Anyone else constantly curious about amps?

What are the speakers?

I didn’t care for a Sugden and Devore combo. I found the amp on the bright side but I typically steer towards tubes.

I had the mastersound 24 watt 300B many years ago. Great amp, not familiar with the one you own.

@displayname Listen, might as well not avoid the inevitable, go ahead and ease out a little further and if need be call the wife as I am sure she will give you a little push. Enjoy the music

@bjesien the speakers are Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo Series 1. My room is fairly small at about 12x15. 

@tooblue I wish my wife would give me the little push. I have a new rack on the way, so I think any additional gear talk is going to result in either a death stare or an eye roll, lol. 

The trick is to get into inexpensive small amps you can afford to keep 3-4 of and rotate in and out over time.  Especially fun to do with smallish tube amps. 

The only cure is no money.  Have 5 integrated and 12 pairs of speakers. 

@erik_squires and @dwest1023

I've actually never been one to keep a lot of equipment. Always want to focus in going all in on something I love. This issue now has become affording the things that I love 

If you want to leave tubes, I think you have to go higher than any Rowland, Pass or Sugden. This means top SS level - Boulder, D'Agostino, Gryphon, Vitus, Soulution, DarTzeel, maybe Accuphase etc. You can't afford them, not even close, so forget about it, enjoy what you have or go a little higher with tube amp.

Rolling tubes is cheaper and less radical of a change.

You only live once.  Try some freakin amps if you want to!   Have fun!   

All competently designed amps of low noise, low distortion and low output impedance will sound indistinguishable. Tube amps with their high output impedance are excluded. They will track a speaker's impedance curve and have a non-flat response.

Nothing wrong with the way you feel. Perhaps your analytical side says a streamer will net you the better sound but your subconscious is telling you an amp will do it. Without getting into the psychology of it. Perhaps your subconscious it right. Amps really impact the sound of your system... of course all the components do... but the steamer is a bit more about detail fine nuance and the amp is about heft among other things. Your speakers are not tremendously efficient... so, it is very possible a great amp would make a huge difference. 

It also sounds like you are really wondering what a real audiophile piece of equipment sounds like. When I got my  first job out of college I took out my first loan to buy a true state of the art piece of audiophile equipment... a Threshold s500 amp... $5K... $20K in today’s dollars. It was one of a couple revelatory leaps of faith I took that lead me to the great / rewarding journey I have been on to assemble the system I have today. 

Maybe consider, making that leap. Don’t rush. Take a trip to a city... spend the weekend, visit several places. Research the heck out of it. Then find some way to finance / pay for a really great amp. Typically I will have an amp for ten to twenty years, before I upgrade, I had a Pass x350 for 17 years and only lost 500 dollars from what I paid for it! Audiophile stuff keeps its value long term. 

I've long been curious about amps and wanted to try a variety of topologies. Solid state, both class a/b and class a, one of the class a powered via four wheelchair batteries. Push pull tubes with many varieties of power tubes, SET's using 845, 300B, 2a3. Now looking for a 2a3 or 45 SET to add to my 300B. Also looking at 300B's with interstage transformers.

Buy used! 

@ghdprentice I think you’re absolutely right. I’ve been lucky enough to be exposed to several truly high end systems in homes with amazingly built out rooms, some designed from the initial home build. I’ve been spoiled and deep down I’m just continuing the journey to try to bring some of that home. 

And I think you are absolutely spot on with being patient, and being willing to travel to demo gear. I suggest that to others often, but more I’m really starting to enter the price points where I need to heed my own advice, and patience really is the key. While I would never finance that type of investment, I can save for it. And that’s what is going to be required. Patience, saving, exploring and committing. 
Sometimes I just need to hear it from someone else, so thank you. 

OP  Someone talk me off the ledge and help me with this sickness!

Listen below. Maybe you'll forget MS amp sound. Alex/Wavetouch audio

https://youtu.be/LlYlIvmmg3c?si=H5JZCeyscqAecaMM&t=475

Anyone else constantly curious about amps?

Yes. Consider Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE Integrated Amplifier see here.

Mike

Interesting timing with your post.  I just setup my system at our summer place. I had removed all of the equipment except for the dipole tower speakers I got used so I could let them stay the winter without worrying.  Acquired a more powerful used amp over the winter and was planning on upgrading the speakers.  I streamed a few tracks and played a CD and I couldn’t believe how much better the speakers sounded.  I’m set for now.  Glad I didn’t get another pair or speakers since I’m trying to consolidate what I have.  We all give you the push you need to buy the amp of your dreams!  Side note, I’m getting too old to lug gear back and forth.  Everything stays from mow on.  If the mice want to jam in the winter they can.  

I too am one that what ever I get into I’m all in.  But I’ve learned it’s as much about the chase as it is the capture.  I’ve also learned I can not trust my own logic as to what I need to make the next step.  I have to seek expert unbiased advice.  
One thing I have learned is I am a tube amp guy.  I can listen for 8 hours plus and never fatigue.  With solid state or hybrid integrated amps after a couple hours I am worn out.  Now that my be peculiar to me but at least I’ve eliminated a large section of the amp market.

Thats my experience and opinion which in the big scheme of life is meaningless.

I’ve owned SS, hybrid and tube amps over the years and found all can provide quality sound.  The best part has been the experience in the exploration of each type!  I’m currently running a powerful Simaudio Moon SS amp that is wonderful paired with a tube preamp.  Time will tell if I’ll want to go back to tube amps.  

Curious about amps? How could you NOT be? I'm with you!

Why? Because there is no such thing as a speaker on its own. The basic unit is a speaker-amp. Their pairing is about "synergy" which means not just "sufficient power" but "pleasing interaction." 

In my room, I have had:
Class A:

• Pass XA 25
• Pass Aleph

Tube:

• Linear Tube Audio ZOTL Ultralinear+
• Quicksilver Mono 60 tube amps

Solid State:

• Adcom 535L
• Benchmark AHB2
• Hypex-based Class D amp built around Burson OP amp.

And everything has been tried both with a very neutral SS preamp as well as with a tube preamp.

All these amps sound different. And not just better/worse but different. And I've tried many of them with different speakers.

The point is that the investigation of "synergy" is a key part of what I'm interested in, and trying different amplifier-speaker combos is the heart of it. And if you're settled on your speakers, what more could you owe them, and your system, than to try out the right amps until you find what brings out their potential (for you, in your system)?

That's one of the nice things about tube amps.  You can change the tubes out relatively inexpensively and change the amps sound, giving you a new experience each time.

I admit to being a bit curious about Airtight tube amps. Not monoblocks, but integrated. Same for VAC.

@hilde45 I'm glad you mentioned the mentioned the LTA amps as well. Those have been on my radar, and I was lucky enough to hear their gear in two different systems at SWAF. The Areo Dac is very interesting, and something I would strongly consider. The amps sounded good, but it's so hard to judge them not only at a show, but also when they are shown with panel speakers only. Nothing wrong with panel speakers, but they don't really give me a sense of how they might pair with my normal box and driver speakers. Anyway around it though, the LTA Z40+ is also on my radar. 

@jasonbourne71 the weekly reminder from Jason Bourne for all of you dummies that think amps sound different.  Jason have you ever been in a legit treated room with multiple amps with similar distortion curves and tested them?  I'd guess not.  So please allow those who actually have used this gear talk rather than just regurgitate the ASR line of "it all sounds the same", espousing a single small scientific study from the 70s which has been disproven countless times. I assure you that your class D amp with 120+db SINAD will not come close to my Pass Labs XA30.8 in realism or imaging regardless of how it measures.  If you still feel the need to post this on every amp discussion though, do you.  It's a free country.  Just know that those of us with high end systems are rolling our eyes.

OP, yes I have this disease.  When you have a fully treated room with high end gear, the difference between amps is not subtle.  I've tested over a dozen amps in this configuration.  No amp sounds just like another.  There's a reason why Nelson Pass uses measurements AND listening tests to determine these things!  Whether everyone can hear these differences is another discussion entirely

I'm not familiar with your speakers, but judging from the specs, I don't think you have enough power.  They may play "loud enough" but you're not really hearing what the speakers can do, even at lower listening levels.  Also, you've got single-ended amps which won't give you the bandwidth that a push-pull tube or SS amps will.  I'd shoot for at least 40 wpc, or if you insist on lower power, get something that has some decent low-end response.

@jrareform in my experience you really don't even need a treated room or ultra high end gear. You just need a decent room, decent equipment, and a GOOD setup. I've been in several rooms that offer this (including my own) and the difference between amps is pretty instantly apparent. 

@dogearedaudio I think that’s a reasonable statement, and it’s something I’ve thought about. I don’t feel on the day to day that I’m lacking power, but I have considered several higher power options. The class A power is consistently surprising. Like I said, I’m honestly quite happy with my amp. This is much more of the case of wondering eye than trying to fix a specific problem. There’s a reason it’s one of the longest standing pieces in my system. 

Even when I’ve demoed other higher power amps in my room, I still very much appreciate the tone of my Mastersound. That’s also why I have the curiosity around the Class A solid state options. I’ve not felt my power was lacking, so that makes me curious what similar powered SS would bring to the table. And in my original post I even mentioned the ultra high power Rowland options. That’s a direction I hadn’t previously considered, but after hearing their higher end products, I’m curious what the integrated would be like. Honestly the research rabbit hole changes constantly and I tend to refocus to systems that really stood out in my mind. I’ve only heard Rowland twice, and both times the systems really impressed me. I’ve heard Acoustic Research in a number of systems, some that I loved and some that didn’t appeal to me. Pass and Sugden have escaped my ears to this point, which is what has really sparked my curiosity. 

@jrareform  this is the same guy who says a sound card is just as good as any DAC.

I have tried 10+ amps / preamp+amp combinations in the last 10 months so I can totally relate. Always looking for "better", sweeter, fuller....

For a DAC, my soundcard is just perfect. 

It seems to me that in the quest to find the best sounding audio system, many audio enthusiasts may start out with the intent of upgrading their current system one component at a time, and eventually upgrade further components until the system is one that they are happy with.  From then on, it seems that they tend to focus on what they perceive to be the weakest link in their system, and then routinely change out that component, whether it's a turntable, CD/DVD player, streaming device, amplification or speakers. 

I’m also a tube guy at heart and I tend to keep tube gear a lot longer than when I have solid-state electronics.  I get bored with SS amps/integrateds after 6-8 months and look to try something different; whereas, whenever I’ve had a tube setup (tube separates or a tube integrated), I’ve held onto it for as long as 5 years without making any changes.   

In the late 90’s, I attended this Stereophile Single Ended Symposium in Philadelphia and it was the first time I ever heard SET amps and was completely blown away.  It literally was a whose who of industry people and I heard SET amps from Audio Note, Berning, Cary, Fi, Caztech and a few others using 845s, 211s, 300Bs and 2a3s on very efficient horn speakers and concluded while they all sounded incredible and was the b3st thing I’ve ever heard, it was the least expensive and lowest powered 2a3 monos from Fi that sounded best to me.
 

About 7 years later, I attended another stereo show in Central NJ put on by Vacuum Tube Valley magazine. On that day, I heard her many different setups, solid state Class A, AB, SET, PP, Class D, Class D with a tube preamp, and 15 or so different tube amps ranging from 300Bs, 2a3’s, 45s, 10s, 845s, EL84, EL34s, 6L6s, 6B4Gs, 6550s & KT88s.  Prior to that day I never heard a Class D amp or single driver speakers.  At the end of the day, my 2 favorite setups was an Italian SET amp that was demoed using 45s,10s, 2a3s, 300Bs and 52s on single driver Laemhorn speakers and an EL84 Dyna mkII reissue on single driver Omega speakers.  A close 3rd was a custom Dynaco Stereo 70 using 6B4Gs in PP Triode on Rogers LS3/5as. 
 

So, to the original post, maybe just pick up a couple SS amps of excellent performance at a reasonable price with different power ratings that you can swap in and out to keep it fun.  You can run the SS amps in the summer and the tube gear in the winter.

Some reasonable priced Giantkillers are:  

(200 wpc) B&K EX442 or EX442 Sonata, PS Audio 200C or 200CX, Perreaux 2150, Aragon 4004

(150 wpc):  Tandberg 3002, Moscode 300, VSP Labs TransMos 150, Odyssey Stratos, Nakamichi PA5

(100 wpc & below):  Classe Ten, Aragon 2004, Meitner STR50, Robertson 4010, Quad 405-2, PS Audio 100C, Acoustat TNT120.

Have fun and enjoy the journey.

@displayname I was very impressed by the LTA – the cleanness and the wide and articulate soundstage was phenomenal. It is a tube amp but not overly warm. If you are curious, reach out to me because I know a standup guy selling one. (It’s not me.)

I thought this comment on Audiogon was accurate (I also own the Pass XA25 and did this same comparison): 

"The LTA has a big sound with an expansive soundstage that seems to wrap around you whereas the XA25/EAR combo seems smaller but more nimble by comparison. The LTA’s big sound doesn’t come at the expense of detail. In fact, certain “decorative” sounds like bells, triangles and non-drum percussion seem to stand out more with the LTA. Same with vocals, which are quite forward in the mix and, possibly, not to everyone’s liking (personally I prefer it). The XA25 wins on dynamics. In fact, with the Spatials, for me, this is one of the best things about my system. But the LTA is entirely satisfactory in this department as well. Finally, to my surprise, the LTA has amazing, addictive bass that makes the Pass Labs (which until I heard the LTA, I thought produced more than adequate bass) seem anemic in the lower registers. I like the Pass Labs bass enough that I don’t use my subs. With the LTA I would say the bass I get might actually be too much for some ears. Subs are absolutely not needed."

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/lta-ultralinear-plus-integrated-vs-pass-labs-xa25-ear-868pl

One thing about your setup to consider is that you might be missing out on soundstage, bass, or control at higher volumes because the amp likely isn't controlling your speakers as much as others might like. In your shoes I might try for a 40 wpc tube amp or higher. Slipperly slope because the price goes way up and so do the changes, not always for the better. 

If you like the tone and are okay with stage, etc, about adding a subwoofer? It’s similar to adding an amp because you are. Since your speakers are not super efficient this would allow you to keep the tube sound you like and get a good bit more low end energy and performance.

A sub will make your setup a little more relaxed imo without taking anything away for you mains. I don’t know the impedance curve of your speakers but it might improve the 50-100hz region as well based on how you set it up. 

One thing about your setup to consider is that you might be missing out on soundstage, bass, or control at higher volumes because the amp likely isn't controlling your speakers as much as others might like. In your shoes I might try for a 40 wpc tube amp or higher. Slipperly slope because the price goes way up and so do the changes, not always for the better. 

I’ve owned dozens of speakers and for my taste you really have to pay for good bass. Typically upwards of 15k or so. YMMV. Work your speaker positioning and some simple treatments too.

Enjoy!

I've been amp curious for a very long time.

Recently I've been interested in some of the lower power pentodes that are also meant to be easy to drive, like the EL95 and EL84. If amps based on these tubes are designed properly there's not an SET made that can keep up by any metric audiophiles value. They really can work quite well! 

One hero in this department is the Dynaco ST35. Its inexpensive, compact, and if properly refurbished, very musical. I recently rebuilt one with new filter caps, new RCA connectors, and set it up to prevent ground loops with a grounded AC power cord. If you have speakers that don't need a lot of power this amp is surprisingly neutral and musical.

I've also had an interest in some of the Electro Voice amps from the mid and late 1950s. These used a Circlotron output similar to what we've been using in our OTLs for the last 47 years.

@atmasphere I LOVE my ST35. Bought it and refurbished it thanks to your suggestions. What a gem. I was powering 87db bookshelves with it yesterday (Acoustic Energy AE500) and it sounded luscious. Just great.

"I can't afford it"?? That should be your answer right there.  Why get the forum involved?

Someone talk me off the ledge and help me with this sickness! 

Not easy to do as many of us are in the same boat - our wants don’t measure up to our pocketbooks.  I too like variety to keep it interesting and fun.  

That's why being a manufacturer and repair shop we get to hear so many pieces of equipment every day.  To be perfectly honest, upgrades to parts can make a more significant sonic improvement.  Swapping out gear is not the way to go.  Also, one amplifier may sound good with a certain preamp but another amplifier may not as good with the same preamp.  That's just how it goes.

Happy Listening.   

"I can't afford it"?? That should be your answer right there.  Why get the forum involved?

I would suggest you get a new hobby

what a friendly crowd.

@gano +1

"Why get the forum involved?" is a laugh out loud line. 

First, since when did "the forum" need someone to speak for it?

Second, this person got involved in a thread he didn't think worthy. Therefore, he's complicit. 

No one likes a nosy cop.

Interesting that no one mentions Ayre

If I can afford it, I don't really want it. It's not logical, but I like to take time to ponder the pro's and cons. I only recently discovered SHARK (buy reading this sites comments). I planned to upgrade my current amp, a Yamaha AS 701, (something I easily afforded), with a Luxman SS. soon. But now, I can skip this upgrade and go straight to a new valve preamp, and big monoblocks,(used). You see I cannot afford either today, but soon maybe 3 months. To me it is like a hunt, to seek out and acquire somethig that I know will probably be replaced within 6 years. I am learning things like, there will allways be a market for a used pair of KRELLS, but who wants a used YAMAHA budget amp?

sorry to bore you with the obvious.

IAN.

@gano +2, @hilde45  +1

Mike

re

I can't afford it.

Since when did it stop anyone?

This entire culture is about buying things we can't afford. In most other countries you have to have the money in your bank or in your hand + plus the money for the parking meter and not penny less - before you walk out with a box from the dealer. 

@gano 

In most other countries ...

Why assume everybody here is from the same country as you?

@richardbrand 

I was speaking about the US. (where 9 out of 10 commenters are here) If you are from the UK, good for you. These days especially.

Oh no, don't start politics in this stream. America was great when all the other countries had thier factories bombed to oblivion. You americans acually profited from WW2. Without paying for any patents for our inventions, like the jet engine, radar, the cavity magnatron, sonar, penicilin, programable computers, rocketry, I could go on. You can keep our gold, and give it to some arsehole aliens, who just pretented to be the 'official aliens'. If you had the chance, you would have voted for Al Capone, or Michael Jackson. Just keep your hands off education.

IAN.

PS Thanks for the electric guitar.

@hilde45 Thanks for the additional feedback and the side message on the LTA. I plan to message you back but having technical difficulties apparently, but I'll figure it out. Didn't want to leave you hanging! 

@bjesien 

If you like the tone and are okay with stage, etc, about adding a subwoofer?

i have considered a sub, but for some reason it’s just never struck my curiosity in the same way. I’ve heard subs make a great difference in several systems. But I’ve equally heard them muddy things up for people. I know the set up in critical for good integration, and I’m sure I’ll go down that road eventually. But for right now, it just doesn’t excite me in the same way as so many other things in the system.