I'll start of by saying I have a really great sounding amp, the Mastersound Dueventi. It's a class-A tube amp running in PSET putting out 20 watts of power, which proves to be plenty in my room. I have other audio upgrades that would be more valuable. I've slowly been replacing cables, a new streamer would probably have the biggest impact in my system next, I'd like a new turntable now that I've stepped up my cartridge and phonostage...
But I just keep coming back to amps. For some reason I just feel a need to bring in something new. I can't afford it. It won't be the most high impact in my system. I don't really have anywhere to demo several of these options. But still, I've been on a two week long rabbit hole exploring solid state class A options like Pass and Sugden. I heard a top in system this past weekend with Jeff Rowland driving the system and I forgot how great those can sound, so I'm finding myself looking at their integrated. I know Norma amps sound amazing with my speakers, so I'm always tempted to bump that up the priority list.
Someone talk me off the ledge and help me with this sickness!
@gbmcleodI really intended this thread more for empathy of the constant struggle of wanting to hear everything but being limited by life, and my current ongoing distraction is a fixation with amps. I feel like I know what I'd upgrade every piece in my system with if I came into a pile of cash... except my amp. That's what's really sparked the curiosity.
But let me see if I can unpack my thoughts. The number one think I love about my Mastersound Dueventi is the vocal tone. That easily is the standout feature in my mind. String instruments are also a strong performer in my opinion. Other elements I really enjoy are depth of soundstage, and very respectable imaging. My speakers also have quite fast bass, but trades off with fairly light bass impact. It's a texture over slam pairing, and when faced with a choice, I would keep the texture even if it means giving up on some slam.
If I can find an amp that matches the Mastersound tone, that will spark my interest. If I can avoid tube maintenance, that will get me to consider it as a real potential option. If it can open up the top end with a little more resolution, I know my system can benefit from that. If it can also provide a little more low end punch without getting flabby... well then I would likely start to save obsessively until I can make the jump.
I'll also add that I absolutely prefer a sweeter top end. I admittedly listen to a number of poor recordings, and I don't ever want a system to be analytical to the extent that is just exposes all the flaws in a recording and makes some of my favorite albums from my life unenjoyable. After a journey of amps, I may very well land right back at my Mastersound. But I think I do need to start the journey.
What is it that you want the new amplifier to do that your current one doesn't? Are you looking for more nuance, more dynamic range or dynamic contrasts, tonal quality or something else?
I find it helpful to know what you want a new component to do that enhances your musical experience. Without that, we're just like a leaf blown around by the wind.
Bear in mind that a dealer network would necessitate much higher prices! So buying direct from LTA certainly has advantages.
Having said that, I have purchased a high percentage of my components used over the years, so I wouldn't discourage you from taking that route. I would, however, check to make certain that the warranty of whatever you are considering is transferable!
@whipsaw thank you for the input! I have been curious about LTA and I got to hear a few of their pieces at SWAF. I wish they had some dealer network, but they do have a quality trial period.
At the end of the day I think I’m starting to advertise that the best way to go is likely going to be buying used from places like TMR or buying direct with return options. Not the easiest way, and not the way I’d prefer to do business, but it might just be the way it goes now.
@hilde45 great info on some of your amps, especially the LTA. Been very curious about their pieces!
Can you speak a bit more about these amps specifically?
I've been super curious about the Hypex and the Benchmark specifically; I already own and my 'reference' amp is a fully upgraded dual mono Adcom-GFA555 amp.
It's not a bombastic slamming amp, but it seems a lot more detailed and precise than it had been. Compared to my integrated Rega ElexR, which does present as 'powerful/bombastic', I am curious about more efficient amps and their presentation. (Sound stage is mostly lost on my set-up: it's very un-ideal asymmetrical with a huge cabinet in the middle of the speakers).
Solid State:
Adcom 535L
Benchmark AHB2
Hypex-based Class D amp built around Burson OP amp.
There ain't no romance without finance and there ain't no replacement for displacement.
I would create a top notch system around a big tranny amp, like Bryston etc., 700w plus.
You can use a tube pre but a top notch tranny pre will be double or more the cost.
Tranny amps are brutally accurate that's why lot's of folks go for tubes. They are easier to get to sound good, but lack accuracy, with their sweet dreamy sound.
@avanti1960 I think you've predicted the journey that I am on the brink of starting. I really like what I hear in my amp, especially the tone. But I'm craving a deeper understanding of what inherent sound different amps offer. I may just need to save up, buy used, and go down the road of shuffling a few things. I may end up right back where I started, but the curiosity seems to be hitting me more an amps than anything else.
@voltaicqI think I may have overstated the can't afford it element. I can't afford it at the moment, but I probably can afford it in 6-18 months if I focus on saving. I think the real element is I can't afford to change the amp AND make other changes in my system really would be of more benefit.
And the core thing I was trying is that amps constantly capture my curiosity, even though I am happy with my existing amp. I'm not one to collect a lot of equipment. I like to have one system that has all my resources put into it. But I have a feeling I may become the type of person that ends up with 2-3 amps over the years because I am constantly curious about trying new amps more than other piece in the system.
I was constantly curious about amplifiers until I found the right one. They all sounded so different. I heard what I liked in amp “A” but wanted more power. A more powerful model of the same make was not the answer and it sent me down the rabbit hole until success at last.
The idea of setting qualifications up front made it more difficult to find the right one but easier to know when you crossed the finish line.
If you can't afford it but still feel that urge maybe it is time to consider what exactly you are wanting or missing out of your system. Perhaps a component you have can be modified or upgraded, or maybe sell some things you no longer use to fund something that better suits your needs and tastes.
A pet project of mine is the restoration of a Nobles NS-130 amp. I've had two of these in the past (in much better shape). This one is going to get a complete rebuild after I take it completely apart to refinish the chassis.
Of all the EL84-based amps from the 1950s/60s, this one is arguably the best.
This is the best image I could find online in a quick search. The socket on the left is for the 5AR4 rectifier tube. Each channel is housed in its own removable module.
Oops, in my previous post, I meant to say Dyna ST35 reissue instead of EL84 Dyna mkII as my second favorite amp when I attended that audio show many years back. That is a great sounding amp.
Interesting off subject comments….patents and all that history swept under the carpet….selective memory to suit political dogma.
l can only add that China in the 21st Century has been doing the same thing to the World. With your claims to copyright ownerships, the USA was arguably not a great role model for ignoring ‘patents’ in the 20th Century’
Answering the unending ‘sickness’ condition of constant upgradeitus (not a real word but quite apt) from the OP @displayname l can only say if you are still getting too near the ‘ledge’ make sure you land in a ‘’treated’’ padded cell treatment room’’
Oh…..and l do agree with you and another poster on here….. if anyone suffers from the mentioned ‘upgradeitus’ it is advisable to buy second hand, but be forewarned if you do…. think of why the previous owner wanted to sell it.
If you like the tone and are okay with stage, etc, about adding a subwoofer?
i have considered a sub, but for some reason it’s just never struck my curiosity in the same way. I’ve heard subs make a great difference in several systems. But I’ve equally heard them muddy things up for people. I know the set up in critical for good integration, and I’m sure I’ll go down that road eventually. But for right now, it just doesn’t excite me in the same way as so many other things in the system.
@hilde45Thanks for the additional feedback and the side message on the LTA. I plan to message you back but having technical difficulties apparently, but I'll figure it out. Didn't want to leave you hanging!
Oh no, don't start politics in this stream. America was great when all the other countries had thier factories bombed to oblivion. You americans acually profited from WW2. Without paying for any patents for our inventions, like the jet engine, radar, the cavity magnatron, sonar, penicilin, programable computers, rocketry, I could go on. You can keep our gold, and give it to some arsehole aliens, who just pretented to be the 'official aliens'. If you had the chance, you would have voted for Al Capone, or Michael Jackson. Just keep your hands off education.
This entire culture is about buying things we can't afford. In most other countries you have to have the money in your bank or in your hand + plus the money for the parking meter and not penny less - before you walk out with a box from the dealer.
If I can afford it, I don't really want it. It's not logical, but I like to take time to ponder the pro's and cons. I only recently discovered SHARK (buy reading this sites comments). I planned to upgrade my current amp, a Yamaha AS 701, (something I easily afforded), with a Luxman SS. soon. But now, I can skip this upgrade and go straight to a new valve preamp, and big monoblocks,(used). You see I cannot afford either today, but soon maybe 3 months. To me it is like a hunt, to seek out and acquire somethig that I know will probably be replaced within 6 years. I am learning things like, there will allways be a market for a used pair of KRELLS, but who wants a used YAMAHA budget amp?
That's why being a manufacturer and repair shop we get to hear so many pieces of equipment every day. To be perfectly honest, upgrades to parts can make a more significant sonic improvement. Swapping out gear is not the way to go. Also, one amplifier may sound good with a certain preamp but another amplifier may not as good with the same preamp. That's just how it goes.
@atmasphere I LOVE my ST35. Bought it and refurbished it thanks to your suggestions. What a gem. I was powering 87db bookshelves with it yesterday (Acoustic Energy AE500) and it sounded luscious. Just great.
Recently I've been interested in some of the lower power pentodes that are also meant to be easy to drive, like the EL95 and EL84. If amps based on these tubes are designed properly there's not an SET made that can keep up by any metric audiophiles value. They really can work quite well!
One hero in this department is the Dynaco ST35. Its inexpensive, compact, and if properly refurbished, very musical. I recently rebuilt one with new filter caps, new RCA connectors, and set it up to prevent ground loops with a grounded AC power cord. If you have speakers that don't need a lot of power this amp is surprisingly neutral and musical.
I've also had an interest in some of the Electro Voice amps from the mid and late 1950s. These used a Circlotron output similar to what we've been using in our OTLs for the last 47 years.
One thing about your setup to consider is that you might be missing out on soundstage, bass, or control at higher volumes because the amp likely isn't controlling your speakers as much as others might like. In your shoes I might try for a 40 wpc tube amp or higher. Slipperly slope because the price goes way up and so do the changes, not always for the better.
If you like the tone and are okay with stage, etc, about adding a subwoofer? It’s similar to adding an amp because you are. Since your speakers are not super efficient this would allow you to keep the tube sound you like and get a good bit more low end energy and performance.
A sub will make your setup a little more relaxed imo without taking anything away for you mains. I don’t know the impedance curve of your speakers but it might improve the 50-100hz region as well based on how you set it up.
One thing about your setup to consider is that you might be missing out on soundstage, bass, or control at higher volumes because the amp likely isn't controlling your speakers as much as others might like. In your shoes I might try for a 40 wpc tube amp or higher. Slipperly slope because the price goes way up and so do the changes, not always for the better.
I’ve owned dozens of speakers and for my taste you really have to pay for good bass. Typically upwards of 15k or so. YMMV. Work your speaker positioning and some simple treatments too.
@displayname I was very impressed by the LTA – the cleanness and the wide and articulate soundstage was phenomenal. It is a tube amp but not overly warm. If you are curious, reach out to me because I know a standup guy selling one. (It’s not me.)
I thought this comment on Audiogon was accurate (I also own the Pass XA25 and did this same comparison):
"The LTA has a big sound with an expansive soundstage that seems to wrap around you whereas the XA25/EAR combo seems smaller but more nimble by comparison. The LTA’s big sound doesn’t come at the expense of detail. In fact, certain “decorative” sounds like bells, triangles and non-drum percussion seem to stand out more with the LTA. Same with vocals, which are quite forward in the mix and, possibly, not to everyone’s liking (personally I prefer it). The XA25 wins on dynamics. In fact, with the Spatials, for me, this is one of the best things about my system. But the LTA is entirely satisfactory in this department as well. Finally, to my surprise, the LTA has amazing, addictive bass that makes the Pass Labs (which until I heard the LTA, I thought produced more than adequate bass) seem anemic in the lower registers. I like the Pass Labs bass enough that I don’t use my subs. With the LTA I would say the bass I get might actually be too much for some ears. Subs are absolutely not needed."
I’m also a tube guy at heart and I tend to keep tube gear a lot longer than when I have solid-state electronics. I get bored with SS amps/integrateds after 6-8 months and look to try something different; whereas, whenever I’ve had a tube setup (tube separates or a tube integrated), I’ve held onto it for as long as 5 years without making any changes.
In the late 90’s, I attended this Stereophile Single Ended Symposium in Philadelphia and it was the first time I ever heard SET amps and was completely blown away. It literally was a whose who of industry people and I heard SET amps from Audio Note, Berning, Cary, Fi, Caztech and a few others using 845s, 211s, 300Bs and 2a3s on very efficient horn speakers and concluded while they all sounded incredible and was the b3st thing I’ve ever heard, it was the least expensive and lowest powered 2a3 monos from Fi that sounded best to me.
About 7 years later, I attended another stereo show in Central NJ put on by Vacuum Tube Valley magazine. On that day, I heard her many different setups, solid state Class A, AB, SET, PP, Class D, Class D with a tube preamp, and 15 or so different tube amps ranging from 300Bs, 2a3’s, 45s, 10s, 845s, EL84, EL34s, 6L6s, 6B4Gs, 6550s & KT88s. Prior to that day I never heard a Class D amp or single driver speakers. At the end of the day, my 2 favorite setups was an Italian SET amp that was demoed using 45s,10s, 2a3s, 300Bs and 52s on single driver Laemhorn speakers and an EL84 Dyna mkII reissue on single driver Omega speakers. A close 3rd was a custom Dynaco Stereo 70 using 6B4Gs in PP Triode on Rogers LS3/5as.
So, to the original post, maybe just pick up a couple SS amps of excellent performance at a reasonable price with different power ratings that you can swap in and out to keep it fun. You can run the SS amps in the summer and the tube gear in the winter.
Some reasonable priced Giantkillers are:
(200 wpc) B&K EX442 or EX442 Sonata, PS Audio 200C or 200CX, Perreaux 2150, Aragon 4004
It seems to me that in the quest to find the best sounding audio system, many audio enthusiasts may start out with the intent of upgrading their current system one component at a time, and eventually upgrade further components until the system is one that they are happy with. From then on, it seems that they tend to focus on what they perceive to be the weakest link in their system, and then routinely change out that component, whether it's a turntable, CD/DVD player, streaming device, amplification or speakers.
@dogearedaudioI think that’s a reasonable statement, and it’s something I’ve thought about. I don’t feel on the day to day that I’m lacking power, but I have considered several higher power options. The class A power is consistently surprising. Like I said, I’m honestly quite happy with my amp. This is much more of the case of wondering eye than trying to fix a specific problem. There’s a reason it’s one of the longest standing pieces in my system.
Even when I’ve demoed other higher power amps in my room, I still very much appreciate the tone of my Mastersound. That’s also why I have the curiosity around the Class A solid state options. I’ve not felt my power was lacking, so that makes me curious what similar powered SS would bring to the table. And in my original post I even mentioned the ultra high power Rowland options. That’s a direction I hadn’t previously considered, but after hearing their higher end products, I’m curious what the integrated would be like. Honestly the research rabbit hole changes constantly and I tend to refocus to systems that really stood out in my mind. I’ve only heard Rowland twice, and both times the systems really impressed me. I’ve heard Acoustic Research in a number of systems, some that I loved and some that didn’t appeal to me. Pass and Sugden have escaped my ears to this point, which is what has really sparked my curiosity.
@jrareform in my experience you really don't even need a treated room or ultra high end gear. You just need a decent room, decent equipment, and a GOOD setup. I've been in several rooms that offer this (including my own) and the difference between amps is pretty instantly apparent.
I'm not familiar with your speakers, but judging from the specs, I don't think you have enough power. They may play "loud enough" but you're not really hearing what the speakers can do, even at lower listening levels. Also, you've got single-ended amps which won't give you the bandwidth that a push-pull tube or SS amps will. I'd shoot for at least 40 wpc, or if you insist on lower power, get something that has some decent low-end response.
@jasonbourne71the weekly reminder from Jason Bourne for all of you dummies that think amps sound different. Jason have you ever been in a legit treated room with multiple amps with similar distortion curves and tested them? I'd guess not. So please allow those who actually have used this gear talk rather than just regurgitate the ASR line of "it all sounds the same", espousing a single small scientific study from the 70s which has been disproven countless times. I assure you that your class D amp with 120+db SINAD will not come close to my Pass Labs XA30.8 in realism or imaging regardless of how it measures. If you still feel the need to post this on every amp discussion though, do you. It's a free country. Just know that those of us with high end systems are rolling our eyes.
OP, yes I have this disease. When you have a fully treated room with high end gear, the difference between amps is not subtle. I've tested over a dozen amps in this configuration. No amp sounds just like another. There's a reason why Nelson Pass uses measurements AND listening tests to determine these things! Whether everyone can hear these differences is another discussion entirely
@hilde45I'm glad you mentioned the mentioned the LTA amps as well. Those have been on my radar, and I was lucky enough to hear their gear in two different systems at SWAF. The Areo Dac is very interesting, and something I would strongly consider. The amps sounded good, but it's so hard to judge them not only at a show, but also when they are shown with panel speakers only. Nothing wrong with panel speakers, but they don't really give me a sense of how they might pair with my normal box and driver speakers. Anyway around it though, the LTA Z40+ is also on my radar.
That's one of the nice things about tube amps. You can change the tubes out relatively inexpensively and change the amps sound, giving you a new experience each time.
Curious about amps? How could you NOT be? I'm with you!
Why? Because there is no such thing as a speaker on its own. The basic unit is a speaker-amp. Their pairing is about "synergy" which means not just "sufficient power" but "pleasing interaction."
In my room, I have had:
Class A:
Pass XA 25
Pass Aleph
Tube:
Linear Tube Audio ZOTL Ultralinear+
Quicksilver Mono 60 tube amps
Solid State:
Adcom 535L
Benchmark AHB2
Hypex-based Class D amp built around Burson OP amp.
And everything has been tried both with a very neutral SS preamp as well as with a tube preamp.
All these amps sound different. And not just better/worse but different. And I've tried many of them with different speakers.
The point is that the investigation of "synergy" is a key part of what I'm interested in, and trying different amplifier-speaker combos is the heart of it. And if you're settled on your speakers, what more could you owe them, and your system, than to try out the right amps until you find what brings out their potential (for you, in your system)?
I’ve owned SS, hybrid and tube amps over the years and found all can provide quality sound. The best part has been the experience in the exploration of each type! I’m currently running a powerful Simaudio Moon SS amp that is wonderful paired with a tube preamp. Time will tell if I’ll want to go back to tube amps.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
