Accurate bass.
Do most people prefer tight bass or non tight bass?
Today I compared a McIntosh 462 to a Moon audio 761 amp. Both sounded really good. I noticed the bass was tight on the Moon Audio 761 while it was not tight on the McIntosh 462. Both on Dynaudio towers (do not know the model but they go for about 14k).
It is hard for me to know which type of bass I would like better in the long run. The tight bass sounded awesome and the non tight bass sounded more fuller. Curious, do most people prefer the tight bass or the non tight bass?
59 responses Add your response
I like lots of slam and impact with just the slightest bit of "bloom" and "rounding" to sound sweet and natural. High-power tubes amps (expensive) tend to pull this off really nicely. But if on a budget, you can’t beat solid state for bass - tubes on a budget can struggle here, relatively. |
It’s a matter of preference, room response, system character, and the bass in the recording. Ideally, it’s good for the system to reveal differences between recordings as opposed to having a constant bass characteristic/coloration, but nothing is perfect and many things can affect what’s heard. My smallish Dynaco 70 tube amps tend to have a softer bass bloom rather than an impactful tight slam and extension, but it was often on the pleasant side, depending on the recording. Adding the VTA mods helped, but the best solution I’ve achieved for good bass with my room and system is to bi-amp with a solid state amp to the woofers for low bass (below ~65hz), and tubes from the lower mids (lowest vocal range) and up. Best of both worlds. |
Your speakers+amps pairing should be able to reproduce the quality of bass that’s on the recording. @gdaddy1 and @audition__audio +1 on sealed LF enclosures |
@lordmelton +2 Mike |
Articulate, tuneful bass is absolute necessity for me. Resonant or one note bass once noticed can never be unheard for me. So stand up bass has natural resonance, this ok. As for overly resonant electric bass guitar, this no go for me. Tonal balance paramount, overly resonant bass will overwhelm mids and highs. |
The bass produced by both amplifiers are quite different, however they are completely different sounding throughout the rest of the range as well. Without getting into a heated argument, I gave up on tube amps a long time ago. The bass from a dc coupled amp, ime, follows any bass player, drummer etc. much more accurately, with greater speed, control and timing; superior start/stop, again, to my ears. I have had a few class D amps that also excel with bass, but overall, my large dc coupled class A amps do the best, for me. It is very personal and subjective, keeping in mind that the recordings are so varied. The producers of recordings are generally the ones who determine everything, from the mics used for vocalists, to everything else. Another thing....each component, more specifically the speakers / room / listening seat......heck, proper room tuning and set up, are all a huge part of obtaining proper and accurate bass, just as it is with sound staging and imaging. I hope everyone well. My best, MrD. |
I prefer a tight, accurate bass with texture (e.g., you can "hear the wood"). This is more a matter of the speaker rather than the amplifier, and I think that an accordion-edged woofer does a better job than a foam-edged woofer, regardless of size. With respect to amplifiers, what most determines the "tightness" of the bass is the damping factor with the higher the factor, the more accurately the woofer follows the signal (i.e., is tighter). "Damping factor (DF) in audio systems measures an amplifier's ability to control a speaker's movement after a signal stops. It's the ratio of the speaker's impedance to the total output impedance of the system (amplifier, cables, etc.). A high DF generally results in tighter, more controlled bass, while a low DF can lead to a softer, "flabby" bass sound." When looking at woofer specifications, a higher BL factor would infer a tighter bass, assuming a similar impedance. "In loudspeaker engineering, the BL factor, or motor force factor, represents the strength of the motor structure in a speaker driver. It's a critical Thiele/Small parameter (T/S parameter) that directly impacts a speaker's efficiency, sensitivity, and bass reproduction." |
Almost all HiFi woofers suffer from this problem (woofer dynamic offset) see below: ''Woofer dynamic offset is a problem long known about but seldom discussed or treated. With high input power at low frequencies, many woofers tend to shift their mean displacement forward or backward until the coil is nearly out of the gap. This is most likely to happen just above each low frequency impedance peak of a system. The result is a high level of second harmonic distortion and subjectively a bass character that loses its tightness at high acoustical output levels [4]. The cure for offset, as shown by T, H. Wiik [6], is a restoring spring force that increases in stiffness at high displacement in an amount that counterbalances the reduced B field at the extremes of voice coil travel. Such a nonlinear spider will in fact reduce distortion and eliminate the tendency to offset.'' See full article here. Mike |
Most people prefer Non tight bass, especially at first listen. It sells better even though it's less accurate. That's one of the reasons bass reflex bass loading has taken over from closed box. Reflex loading has fuller , richer sounding bass but it is less accurate. Reflex loading can NEVER be as tight and accurate as closed box when closed box is designed for tight bass. |
The world changed 15 years ago when main speakers began reducing the size of bass drivers. I think humanity is suffering because of this. Now all the modern day components have to deal with this issue but they couldn’t so now everybody has to buy large subs to address this deficient issue main speakers now have with smaller bass drivers. So people wanted main speakers that looked better in living rooms because they were thinner. But this didn’t work out too well did it because sound systems now have to use a pair of subs and that creates problems when it comes to floor real estate. I like somewhere between tight and non-tight. All about comfortable listening and migrating away from precise monitor like speakers.
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DAMPING FACTOR, see here Mike |
I like ghdprentice's description. What I don't like is bass created by or enhanced by the room or speaker placement therein. You lose too much of the clarity available in your speakers. If your speakers are deficient in the bass, i.e. small monitors you might be able to get good tight bass using a sub, or 2 or 3, in a complementary location. |
Yes. You can say that. The current reproduction technology always sound unclear than the original music. I like accurate bass. If an audio system can reproduce accurate bass, also, it can do mid-range too. More bass doesn’t mean it sounds better. Everything must balanced for pleasant listening experience. Compare systems’ bass below. Alex Original music https://youtu.be/OZ7EvYTCXGw?si=_sD5OaI_-l303UPm https://youtu.be/S71FaZBUElU?si=FKZT1R281lVXMZ0C&t=450 https://youtu.be/KAzhWyQzccw?si=NWleCHoPwHwI15Pr&t=6 |
+1 @mulveling Over the years, I’ve come to learn and appreciate the difference between articulate bass, bass bloom, and ‘bass slam’. Bass bloom, which is what you get with many low to mid priced tube amps can sound pleasant at first, but it also tends to hide the details, especially in and below the midbass region. It lacks that visceral impact that you sometimes crave. As mulveling mentioned, you need to go up to the big boy tube amps to get that, but they tend to be expensive to buy and maintain. Bass slam, while impressive at first, can get fatiguing after a while. IMO, it also takes away the musicality. I found that some SS amps have too much damping going on resulting in bass slam. what I did to learn the difference was to visit a lot of jazz clubs to understand what real drums sound like. They’re definitely not what it sounds like in most systems. I’m gradually tuning my system to approach the real thing but I’ll admit I’m far from the real thing and might not get there. But I’m getting closer.
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In general, I prefer the bass I hear from sealed box speakers with larger drivers, 10” minimum, 15” maximum, although I’ve never heard an 18” or larger, I might like it. The larger drivers seem to hit the lower notes better, and the sealed boxes don’t boom as much. Solid state amplification seems to dig a bit deeper than tubes which can roll off quicker, but may offer better tone. Tubes also reproduce the music as I remember it from the 60’s and seventies |
@dman777 Thanks for posting this. The tight bass is more accurate. McIntosh is using autoformers which is what is reducing the dynamics in the bass and the damping factor. Thanks for reminding me why switched from McIntosh amps. I was considering switching back. Which amp did you prefer for mids and highs?
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@hilde45 ....When it's tight, it's right. Goes for a lot of things, it do...😏 I think DocFreud would agree....kinky old fart.....*L* |
@tannoy56, my hearing checks great, and my "preferences" are, what they are. Tubes are not the best for me, when we are talking about bass slam, bass detail and bass control. I did state it is all subjective, and I do not appreciate your nastiness, however, I suppose you wanted a heated argument. ENJOY! MrD. |
The big ported 12 inch woofers on our Northcreek crossovered with custom Northcreek woofer zobel circuit Matrix 801 S2 speakers got tighter and go about a half octave lower going from a Jon Soderberg modified Threshold Stasis 2 with 250 watts per channel to custom built 140 watts per amp KT77 monoblocks. The bass became a lot more textured as well. And started blowing my pant legs around from 15 feet away. And everything else got better in fact. Better enough that I’ll never spend any money on the system again for anything other than KT77s and an occasional cartridge. |
I want my bass to sound accurate. I want a well recorded string bass to sound what I can hear live sitting close to a jazz trio, I want an electric bass to sound like an electric bass, I want a pipe organ to sound like a real pipe organ in a real hall. Other than that, we are talking damping factor/speaker interaction. They need to be matched perfectly whatever the combo. End of discussion so far as I am concerned.
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When you compare it to "live" to see if it's realistic, are you thinking live from the front row, 7th row center, the back? Big hall or small? How can you decide which of these versions are best? How can you know what the actual conditions of the hall were like in order to know if the recording matches up and is realistic? |
@theaudiohiffle This is true as far as it goes in reference to bass on any one particular recording. Playing a multitude of recordings over a relatively long period of time will expose tonal imbalances, non pleasing tonality will rear it's ugly head.
As for comparing to live, I'd suggest timbre is likely the only non variable we have for a reference. And even this problematic, what about amplification and sound reinforcement. And then we have synths and even analog instruments may have unique sound qualities, for example the woods used on any particular instrument, and this goes on and on. How about aural memory. I don't think many use live music as a reference anymore, home audio is far more about pleasing oneself. |
Absolutely tight, but a natural sounding bass. As if an actual jazz upright bass player is in the room. I’ve only heard that from an OB speaker I used to own that had 15” bass drivers that were created specifically for OB speakers. The thunk, the funk, were all there and they sounded as natural as I’ve ever heard. |
It totally depends on the music, sometimes I just want to feel the bass, other times I want to be able to discern the difference between a bass guitar and bass drum. Think most of the time, the bass resolution is in the recording. Some Hip-Hop will have bass boom, while some Blues will have tighter more accurate bass. In general, for 2ch, I like sealed boxes, including my sub. Want the tighter more accurate sound. Now in my HT, I just want the room to shake, music accuracy is less important. I can sit and listen to my 2ch setup all day, at moderate volumes. Only done it a few times watching music on the TV in the HT room, but it does become fatiguing over time. Some of that might be the 13 speakers, and 2 x12 subs. |
For me it ultimately starts with the amp and how it controls the speaker drivers. Clearly the Damping Factor spec is key….I don’t think you need a huge number but as always more is better. The Mac at only 40 is the main culprit, that’s too low. Something around 200 is my minimum for DF. My current amp is 1100 DF at 20Hz, for most part I have very tight bass and articulated well. Some recordings have a bloated low end so nothing you can do with that. Over all I prefer a tight articulated bass that still gives me deep notes and pressurizes my room very well, and I still can hear the other instruments. |
Hi-fi lore, was at one time you had to have a 15" woofer for good bass - due to the inherent low resonant frequency and large ability to move air - or something like that. These days smaller, faster 8" and less woofers are popular. Problem is they need long throw excursions to provide the volume at low frequencies that then increases distortion. Solution is, multiple small woofers to yield same area as a 15", but faster response with the same or less excursion travel. |
