make them sound better?" Yes, cabling MAY be one of those tweaks. But there may be others.

First, cabling:

Dealing with unknowns will give ... eh ... unknown results. I’m betting that you’ve never heard the internal cabling compared to other cables? Then, replacing that cable with one (you haven’t heard) recommended by others is, yet, another unknown. All the stars may line up and you might get wonderful results. Or, it may be technically better in some regards, but the sound may not be of your liking. As a "modder" and dealer, we had a pretty big toy box to work with. Cabling on spools laying around from $5 per foot to several hundred $$$ per foot. We auditioned these cables over many decades connected OUTSIDE the speaker boxes, so we were pretty sure what we were getting into INSIDE as well. We heard, literally, dozens of cables over the years of different designs and manufactures , and we adopted our cable design preferences. We had a 90%+ certainty that what we were replacing on the inside was going to be sonicly superior to what was provided and had a very good idea of what performance gains to expect. Again, that’s us.

That being said, you picked your speaker cables for a reason. Chances are you auditioned many cables over the years and prefer the sonics of what you have. If these are available bulk, these would be the preferred cable to use INSIDE. Ideally, you’d get a length of the OEM cables and do an A/B comparison. Not likely, but ideal. This would remove any unknowns from the cable equation. If your preferred cables are available in bulk, they may be difficult to work with. If so, you may need to "dumb it down" a bit (smaller gauge, similar, but more workable design).

I like to take a best bang for the buck approach to speaker upgrades. You may obtain some obvious sonic improvements from doing some simple things FIRST:

- bypass EVERY crimp, spade, screw down terminal, and push-on connector and replace with direct silver solder directly to the posts. This is (usually) an easy DYI. Those crimp on connectors and terminal strips create another switch/relay point and are usually made of production-grade (cheap) materials.

- IF the horn body is not dampened, put Dynamat (or, equiviant) on the back side. This will dramaticaly change the focus, detail, and reduce the coloration of the horn driver.

- upgrade cablling

- replace crappy OEM crossover parts (if they exist).

Hope this was helpful?

You’ve gotten great advice.  I’d call and talk to Peter, in this hobby owners / builders, designers will often give candid, great advice on their products.  Not across the board but more often than in most industries.  If you have that itch, you will always want to scratch it, if you keep the old wire, take pictures, you can always reinstall the original wire if you don’t like the upgrade.  

The downsides are if Peter voiced the speaker not off of what the components cost but what sounded the best with his design and synergy with the other components, design, I wouldn’t mess around with trying to make the speakers “better”.  Peter, if he’s honest can point you in the right direction.