Do I Need a Dedicated Streamer?

@jacobsdad2000 

 Mr. "Let them eat cake."

 

 

Node uses BLuOS (probably the best) 

I'd agree that BluOS provides a very good UI, but IMO Roon is even better. For BluOS, you need a BlueSound device. You can install Roon Core on your Mac Mini then control it from your iPhone or laptop.  One thing I do really like about BluOS is its programmable IR remote capabilities. 

I'm a H590 owner and will get right to my points.

You have the bones for an awesome system but have to get a decent streamer.  Right now you're driving a Shelby Mustang in first gear only (there are 5 more upshifts).  To realize the full potential of the KEFs I would look for a streamer $2k and up.

 

I would forget USB out of a mac mini into the Hegel, the jitter will compromise what the rest of the system can do.

 

Hardwiring (no wifi) will be superior to keep the noise down.  I even went to the length to remove two network switches that were splitting signals and when to a home run from the router directly to my streamer and got a noticeable improvement which was a very inexpensive upgrade.  Many of the dedicated high end streamers don't even have a wifi option and they do it for a reason.

 

I personally run Isoacoustic feet on my speakers and subs.  I have a floating hardwood floor and the aftermarket feet are worth the investment esp. for the subs.  If you have hard floors give them a try.  Not sure what the result would be  over carpeted flooring.  Maybe another user could advise us?

 

Bottom line is you have a fantastic system and a $2K+ investment in a really good streamer IMO will bump up your SQ by 20% or maybe more.  Airplay is your weak link.

 

If you want to try the shallow end of the pool--first try Tidal connect with a free trial.  Tidal connect is HQ audio, similar but different to the high rez Apple music option.  Connect your H590 directly to your network via the Lan port and once your Hegel is on your personal network you can bypass airplay and play Tidal connect directly from your network.  This will be a OMG moment where the soundstage will get wider, deeper and the bass will be MUCH cleaner.  Good luck and cheers.

BTW, thank you yage for the links. Very helpful.

 

I am using a PC for streaming, mostly due to budget constraints. The PC is hooked to the router/modem via ethernet cable. The PC sends the stream, via USB, to the internal DAC of the AMP (Cambridge Audio CXA 81). I have also installed a jitter filter between PC and AMP, which helped considerably. I am using an Audioquest Forrest USB cable and plan to purchase an upgraded LAN cable. 

I know this is not optimal but it's still better than streaming from my iPhone via Bluetooth, even though my amp does a better than average job. The PC can also stream FLAC files, via Amazon HD, My Bluetooth is limited to 24/48, which is still CD quality plus.

@danby99.  You've got great gear.  Streaming from you computer is your weakest source.  You have invested $$ into your system, just spend some more to get the best results.  

@danb99 

Re: Mac Mini, it depends on what you need.

 

First off, keep in mind that you have a streamer built into your amp. There's no need to buy another box to get streaming capability. If you need more info on how to best use it, I suggest contacting Hegel to get their advice.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

If you only want to stream from Apple Music, you're probably better off just using AirPlay and your iPhone. Adding a Mac Mini would only complicate matters in terms of remote control. Also note that the Music app on macOS doesn't perform automatic sample rate switching. Instead, it will resample the audio data to whatever is set in the Audio MIDI system app.

 

If you have music files stored on the Mac Mini that you want to playback on the Hegel, I suggest installing a free program called Kodi. This will turn the Mac into a UPnP server with the Hegel set as the client (or 'renderer' in UPnP speak). You can control playback using the Kodi web interface or from your phone using a remote control app called Yatse. There's no need to directly connect the Mac to the amp using USB - it will stream the audio data over your local network. See the links below for more information.

 

If you'd like to try another streaming service such as Qobuz or TIDAL, I suggest using the mConnect HD Player app on your iPhone. Tap on 'Play to' in the top left corner and select your Hegel from the list that appears. Then tap on the music service and supply your username and password.

 

Kodi homepage - link

Kodi - how to add music to the Kodi library - link

Kodi - how to set up UPnP - link

Kodi - how to set up remote control - link

Here's a link to a short tutorial on UPnP if you need more info - link.

mConnect Player HD - link

o_holter

... I’d like to invest in a streamer if I was sure it actually performed better than my laptop ...

Any good audio dealer would be happy to offer you a demo that would include a nice streamer and your laptop. Nothing equals hearing it for yourself.

I do get the idea that better-built DACs offer better sound. But streamers? As long as the input is right, no stuttering, not much noise, etc? I'd like to invest in a streamer if I was sure it actually performed better than my laptop. And a clear description of how I would relieably hear the difference. If not, I will probably use my money on a better DAC, instead.

Wow, hope this guy is not a doctor. Oh and if it is anything that he doesn’t own then it’s junk. 

pennfootball71

169 posts

12-19-2023 at 07:27am 

If it came with the amp it’s worth nothing because it was free! They are using junk little tiny boards and OP amps!

So yes you need a better DAC and better streamer!

plan on a budget if 5-10k each and another 2k for each for proper cables! 

@2psyop said it and explained it the best.  Funny, some commentary around using a computer designed and solely dedicated for streaming, that’s a dedicated streamer.  One of the big benefits rolling with a dedicated streamer vs building a computer for streaming is the interface / app that some companies have developed.  Node uses BLuOS (probably the best) and main recommended brands in this thread all have well thought out, built out and regularly upgraded apps, really important.  Best way for you to test out the different advice, find a dealer with a return policy, a/b streamer vs your current set up.  Let your ears decide.  I had a bias thinking a PC would do a better job vs streamer, when I compared the 2, let me ears decide, well, I’ve had a dedicated streamer ever since.  Good Luck. 

If it came with the amp it’s worth nothing because it was free! They are using junk little tiny boards and OP amps!

So yes you need a better DAC and better streamer!

plan on a budget if 5-10k each and another 2k for each for proper cables! 

“Do I Need a Dedicated Streamer?”

 

does a bear go to the bathroom in the woods?

@danb99 

Another vote for the blusound N130 with an external LPS. Bypass the nodes internal DAC.  This combination is quite good and the BluOS app Is really good too. Good luck!

@danb99 

I'll leave the dedicated streamer thing alone since it has been discussed ad nauseum. But I think your consideration of Iso gaya I feet is one to pursue. I just installed them under my PBN MONTANA XPS speakers and the result was nothing less than stunning. Mainly in the very low frequencies, they have tightened the bass considerably getting rid of any kind of rumble anywhere in the room, even in the back corners, while losing none of the punch. Also the presentation has overall become more precise and a tat brighter. A very significant upgrade for under 1k.

I suppose that I could wire my mac mini using a usb cable to my Hegel and get streamer level quality without buying a dedicated device?

Try it. What do you have to lose if you already have the Mini? I've used this setup (with different amps/DACs) and it works fine.  You can host Roon Core on a Mini (or other full-function computer) as well as Audirvana or (of course) Apple Music.  Turn off Time Machine (or schedule it to run at night) and other process that might interrupt the music stream.

In my opinion, your choice of streaming platform may be best dictated by the services you want it to support and how you want to control it. With a full-function computer (like the Mini) you have many options.  After you've experimented with a few, down the road you might want to add a dedicated streamer.  If by then you've decided (for example) you like Roon, you can focus on Roon-Ready streaming devices.  In that case, one of the Rendu products would be an option;  Aurender (at this time) would not be.  

 

Phones r good as remote controls for dedicated streamers. 

Logic dictates that your source be at a commensurate level with your amp and speakers otherwise it is the weakest link in the chain and will not maximize the amp and speaker’s sonic capabilities.

Just set aside all the comments here and think through that for a bit for yourself... you spent big money on your rig so far for a reason, you wanted the best sound you could afford, so don’t sell your rig short.

Here are 3 excellent streamer choices at ascending price points that have internal DACs and USB outputs so you can utilize your amp’s internal DAC as well:

Eversolo DMP-A8

Lumin T3

Aurender A15

Gotta love those people who argue over Ethernet cables, the dismiss WiFi that removes them completely from the equation. Or that are concerned about jitter on their Ethernet connections. They're still very confused about TCP/IP. FWIW, buffers eliminate jitter. If jitter is so bad that the buffers overflow, then there's a serious ssue with the network that would show up in the router management as dropped frames. 

Unless you are serious about cobbling a streamer from a Raspberry Pi, and doing the associated bit-twiddling, just get a BlueSound Node. They're available for under $500 now, and a big step up from your current setup, and not that far behind the $3k to $5k offerings. Next get off of Apple, whether you move to Qobuz, Tidal, or Amazon UHD. You'll be very pleased. 

I found that moving from my laptop to an Aurender streamer was revelatory in the positive improvement in sound. It wasn’t close. Hardwire the server with Ethernet.

 getting good results with the Bluesound Node in my second system, again with a hardwired Ethernet connection.

Finally, try hirez Quboz- I never listen to my records anymore as it is better (on my system).

Streamers make a difference in most systems. See if that’s true in yours. Purchase a streamer from amazon. Return it if it doesn’t help. If it does, consider if you’ve bought the correct streamer.

"My experience has been strictly with the SPDIF interface, in which case streamer quality and jitter are very apparent."

Right. As I learned here, if the streamer has better clock than the DAC, connect SPDIF. If the reverse, use USB.  

we are streaming experts and have sold and tested most of the major brands

we started with Aurlic then Lumin the Aurender then Innous

Our first hookups were both a laptop and desktop usb out to our dacs]

the dedicated devices all sounded better and the servers especially the Innous produced the most musical results..

Long story short we discovered the 432EVO music servers from Belgium and started Importing them and they were even better and offered a modular upgradable platform our clients loved.

 

2023 Editors' Choice: Best Music Servers Under $10,000 - The Absolute Sound

from the review:

A ho-hum laptop with file-management software installed isn’t going to get you to the point to which digital playback has advanced in 2022. There are a host of decisions to be made to optimize the process of turning stored or streamed data into music and the 432 EVO servers present these choices in a way that helps assure the best possible results. In short order, even the most obsessive enthusiast will stop tweaking filter settings and buffer size and just…listen. Which is always the best choice an audiophile can make. 

Dave and Troy

audio intellect NJ

US Importers 432EVO music servers

Short version

Hard wired streamer.

Lose AirPlay 2 use and app the runs a streamer.

Read @audioman58 & @audphile1 and others offering the same advice above. Loved the soup analogy!

Poke around these fora and there’s great info to be gleaned.

 

 

 

Forsure if streamingQuality a good LPS power supply to the router 

not$10 junk noisy wall wart routers come with , also a Quality Ethernet hub $600 minimum on up jays audio makes a respectable one with over controlledclock 

LPS ,and regulated power supplies , forsure quality Ethernet cables  and buy a quality dac ,the Under $2k Denafrips pontus 2 12th is much better ,sounding 

you also need quality cables minimum at least $500to over$1k each including usb cable and power cords ,my friend owns a 590 Hegel and that’s the dac he bought 

I totally agree and a quality streamera must for best sound .

hegelsNew 600iheardis muchbetter acrossthe board ,Thst has its own LPS power supply ,better dac ,as well as amp preamp section, youcan get away with a streamer with that but the LPS for router , good cables and power cords and 

quality Ethernet hub still apply , No short cuts being an Audiophile if you want the best quality sound .

@danb99 ditch airplay it’s not great

as to streamers - cheap ones will most likely not be an improvement. The expensive ones will be a waste of money if you continue to use Hegel’s inbuilt DAC as it will be a bottleneck.
If you’re not looking to spend a lot, try Roon for 30 days free (H590 is roon ready) with either Tidal or Qobuz or better yet both so you can determine what you like best. It’s completely free for the trial period. You can choose to buy a separate streamer later and 1) you will have a good baseline and 2) you will be able to compare.

P.S. Don’t use computer as a streamer via USB. It’s not optimized to serve as a network transport and you will not realize the potential of your gear. 

For a while I had been streaming Spotify from laptop to Venus2 DAC, then, recently decided to see if dedicated streamer would make substantial difference. I went with Wiim Pro going through the same path and improvement in every aspect is very noticeable, mostly stage much enlarged in all dimensions. If I proceed on a path of going up the ladder of streamers is to be seen, since mostly listening to CDs and LPs. Streaming for finding new music.

This is my experience.

@jsalerno

 

+1

You can use a WiFi extender plugged in next to your system. Bandwidth requirements are minuscule and a good or outstanding streamer will remove noise and supply superb sound quality. I recommend Aurender.

 

I have owned PCs, MACs, cheap streamers at levels from $3K to $23K.

Next step would be to give Roon a try and go from there. Cambridge mxn10 is a very good and high value Roon ready streamer if needed. 

Never go wifi over a wired connection. 
Also, have you looked at the specs of AirPlay 2? You are limited to 16/44 which is terrible. Wired there is no audio limits.

I would use airplay 2 for background music only, thru a HomePod. Any better playback system, get off your iPhone, use your personal computer, get Roon or audirvana. 
BTW: the dac in the Hegel is not that good. Their standalone dac is far superior. I used an external dac when I had my hegel

Streamers will improve SQ significantly by reducing digital noise and improving detail, dynamics, imaging, staging, and timbre.  Go with one of the three respected brands - Aurender, Lumin, or Innous - with a model in your price range.  Each brand has its own SQ signature, so audition.  I think you will be surprised in the improvement.  

100% yes but starting with your router buy a quality LPS power supply 

Linear Tube Audio makes a great one ,and good quality Ethernet cables  ,Innuos Pulsar excellent SSHD and streamer . See Anthony at Perrotta Consultants. 
very competitive pricing and great service ,and decent power cords  also.

@danb99 

You have a great system!  I have the H390 and the same speakers.😀

As far as a separate streamer, I bought a Bluestone Node N130, thinking it would be a “Starter” streamer and I would get a better one latter and that was over a year ago! I must say that I did buy a Linear power supply for it and it made a very noticeable improvement. The Node N130’s have been on sale everywhere for $449.

All The Best.

Yes but by all means suit yourself.

A Raspberry Pi will beat an iPhone but if you don’t believe that, it will never happen. As of now your music will play only when you’re in the network.

 

Good streamers are just as important as other equipment. Get a good streamer like an Aurender.

I have a Lumin U2 and I just moved it into my main system. I am currently looking to get a Streamer/DAC combo instead to reduce the number of boxed separates in my office environment.

I can say that the Lumin U2 was a great value add to my system vs streaming directly from the PC.

I agree with @2psyop,

and will add that as you go up the ladder, the better your system will sound.

Unfortunately, that means spending more and more... 

A budget Bluesound Node will probably sound better than what you have and you'll be able to connect to lots of streaming music easily.

Bob

I look at it this way. I could buy a can of Campbell’s Tomato soup and take it home, place it on my stovetop and cook it in the can. Why would I need a pot? Well the answer is "no" you do not. But the can the soup is packaged and transported in is not engineered or designed for cooking the soup, it is designed for packaging and transport. The pot is engineered for cooking, and as such, does a better job.

Audio streamers are designed for transporting audio. Your computer is designed for many things, multi purpose. But it was not designed for streaming audio. Audio streamers do a better job because that is what they were designed to do. It’s simple really....

Do you need a streamer? In the strictest sense.. NO. None of us really needs audio gear. Do you want a streamer for better sound? Only you can answer that question.

 

Thanks for all of the replies thus far. Based on some of the responses, I suppose that I could wire my mac mini using a usb cable to my Hegel and get streamer level quality without buying a dedicated device?

 

I assume if that makes a noticeable difference, that I would need a very high quality DAC and Streamer to one-up things from that point forward. 
 

 

yage

... So given the lack of reliable subjective evidence, the only evidence we can use is objective measurement ...

That's just your opinion. I'm not sure I agree with your premise and I certainly don't agree with your conclusion. So you might want to avoid the use of the word "we."

@yage  So given the lack of reliable subjective evidence, the only evidence we can use is objective measurements. I haven’t come across any data that conclusively shows that a modern bit-perfect source (e.g. streamer) makes an audible difference in terms of distortion, noise, frequency response or jitter with respect to the USB interface - link.

Possibly true in the case of the USB interface, as the DAC will handle the clocking and not the streamer. My experience has been strictly with the SPDIF interface, in which case streamer quality and jitter are very apparent.

 

@o_holter

Why do people insist that streamers make a change?

My guess is that virtually all of these anecdotes come from sighted listening tests which are prone to psychological biases. I don’t doubt that these listeners perceive a difference, it’s just that the outcomes or their tests aren’t very reliable.

 

So given the lack of reliable subjective evidence, the only evidence we can use is objective measurements. I haven’t come across any data that conclusively shows that a modern bit-perfect source (e.g. streamer) makes an audible difference in terms of distortion, noise, frequency response or jitter with respect to the USB interface - link.

 

In any case, you can test this yourself by having a friend or significant other switch out something in your playback chain without you knowing. Then see how many times you’ve detected a change. If you get it right 9 out of 10 times, it’s most likely making an audible difference.

I've had a few Streamers over the last couple years and as much as everyone say's they make a huge difference that is not what I have found. here is what I've tried: Dedicated PC optimized for streaming music, Blue sound node first gen,  Roon nucleus, Aurender A10, Chord Streamer ( 2go-2yu current). if I was honest the best sound was the dedicated PC optimized for streaming only.  the rest were just slight and I mean very slight differences to the presentation/noise floor but none really any better over all. really IMO the DAC is a better place to spend the money specially if it has good isolation of the input signal ie USB galvanic isolation.  

That said your using apple air play and that's not optimum so find a streamer you like the software for, that seems to be the overall deciding factor with streamer love-hate.  other than fancy case's and nice looking hi end stuff they really do not perform leaps and bounds above cheaper options in my experience.  

@o_holter  Yes - but maybe there are reasons, nevertheless? Why do people insist that streamers make a change? What are the reliable, objective sound improvements with a better streamer?

I have been through a couple streamer upgrades, each one was an improvement. I still have a ways to go. The objective answer is: jitter and electrical noise. Jitter smears the image, affecting the sound quality and the soundstage. 

I use SPDIF, and have also found there is a significant difference in these cables. I am not sure why that is, but it is the case.

 

 

"if the data gets to the DAC without any errors, then there's no logical reason for one transmission mode to be better than another."

Yes - but maybe there are reasons, nevertheless? Why do people insist that streamers make a change? What are the reliable, objective sound improvements with a better streamer?

Nice system. Streamers matter, a lot. Given the investment you have made, I would do some research and get something at the same level. It seems that Aurender and Innuos are the top choices around here. I would avoid getting one with a DAC built in, use the Hegel for now, though you may want to get a separate down the road. I am pretty sure your sound will improve massively with a real streamer. 

@o_holter

Most people like the convenience of using their phone or tablet as a remote control for a streamer. The good news is that you most likely can already do this with the hardware / software that you currently have.

 

If you’re running Windows on the ThinkPad, you can enable the built-in UPnP media server and control playback using the apps I mentioned above. All you need to do is type "media streaming options" in the search box and enable it in the Control Panel. I think your music files need to be stored in the Music folder for it to work automagically.

 

Re: networking - whether you're using Wi-Fi or wired Ethernet, if the data gets to the DAC without any errors, then there's no logical reason for one transmission mode to be better than another.

First, get off compressed air play. 

Second, get a dedicated streamer.  a $200 streamerw will greatly outperform a computer.

Go wired from the router to the streamer to the DAC.

@yage - "There's no advantage to using a wired Ethernet connection vs Wi-Fi. As long as you're not hearing dropouts or glitches during playback then your network is performing fine."

Hmm - well yes - but there are different opinions. Some say that the streamer means a lot. And I have not seen anyone who had the choice between wired ethernet vs wireless who says it sounds better with wireless so I'll use that.

AirPlay 2 is limited to 44.1 kHz sampling rate. If you're trying to playback a higher resolution stream, it will be resampled to match.

 

However, the Hegel supports another protocol that will perform high-res playback - UPnP / DLNA. You need to use an app that supports this feature. On iOS, I use mConnect Player HD. On my Android phone, I use BubbleUPnP. Unfortunately, neither supports Apple Music so if you're planning on sticking with that service, it's best to use your iPhone and AirPlay.

 

There's no advantage to using a wired Ethernet connection vs Wi-Fi. As long as you're not hearing dropouts or glitches during playback then your network is performing fine. I have a Mac Mini on a mesh node that functions as a streamer / file server for a second system without any issues. I also pull the music files over the wireless backhaul to a Raspberry Pi 4 running moOde for the main basement system and it works perfectly.

 

Streamers, whether they're standalone or built into an amp, are just tiny computers - usually running some form of Linux. If you don't hear any obvious problems, then it's functioning as intended.