High volume and 70db should not be used in the same sentence. Enjoy the music
Does loudness play a part in your appreciation?
I wish it weren’t so but listening at high volume (around 70 decibels) tends to make me get more involved in the music.
How about you?
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Very funny. High volume is 90+db. I remember when in my early twenties hanging out at a high end audio store with the two salesmen while cranking their demo system. We chuckling and slapping each other on the back when we were able to see the spl meter hit 120db with their Klipschorns. That’s loud. Sounded terrible. The noise floor was probably 95db. More than once, at that age, young and stupid. The mark of a good system was it could crank over 100db. Usually not sounding good at all, because of the incredibly high noise floor and tremendous distortion. These days 65 to 75db is my normal volume. Although once in a great while it is fun to crank it to 85db on some old punchy rock and roll. Fortunately my system sound great at either level. Some youngsters came over to listen to my system and had it cranked over 95... sounded great... as I was quickly vacating the room. |
Around 70/75db seems to be a sweet spot. Appropriatley loud for most music. The lower it is the less resolution. Turning down the volume knob is like stepping down on the brake pedal. Less of everything. Low level listening is ok for background low resolution music. At parties there are moments, later in the evening after a few shots, that a few songs get played 'hard' at loud volume. I admit I love the tightness of the bass and over all sound is impressive but only for a minute or two for demonstration. It is fun!
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I used to feel the need to play my music loud. But when I bought my new speakers one of the criteria I set was low volume listening. I find that I have really grown used to a much lower volume and less fatigue than before. I bought Sonus Faber Olympica Novas and find they deliver a full spectrum top to bottom. However there are certain cuts, e.g. Stranglehold by Nugent that just require higher volume although the quality remains the same. |
I listen mostly at 70-80dbs at my listening position and every now and then I’ll crank it up to 90db peaks, but that’s rare. Went and saw a local Pink Floyd cover band a few weeks ago. Really excellent show with a crazy amount of special effects and props. The ear plugs only came out for the intermission and then they went right back in. I sure don’t remember my ears hurting like this in my teens and twenties. |
@rvpiano , I don’t think 70db is “loud”. I designate that as “enjoyable”. I listen to anywhere between 65db to 75db, like you rightly said, to “make me get more involved in the music”. |
For the most part,I enjoy the music I'm listening to regardless of volume level.HOWEVER,there are many times when a song triggers associated memories..Most all the time,those songs are of the variety that are high energy & I'll turn that volume knob clockwise which does seem to add to the enjoyment factor... |
It's a great question actually. I've wondered about this myself some lately. A friend and I were comparing listening sessions recently and I realized we like to listen at different volume levels. And, thoughts around how each of our systems will sound different if he's listening at 80db and I'm listening at 70db most of the time. My system's character changes overall when comparing 65,70,75,80-85db listening levels. I don't care for how my current system sounds when the volume level is turned up really loud. My level of interest and engagement drops notably. |
With my Tube Raven Audio Reflection and having tinnitus and playing at 65 db I hear the ringing and the music and yet if I really really pay attention you still hear detail that is different than say 75db which is loudest I play...At 75db OMG the sound god comes alive and at times No Ringing and just music and the tubes just dissect the music into 3D sound stage and I am fully engaged into it until a moment I think about my ringing tinnitus and then I hear both ..But during that time of silent ringing is a moment of listening to music that makes me feeling relaxed.. |
Higher volumes can make things more involving, yes. Depending on the components in the system (I switch things around), they need more ooomph to get momentum, come into balance. Regarding the idea that 70 db is loud, here’s a chart: Environmental Noise 0dB Weakest sound heard 30dB Whisper Quiet Library at 6’ 60-65dB Normal conversation at 3’ 80dB Telephone dial tone 85dB City Traffic (inside 1 car) Sound Levels of Music 60 -70dB Normal piano practice 70dB Fortissimo Singer, 3’ 75 - 85dB Chamber music, small auditorium 84 - 103dB Piano Fortissimo 82 - 92dB Violin 85 -111dB Cello 95-112dB Oboe 92 -103dB Flute 90 -106dB Piccolo 85 - 114dB Clarinet 90 - 106dB French horn 85 - 114dB Trombone 106dB Tympani & bass drum 94dB Walkman on 5/10 120 - 137dB Symphonic music peak 120dB Amplifier, rock, 4-6’ 150dB Rock music peak https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/ |
It is important for me to be able to come close to live levels in my listening room although I don't often do it or really listen at those levels. My room is 30ft. x 40ft x 25ft. Playing something like Bonerama, Live in New York I've measured in excess of 130dB, eighteen feet in front of my speakers. Having a system that can do that makes it much more enjoyable at more reasonable listening levels. And yes, I wear my Walkers when testing at these levels for any length of time. |
I think @hilde45’s post is the most enlightening in this thread. All this discussion of levels has been divorced from the reality of live music, which, IMO, is what we all should strive to emulate. And the idea of listening to anything but the softest passages at 75dB, whether A or C weighted, just can’t emulate live. |
It absolutely 100% does. I want to be blown away at home like what happens at a well produced live event. Not all the time, but for serious listening yes. 90 db is about my practical personal threshold for peaks. That or lower should be considered the practical limit in general to avoid damage to the ears. We don’t want that to happen!
Live events can easily exceed that limit. Depends on venue and where you sit. I tend to avoid the closest 1/3 seats at most live performances. Less risk of damage and a better “sweet spot”. |
That’s as loud as I try to listen now to save my old guy ears. I do like it loud like a lot of the concerts I’ve attended over the years. To me The Who doesn’t sound as good at quiet listening levels. Live at Leeds is played at 60-70 dBA now. Don’t want to think about how loud I used to listen to it. I also wear earplugs now at concerts. |
I normally listen at a 70db average with percussive or fff to ffff passages reaching 80 to 90db. I find this level enjoyable and not triggering sever adverse reactions from my wife and family members (no dedicated listening room, formal living room serves as listening room). However, they may still react to louder peaks. This is below mid orchestra/front first tier seating where the average sound level is 70 to 90db with peaks of over 100db (see references and my own iPhone measurements that are not posted, as inaccurate as they are). When in the mood for reproducing the concert experience, I will raise the average to a 90db level. Rock concerts average 100db and 120db peaks. I do not find that enjoyablevat a concert or in my home. See some peer reviewed literature: https://iris.who.int/bitstream/handle/10665/352277/9789240043114-eng.pdf?sequence=1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7050229/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2004/01/11/the-decibel-debate-sound-and-the-symphony/
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@komono Peter Walker, the brains behind Quad amplifiers and electrostatic speakers, said that the volume knob should be treated like the focus control on a camera. Use it to bring the music into focus, which I interpret to mean place yourself at the volume level intended by the recording engineer, where the balance of instruments best approaches reality. His byline was "the closest approach to the original sound" and he targeted classical music, which has a much bigger dynamic range than most other genres. He recognised that it was practically impossible to reproduce typical front-row sound levels, and instead described reproduced music as listening through an open window into a concert hall. I am pretty sure most people instinctively keep turning the volume up until distortion raises its ugly head, at which point the volume is still way below the peak levels of un-amplified orchestral instruments. I know that applies to me and I probably play far too loud to not be damaging my hearing. Completely agree with your comments on how meaningless db 'measurements' can be without further details. |
Richard, distortion is likely an issue for lots of people, especially those who use traditional dynamic speakers. That’s one reason I’ve mostly been attracted to planars, either Magnepans or, for the least 15 years, Quad 63s. I would think horns would also exhibit low distortion, but my experience with them is very limited. In any event, it seems possible that some of the folks who are listening at what seem to be low levels do so because it sounds better to them due to increased distortion at higher levels. Just a hypothesis. |
I have used Quad electrostatics for about 40 years, first the 63s then the bigger 2905s. They have a built-in volume limit, in that at signal voltages over about 40-Volts they deliberately compress the signal, ultimately presenting as a short-circuit at about 57-Volts. I have found that newer recordings on SACD and Blu-ray tend to have ever higher peak outputs, as measured by the point at which my Krell power amp trips because the Quads have clamped! Almost by accident, I recently bought a pair of KEF Reference 1 speakers which also try to emulate a point source of sound. They can play far louder than the Quads! My own hypothesis is that many people are looking for a ’smooth’ or ’warm’ sound so are attracted to the pleasant harmonic distortions of some valve equipment and seek an ’analogue’ resonant sound from digital. I am looking for a realistic experience judged against live (non-amplified) music. Much of the orchestral music I listen to really is discordant and edgy, as in his time was Beethoven. (There is apparently no evidence his deafness was caused by playing too loud) |
Well, if they were looking at the chart I posted, they would see that 70 db is well below average for what instruments actually produce. For whatever reason, your level of listening is pretty well below the actual live db levels of classical instruments. To remind folks:
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I took the approach that volume should be carefully adjusted for classical music to match the live experience... and that perhaps that was also the correct volume for other music. I had season tickets to the symphony for a decade, 7th row center. So several times I would go to the symphony and listen specific for the cues and pieces of music that were good for calibration. Something that started very quietly out of the silence and then noting the crescendos. I found this useful for classical music. Of course the loudness varies from recording to recording, so there is not set place on the volume control. But I found this volume was often louder than I wanted listen day to day on other music. Not that it sounded bad, just louder than I wanted. |
Mahler's second symphony (Resurrection) was played in the first concert after $100-million was spent fixing the acoustics of the Sydney Opera House. Not my money, but well spent! This symphony would surely have some of the greatest dynamic and emotional ranges in the repertoire, from pin-drop quiet to cacophony. The tam tams (gongs) at the end should be played so hard, they rarely get back to vertical. Gilbert Kaplan was head of a chemical company but got himself taught how to conduct, just to play this symphony. He has conducted it around the world and I have a performance on CD. Not quite as good as Sir Simon Rattle, but Sir Simon is a percussionist ...
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Am I missing something? Audio rigs produce microcosms of live music. There's no alternative, unless your living room is the size of the venue. Or consider how loud a trumpet is when played by a real person. Do you want that in your living room? I didn't think so. Given that these are microcosms, it's just up to all the variables involved and there is no right way to listen. |
Absolutely right. You can’t reproduce a symphony orchestra In your living room. Even if you match the decibel reading level it will not sound the same. |
0 -70dB Normal piano practice 70dB Fortissimo Singer, 3’ 75 - 85dB Chamber music, small auditorium 84 - 103dB Piano Fortissimo 82 - 92dB Violin 85 -111dB Cello 95-112dB Oboe 92 -103dB Flute 90 -106dB Piccolo 85 - 114dB Clarinet 90 - 106dB French horn 85 - 114dB Trombone 106dB Tympani & bass drum 94dB Walkman on 5/10 120 - 137dB Symphonic music peak 150dB Rock music peak
This is just wrong in that it considers neither distance nor directionality. The sound emitted from a woodwind expands in a whole different set of directions than a brass instrument where the sound comes out the bell or strings where the body is the resonating cavity. Volume at a mic is affected accordingly. Are we really to believe that an 8’ Steinway at fortissimo would be drown out by a cello or an oboe? |
When you say 70dB where are you taking that measurement? At the (speaker) source, X feet away from the source? At your listening position, if so are you seated or standing and how far above / below your ears are the speaker drivers? Also, since you specified classical music - is 70db an 'average' reading throughout a piece, or a crescendo or lull reading..? For myself, I generally find listening at around 80dB to be the 'sweet spot' in my particular listening environment (18 X 40 ft room, approx. 12 feet from the speakers, most musical genres) and this equates to about 1 watt per channel of output from my system. I have noted that, specifically when listening to classical music, I find it more sonically pleasing to lower the volume slightly - as I feel like the changes between soft passages and louder parts seem more abrupt and less subtle to my ears, than for example jazz or even moderate rock music...
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I’m about 8 feet from the speakers. I’m seated at this distance. The room is 23’ by 25’. Drivers are arranged up and down the front of the speakers. Yes, classical music has the widest dynamic range. |
A single violin player, a sax player and some percussion playing in a 25 by 30 room, which pretty much happens every weekend or so in my house will easily be the loudest thing guys on this thread might hear, it appears... if they are listening @70db and calling it loud. I have been in several studios with artists and mastering techs at the instant some final listening tests happened before what is deemed as a final product...If you all are thinking that your 70db levels are the artists’ intent, you are flat out wrong again. The studios get relatively loud even for me. i don’t invite ’audiophiles" over or do any listening with them anymore for the same reason/one reason.... It is a..lets just leave it there...and no, the collective set of all musicians in the world didn’t all go deaf by now. They have much better hearing than the regular masses. I am in my 50s and have the same hearing i had in ny 20s, last i checked. This thread appears to be completely detached from the world of real music or musicians.
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