Disagreements and Conflicts between Audiophiles have we lost our brotherhood and maturity?

ChatGPT is gonna solve this. Arguing with this, Chad guy is eventually gonna become fruitless. 

@gkelly im at a point where it’s not worth it.  The hobby is a place of happiness for me.  If I sell something I want people to be happy. I even let the try it first. Man I enjoy the music and chasing the live music sound that makes me happy.  I,don’t care for the arguing. 

I think a number of factors are in play. In ye olden times, pre-Internet, hi-fi bugs got together in person. There were far more "brick and mortar" stores where you would encounter like-minded people, as well as thriving audio clubs. (I was fortunate to be a member of the NY Audio Society back in the day when Hy Kachalski ran it out of his home in Rye NY). Even Pittsburgh, where I grew up, had a robust community of audiophiles who would get together at each other’s homes, at dealer showcases, etc.

Our culture changed along with the rest of the world via the Internet. Not just chat boards, but direct sales. Conventional stores withered; fewer occasions for people to share face to face. I think the nature of the web affords us a certain degree of insulation. I remember some of the snark I encountered 20 years ago or more on performance car boards-- I’m actually embarrassed that I engaged in some of it--

There is also an increasingly polarization between the uber high end and what the normal person would consider reasonable. This makes for a certain degree of hostility when someone endorses a 600 thousand dollar speaker or 250 thousand dollar digital server. Many of us built our systems when things audio were far cheaper and we traded up gradually. Today’s economic environment is in some ways more challenging and for someone who doesn’t have the considerable resources to buy "first tier" flavor of the day gear, the alternatives--things like Schitt, or DIY, or adapting "non-audiophile approved" products make sense. (There used to be a "kit" audio product market that only exists in very limited fashion today). But there is a divide that is often manifest in seeing a lot of the marketing for audio as "snake-oil." (I’m not disagreeing to the extent that some businesses are hyperbolic as are reviewers in finding "revelations" in every latest new shiny thing).

We have, in a broader sense, become siloed and to a degree, desensitized by our online world. (The recent sensation of the program "Adolescence" addresses this in the context of youth and Internet bullying). Presumably, most people posting here are not kids, but adults, yet we are still susceptible to attacking or pushing back. And though the issues over which we can argue are ultimately not life critical, it is easy to become "intense" over a position in such an argument. (I don’t view "argument" in a pejorative way, since I look at it as a process of refining issues, and a sort of classical learning sense, rather than a spat or antagonistic disagreement).

Although this board has changed as well-- some of the old timers rarely post here or have gone to that great listening room in the sky and I miss them-- I roll with it, and try to contribute where I can. I’m an older person now, and my priorities are not in building a system or finding a sonically spectacular record- I’ve been through it, and lived it, and if not complacent, feel like I’m in a place where I can enjoy what I have. But, the quest to achieve a goal (whether it is better sound or any other objective) involves a certain degree of competition, if not against others than against some benchmark. And that isn’t always a bad thing---it is part of what makes us seek out answers. And the process isn’t always smooth.

No elbow jabs intended by my remarks. If I got to a point where I thought this board was a shark pit of snark, I wouldn’t be here and would go silently into the night without fanfare. Cordiality is nice, I’m all for considered opinions here rather than in-fighting but I recognize the reality.

It's a challenge to post something that somebody won't debate.  Or, if you post what you have for gear, someone will tell you what's wrong with it and what you should have bought instead. If you asked for that information, great. If you didn't, those types of comments are deflating. 

It is much less fighting on Audiogon than it used to be but also much less of other things. And one hundred times fewer active participants.

There is $250k digital server ? This is a disaster.

Whart hit the nail on the head. The internet has brought a whole new way for people to communicate, audiophiles and others. In the old days, it was done face to face so treating others with respect was usually the way to go. Now it's done hidden in a cloud without any civility restrictions whatsoever.  And the weak minded usually takes advantage of the situation. What an easy way for them  to get even with all the people they can't deal with in real life. It's liberating. 

I chose to ignore them. Still a lot of respectful posters on here. It's really easy to differentiate them from the fakes. It sure is an adaptation challenge for us in our seventies, but I'm always up for a challenge. Heck I'm an audiophile! :)

Lots of bad influencers in high places these days. The results are predictable which makes it even sadder. 

@whart I agree with you. Things have changed. I started with a 2500 system. My system currently is 90k retail. Which I thought I would never do. But I don’t think it makes me any better than anyone else. It’s a sound signature i chased for years and now I caught it. I’m pretty much set for a long time. Some people say that but I’m set. Not putting anymore in. I’m just going to enjoy. I also stay away from guys that are arrogant and take offense to the smallest things. I don’t want to argue with folks like that anymore. I’m sick of the know it alls. I may not agree with you but it doesn’t mean I hate you.

@mapman I agree. You are right. Everyone has an angle nowadays. Not speaking truth.

@sls883 I understand that.  I sold someone something once and because I didn’t let them try the speaker cables fast enough they immediately trashed me and product that they really loved just 2 months earlier.  It became personal. Not musical but personal. I didn’t get into this for that. I just wanted people to enjoy the tunes and the brotherhood. But unfortunately, that’s the way it is. This hobby should be happy and stress free. People shouldn’t be know it alls and we should treat each other with respect. Not silly disdain 

Yup. It’s the age of the “unmensch”. It started back in the 80’s with Morton Downey Jr. and has gained ground ever since.  Things go in cycles. Maybe we are all ready for a change. 

@baylinor I agree. The internet allows you to be nasty and disrespectful to others. To say things with the finger’s you would never in person.  It’s said. But there is no longer a simple man code of respect. It’s say whatever you want because someone made you mad. 

@calvinj FYI: I paid 93k for my house in 1985.

Just an observation.

@uncleang I got it discounted.  I sold things.  I flipped gear. I probably paid half that because of all the selling , flipping and trading for work etc. 

There are some valid comments here concerning the internet and anyone able to say something offensive or inflammatory without fear of repercussion. I think of two drivers and driver A has some road rage and tries to get the other driver B to pull over. The driver B pulls over and as driver A gets out of his care screaming and hollering he notices driver B is getting out of his car and stands 6 foot 7 and weighs about 270lbs. The driver A turns around to get back in his car.... quickly. But of course there is more to think about. Audiophiles are not different than guys/gals who invest time and money into cars or artwork or anything. If one has susceptibility and vulnerability with respect to what they have invested and what they imagine they know (better than the next guy) they can be triggered. Arrogance plays a part too. We don’t like to be told our amps are not powerful enough or speakers are too bright. And the ones who tells us this.... may also not be the most knowledgeable or experienced either. The key is to show restraint and don’t be offended, don’t get pulled into a fight and remember that these are just boxes of fancy wires.... no more. Now in this political climate we are in, the topic turns into something far more important than audio and the vulnerabilities and susceptibilities we all have are pushed to higher ground.... because we all have beliefs, values and faith in something we feel are important.... and we FEEL know we know better than the next guy. There is much at stake... at least in the US and we all know it.

Let's keep the faith. There still is a code of civility and respect. All is not that bad.

@2psyop I realized something when my best audio buddy died 6 years ago. It’s just gear. You are gone and it all gets sold at a discount and you better enjoy everything about this hobby while you still here. I choose to limit the arguing with folks. I want joy out of this. Nothing more. Nothing less. Joy and peace.

On that note, I still laugh at the post that said "my greatest fear in life is that someday I will die,  and my wife will sell my system for what I told her I paid for it".  It's just a hobby.  We all need to step back sometimes and remember that.  Including me.  Cheers.

Inna, calvinj and bigtwin - I understand and I agree wholeheartedly.

@bigtwin if she finds this forum I’m in trouble. Lol. 

Lots of bad influencers in high places these days. The results are predictable which makes it even sadder. 

@mapman absolutely this. There are bad examples in prominent places and people are following suit, sadly.

@mapman @jmera it used to be balanced and organic.  Now experts pop up out of no where. 

The forums definitely aren't as much fun as they once were, but in the other hand, I don't think there has been as much vitriol lately as in the recent past.

One either serves or seeks to subjugate their ego.  

It's simple there is viral meningitis this is a known fact.covid is a virus and causes drastic changes in some people.almost the whole world tested positive for covid just like the flu. I had patients on multiple times test negative 4 times  they had all the symptoms. Its called a false negative.then the 5th time positive. I saw several people just change over the past 4 years and not for the good.i went to Greece and the college educated tour guide was angry due to the situation.the whole world was effected and mad angry. Stay healthy enjoy the music and the search.

Senseless spats and disagreements are just a part of life in general. No big deal, especially when it comes to something that’s as non-essential to real life high end audio.  Personally, I welcome respectful heated debates and disagreements. Happy listening.

For the most part, the people you are referring to are not audiophiles. Some people hate the concept of high end audio so much, they take time out of their lives to hate it. How do you debate someone like this? You can't. Its not a level playing field. When it comes to audio components, someone like you can be skeptical in a healthy way because you're just after the truth. Once you have it figured out, you take what you learned and apply it in any way it helps you.

The haters can't do that because they're not after the truth. They don't WANT the high end gear to make a difference. You can't compete with that and its why these debates never end. For them, its about emotions, not audio equipment.   

Interesting discussion.  I am a relatively new member of this forum.  One of the reasons I joined is that the topics involve music and equipment and that comments are mostly positive and constructive.  I have moved away from other sites because a lot of the topics have to do with politics and too many of the posts are negative and not helpful.  I find this hobby brings me joy and peace.  It’s an escape from the chaos in the world.  I think it’s up to each of us to remember why we got into this hobby in the 1st place, enjoy our musical journeys and help make this a positive forum.

The arguments and snark don't keep me off this site. I don't contribute a whole lot but I still get useful information and enjoy the daily updates in my email inbox when I wake up.

On another note, it is interesting to contrast Audiogon to other sites that have a different angle like Audiokarma. I haven't viewed that site for awhile, and while I do remember some bickering, they don't seem to have blowups like this one.

@whart well said.

Calvin

You obsesses over this stuff to much.  
The Internet tends to promote some online rudeness.  It isn’t unique to audiophilia. And then yes, audiophiles tend to be imo a bit grumpy.  We like to sit and listen and this tends to be a solitary activity that doesn’t welcome interruptions.

There is a lot of subjectivity -I think A sounds better than B- which tends to promote unresolvable bickering .  And there tends to be a lot of envy in terms of the levels that people can spend.

   Given all of the above this is a reasonably civil site.

   Personally I thank you for dropping the all caps in your thread titles.  All caps tend to fire my adrenal glands

+1  @whart 

The reason I joined was to ask hobbyists about things that they would know but others wouldn't -- typically technical questions about all things audio. I've gotten a lot of great answers here, and a number of threads I've started have had long and involved discussions delving into the parameters of different questions. Other threads have done this, too.

One amazing thread I remember had to do with my discovery that my to-be audio room had reversed polarity on the outlets. Several very knowledgeable folks here (almarg, RIP) had me checking outlets with a multimeter, reporting back, etc. and they helped me troubleshoot and solve that situation. A perfect use for a hobbyist forum. Another thread was about setting up my room, short-wall vs. long-wall. Again, the exchanges were iterative and constructive, and the hobbyists on the thread were drawing on long experience and relaying it to me, 

Threads that focus on specific brands are more likely to devolve into chest-beating contests and get nasty. Or, threads that involve people describing what something sounds like -- but without much control over variables necessary to figure out why things sound that way. 

I think it’s a combination of the internet allowing everyone a platform to fearlessly showcase their insecurities combined with the ability to comb through forums and regurgitate other’s opinions.  Often people have zero experience with the products they’re discussing, i.e. “Klipsch speakers are to harsh…” and when challenged, take it as some personal offense that has more to do with their childhood than the product they’re discussing.

There is a coarsening in our American culture. Rude, crude, selfish, crass and obnoxious is more and more commonplace today than when my old arse got into the hobby in 1978. 

There is also a lack of shame. Acting badly is no longer shamed or ashamed of. 

Then there is the polarity of politics. Just the mention of a certain name makes the mentally unstable launch into a hissy fit. 

It's not the hobby or the prices IMO- it's the rotten culture we suffer under. 

Personally, I can’t blame the internet for a person’s lack of civility, integrity, character or common curtesy to their fellow man. The internet just exposes who they really are... One thing I know for sure is that the same behaviors eventually transfer to their everyday life. They are no different than the people keying Tesla vehicles. I’ve run into a few interesting people on this forum. Unfortunately, they won’t leave and keep repeating the same behaviors. In my case, I asked one person to leave the forum after he attacked another member. Even though he is a longtime member, he continues to treat people poorly over and over again.

Calvinj, surely, you are not reaching this conclusion just now!  This country has been seriously and sharply divided for at least the last decade, if not more.  The loss of civil discourse has been AWOL for quite some time now.  What whart and some others have pointed out is true.  Our sad state of affairs has brought out the trolls and idiots who are not interested in the truth.  They just want to fight, argue and denigrate in order to try to make themselves feel better or superior.  I joined this site because I wanted to get guidance, input and recommendations from fellow audiophiles and learn something new as I went along.  I also wanted to share what experiences I've had, along the way, in the hopes of helping others, as well.  This is a great thread, so far, but there's a tad bit too much cryin' in your beer here.  There are still plenty of good, honorable, compassionate, loving people in this old, battered world and I find that most of the audiophile posts I encounter on this site are respectful and well-intentioned.  Once you separate the chaff from the wheat (i.e.  less knowledgeable pretenders & outright fakes from the honest, truthful audiophiles), I find one is able to get great advice & guidance on this site.  That being said, however, nothing replaces doing your due diligence (i.e.  hearing it for yourself with your own two or however many ears you have).  Peace!  Love!  Remember those sentiments?    

I agree with all, but I usually  I dislike most arguments as they can be destructive in any relationship. But the old saying "There's one in every bar" rings true.  

Calvin,  Yes, I agree with your comments and post.  When a member asks others for their opinion on something there is always a group of folks (experts) who need to lambaste that person and shoot down their experience.  These negative encounters have trained me NOT to engage with this group as much as I have in the past.  Most threads that I may have something valuable to contribute to I just pass over due to the expected negative feedback.....

We all hear differently, enjoy many different genres of music & like many different aspects of hifi systems. Opinions & tastes cannot be right or wrong & anyone who’s married or been in a relationship for any length of time knows this well.

I’m guessing the average age of most people on this site is 50+ so we grew up w/ no or minimal internet, computers, cell phones & social media. Thus we all should know how to reasonably communicate in a sane & cordial manner having to do so directly or at least over the phone & probably know that we can learn from anyone

I’ve had a good or very good system since I was a teenager as time & money permitted some of which I built or modified & some just stock. I was in the pro sound industry many years ago & learned a lot  then. Some aspects of music reproduction I’m very familiar with & some, especially digital & streaming, not very much. I’ve learned a lot from many folks here, try to contribute occasionally & really appreciate & respect the knowledge & experience of many contributors. 
 

I just ignore or chuckle at those who want to make this an ego contest. They have to live w/ themselves which is punishment enough…

I think the responses in this thread show us how strong the community is here at Audiogon especially.  @052rc I agree most of the people OP is referring to are not audiophiles, but online trolls with nothing better to do than to talk smack to strangers on the Internet.  And spend their life whining rather than working and so will never experience truly high end gear.  I would argue that the vast majority of audiophiles, especially Audiogon posters are actually quite civil.  It's unfortunate that the loudest and rudest people are naturally heard the most.  This makes it seem that the majority is this way when that is far from the truth.  Enjoy your system and focus on the majority of people here who are good folks that just want to talk about their passion!  Don't let the haters get you down! 

Nostalgia can bring out golden memories. I recall bitter arguments and name calling from early days of social media and this site in particular. No doubt there has been change, likely mostly in me in that in my learning phase I used this forum as a resource, many of those members no longer here, sigh.

I agree civil discourse in general is on a downward spiral as people have become inured to all the fussing and fighting. For far too many free speech means exactly that, including being free of consequence. Well, sorry to welcome you to the human race but the things we say have consequence, and our present society/culture is one of those consequences.

I enjoyed meeting Calvin at SWAF and thought his room was really well done.

This forum can get a little rough, but it’s never going to be that serious, it’s just listening to music. Maybe a few things to keep in mind that might help:

take it with good humor. I remember a few years back the epic and vicious battle that involved MC and Kevin Deal about some tube amps, maybe Prima Luna and something else. Went on for days and was entertaining in the same way that a big-time wrestling event at your local National Guard armory is entertaining, but at the end of the day, nobody got hurt.

if somebody is new to this, they might ask a question that seems elementary to you, but it’s not to them. Don’t condescend.

people can have differing opinions, and it’s not any reflection on their character or intellect. People who believe cables don’t make a difference are not inherently evil and those who think they do are not inherently gullible. Take issue with someone’s position, don’t attack their character or intelligence.

how pleasing a system sounds is, at the end of it, subjective because we all hear differently. what is soft and veiled to me might be musical to you
 

don’t judge someone by how much they have invested in their system. People have different resources and different priorities. Just because someone has a more modest system doesn’t mean they enjoy the music less  or know less about whatever topic is under discussion. And just because someone has invested more, it doesn’t mean they are a “fool.”  You can define the price of something, but you can’t possibly define what represents value to another person. 
 

no matter how good you think your system is, or how much you paid for it, there are folks out there that would consider it “mid fi”
 

Keep politics out of Audio discussions

realize that your experience may often be instructive for others seeking help but the solution you chose isn’t universally right or wrong, it’s just what worked for you.

something that bugs me to no end - never rain on somebody’s parade. If someone just bought something new and they are happy and proud, don’t be the one to tell them they made a terrible decision, paid too much , or could’ve bought X, which is much better. Why would you want to trample on someone’s joy?

realize that there are very few of us as into Audio as those on this forum. Everyone else thinks we are a bit strange by devoting so much time and money to this. So we really should stick together.

I enjoy reading this forum it’s something I do every day. I’ve benefited from the advice of some very smart people here which I appreciate. This is for fun and if you find yourself attacking someone personally, it might be a good time to turn off the computer and listen to music for a while.

it’s a great pursuit and wonderful to have the chance to share ideas with others who have the same appreciation for the music

@whart

I agree

The current broad sense of polarization can and does color audio discussions (and many other topics of online discourse). This most often occurs unconsciously, so self-awareness is very helpful -- in other words, paying attention to those instances when others’ words begin to trigger us disproportionately.

There is also the fact that as humans, we are all susceptible to lashing out, given the right provocation. We’re all subject to being taken over by the reptile brain. This can occur even when outward circumstances are relatively harmonious.

There are those who deride a desire for civility as weak. They regard their capacity for verbal rough and tumble as a badge of honor -- of manly toughness. They appear to enjoy sparring and don’t mind when things get nasty-- "One in every bar", as @boxcarman put it. I try to ignore them.

I have noted that on the What’s Best forums, discourse is uniformly civil. I’m not sure whether this is due to more active intervention by moderators or something else but there is, at times, a marked contrast.

In the end, it’s up to each of us to decide how we’re going to behave and what sort of climate we wish to promote. We don’t have much control over others’ behaviors.

@calvinj 

Sadly it’s everywhere. People are more emboldened by being able to hide behind a keyboard.  For example, how many times has politics rudely popped up in our usual mundane conversations? I’m not saying there isn’t a time and place for it, but there should never be any of the anger that seems to come with it. 
 

My tubes better than your tube!!

I’m personally not bothered by a little back and forth on these sites, even if it parts from audio for a while. It’s a forum and sometimes they take funny shapes.

There is one communication style that I find annoying. I’m not sure what it’s called but tits when member speak of a component as the best, incredible, an end game, but it’s not far from what they had last time it was the best, end game, etc. It’s like they will get money for selling others on the product. Deep down you know it’s junk (compared to the wide world of audio) and they will soon list it for sale, if it’s not listed already.

Next they move to something else that’s "the best". It’s most likely from the same dealer that got them hooked on a slight "endless wallet" discount, and it’s cyclical. This annoys me because I’ve seen people earlier on in their journey listen to this and follow, only to find themselves back to square one again. It’s likely not even intentional but when we are in forum where some are looking for guidance it’s best to be realistic and have a strong foundation before having the fullest glass ever, lol.

Audio is such an individual pursuit and for me the path has been a big part of the enjoyment (except boxing heavy speakers) and is anyone really ever wrong? It's just often the tone, or way it said, and that's probably as hard as finding a warm system with great presence and detail.

The site seems calmer than ever but I haven’t been on as much lately.

Personally I thank you for dropping the all caps in your thread titles.  All caps tend to fire my adrenal glands

This

I've noticed a couple of things. 

The more technical or narrow-focused a forum or thread is, the more likely the conversation is to be friendly and informative always. There are long-running threads on here that are oases of courteousness and incredible fonts of knowledge. They're like that favorite hole in the wall joint you retreat to when you need a little haven of quiet.

It seems that the more inconsequential the topic, the more likely the discourse is to devolve into nastiness. People fight a lot more readily about audiophile fuses, Ethernet switches and digital streamers than about amplifiers and speakers.

Yes, ignorance and stupidity breed animosity, but in fairness that's true everywhere. An irritating trend of late has been some folks dropping politics into just about every thread they visit, like cows dropping cow pies every three steps. Fittingly for a stereo site, I guess, it's just as loud from the left as it is from the right, but still. You know who you are. Please stop.

@whart thank you for a very thoughtful post.

@curiousjim man I had a customer once was a good dude.  Got mad because I didn’t send him speaker cables to demo fast enough and went off on me. Man he was a good dude till that happened. Started going bad on me on this forum and others.   Man our cables made his system sing. Then he got mad and it all went bad.  Man I’m at a point where I want to help audiophiles.  That’s why I do free cable demos.  I give people opportunities with Infigo cables to try stuff. If they like it cool. If not then cool.   I listen to the music and our systems to make us happy. I’m not here to argue. I’m here to enjoy the tunes and the brotherhood. We just left Southwest Audiofest.  We were playing some blues. Lightnin Hopkins and just having a blast. Telling stories and nodding our heads to the great sound. That’s why I do this! 

The only person you have any control over is yourself. When dealing/conversing with others, set a positive example, don’t assume bad intent, and grant the other person some grace.

When buying and selling it matters who you deal with. If it smells bad, it probably is so, move on. There will be other opportunities. Since this is your business, find your own balance between sales and risk.  Consider your expectations and treatment of actual customers (who regularly purchase from you) vs. prospects.

When posting, if you have something to say then say it but, once is enough. Disagree respectively. If things deteriorate, step away. I would probably reserve the term brotherhood for my friends, but I certainly appreciate respect and maturity and I try to remember (not always successfully) that those qualities can start with me. At the end of the day, it’s just a stereo. Enjoy the music.

I'm guilty myself for participating in pretty bad discussions, but I'm learning to behave.  Late Almarg gave be an example how to behave that I will try to follow.