New streamer needed

I think you might have to list a few things to get some recommendations.  Are you looking for:

- a streamer only

- streamer / DAC or streamer DAC/amp combo

- is Roon important

- this for a main system

- headphone option important

- WiFi or wired

- budget 

@davidtru  +1

to add to his questions, can the DAC stage of the current CD player be used by the streamer(digital ins)), since the OP likes the sound?

- I am looking for a streamer only, as I have a separate Merason Frerot DAC, preamp and power amp

- Roon is not important, Volumio maybe yes

- It's for my main system

- Headphone option not important

- Wifi

- (Needed) budget is part of my question, but preferably <2500. Can be used too

- The Accuphase can be used as a DAC by the streamer, but sounds better with the Merason

I recommend a used Aurrender N100. But any Aurender you can afford. I own two.

If you do not have the upgraded power supply for your DAC, I would also recommend that.

I have heard the N100 against streamers of a lot greater value and besting them. Very natural sounding and detailed. It is very well built and the Conductor app is very well liked and funtional. 

i would avoid the Roon. Unnecessary cost and I don’t think it will be around for the long term.

Also, do not get one with an internal WiFi. They tend to perform very poorly and be unreliable. Just buy a cheap wall wart WiFi extender and plug in next to your system, plug a short Ethernet cable into that.

@stievus if you can stretch it, there are few used Aurender N10 streamers on US Audiomart. 
Another option is Lumin U1 (not the mini). But the UI(user interface) of the Aurender app is significantly more user friendly. 

Thanks for your recommendations, I will look into these. I have the Merason power supply. Perhaps difficult to comment on, but now I am considering selling the Accuphase and replacing it by a streamer like the N100. Will the sound quality be on par with the/a CD transport?

I’m not sure about N100. Not familiar with Accuphase or Merason either.
It took Aurender N200 in my system to level the playing field. 

Unfortunately the N10 is beyond my budget. I am in Europe. Used the only N100s still available here are the H versions with the USB output.

I would try the N100 then if the price is right.

I be the odd man out and suggest taking a look at the Bryston BDP-3.  One over on USAudiomart for $2k

Thanks, but I am not in the US...

An Auralic Aries G1 or G1.1 would fit the bill nicely and should be in your price range used.

Buy a separate dac ,streamer Innous pulsar very good streamer 

and best dac under $10k under $7k ar close T+A A200 dac. That being said you need a good LPS on your router ,decent Ethernet switch Lhy sw8

andfor sure quality cables and power cords .

ugh.  There are so many threads on this exact topic, just in the last month.  You should do a search on the topic.  

But, in a nutshell, there are two separate camps on this topic lurking here on this forum.  One argues that spending a significant amount of $ on a streamer can be a waste of your precious resources, because the science, measurements and their experience tells them that beyond a basic level, there’s no difference in sound.  The other camp argues that based on their experience, there are clear differences, and therefore recommend spending upwards of $10k in some situations in order to optimize one’s system. I'm squarely in the first camp. So here goes:

The only distinctions across streamers  has to do with levels of jitter and other sources of noise.  These are easily measurable.  If your DAC is good at rejecting noise, you can assemble your own streamer for as little as $150 and it will sound great (and which I’ve done as an experiment myself).  However, if you want something less kludgy than a Raspberry Pi, and you want a streamer that measures   - and in some situations may sound - even better than a Pi (and measures and sounds comparable to some of the extremely high $ streamers out there), then there are a bunch of well regarded products that cost between $400 and $1k.  They include the iFi Zen, the Volumio Rivo, Holo Red, Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra, the Primare Np5, and probably a bunch I’m forgetting.  I have both an iFi and a Pro-Ject.  

Btw, I’m a Roon fan, and also use Qobuz, which integrates seamlessly with Roon.  Happy to share more if you’re interested.  Good luck.

oh, btw, totally disagree with @ghdprentice regarding the long-term prospects of Roon (keeping in mind what I’ve already said, which is that I’m a fan).  Roon very powerfully integrates your cd collection, burned on a NAS and/or residing on a dedicated server, with whatever your streaming service is.  But the really brilliant differentiator for Roon is their software works with almost everybody else’s hardware.  This is particularly useful if you have multiple systems - you can mix and match and change your streamers and dacs to your heart’s delight.  Finally, the Harman acquisition secures Roon’s future, and hegemony, for a long time, IMHO. Most of their higher-cost competitors are small, specialty companies.  

I’ve been in kind of a similar situation relative to price range. Only that I’m looking to upgrade my current streamer. Which sounds great, but tends to be quite glitchy (Pi2 design Mercury). Within that contending field - Volumio Rivo, Lumin U2 Mini, used Aurelic or Aurender etc. But why not Eversolo DMP A6 Masters edition or even the A8? The A8 is a kind of all in one. Not the direction I’d prefer to go, but is supposed to be so good in its components and design to be worth it.

The British Audiophile did some nice comparisons between the A8 and and (I think) Aurelic streamer: 

Thanks for all the suggestions of brands and models. Not sure about the Eversolo, but the Volumio Rivo seems to match very will with the Merason Frerot. However, I prefer a streamer with the option of adding an internal 4tb ssd card. And then, of course, is the question is how it will natch with the rest of my system (Audible Illusions Modulus 3A, Belles SA-100, Audio Physic Caldera. Still some work to do to find this out...

mdalton, indeed there are many threads on the topic. However, my initial question about this was related to the fact that my current (older) streamer broke down and I then connected my (older) Accuphase transport to my DAC, which sound blew me away. What should I invest, and which ones to check, to keep me blown away :-)

WiiM Pro Plus…it’s good…

@ghdprentice 

I curious as to your statement about the future of Roon.  I am not a Roon user and have no axe to grind here.   I have seen it used and while it impressive I just simply don’t need it.

  I have wondered why a company like Apple doesn’t torpedo it. Apple Music service and Qobuz both seem to offer Roon like features about music that you choose to stream.  Roon will integrate stored music into the streamed music in your library, but Apple also does this with music that I had previously scanned into iTunes or purchased from iTunes.  It would seem to me to be easy to access any stored music and then integrate it into the UI, thus obviating the need for Roon
 

stievus OP

6 posts

03-02-2024 at 09:10pm

… I then connected my (older) Accuphase transport to my DAC, which sound blew me away. What should I invest, and which ones to check, to keep me blown away :-)

@stievus seems you’re comparing older CD’s to streaming; you’d probably do well to make sure it’s not just different file quality vs. device performance differences you’re perceiving. CD files (production data known) vs. streamed files (production data often unknown) can easily be apples to oranges.

I wasn't comparing. Old and new CDs sound great with my APh transport. I am just curious which streamer would perform on a similar level and how much one should invest te get that.

The pro-ject is designed to facilitate the direct connection of an external drive to a usb input, and I think the iFi is as well.  not sure about the others I referenced, but you should check. Regarding the difference in sound you heard, there are two other reasons I could think of:

1) It could be that your DAC is not fully immune to jitter or other noise introduced to it from either your streamer or your cd transport.  If that were the case, you could hear a difference between the two. Btw, you never mentioned what model your old streamer was - that could be the culprit.

2) When you changed to cd, you listened intently for differences, and could simply be hearing what you were listening for.  That’s a classic opportunity for confirmation bias, something we’ve all experienced a time or two.  For a more in depth discussion of that, you could check out the thread “The Emperor Has No Clothes” (though full warning, you’ll have to wade thru a lot  of discussion of cars!).

Snd regarding synergy with your system, the folks in my camp generally believe that a streamer, properly implemented, does not have a sonic signature of its own.  That’s established in the analogue realm, which means somewhere between your DAC and your speakers.  Hope that helps.

WiiM Pro, 5v LPS, Roon into a RME ADI-2. Super nice when cascading Cisco switches, Finisar FTLX1475D3BTL transceivers and a short Blue Jeans ethernet cable into the WiiM Pro. 

Before dropping a ton of money, consider using the WiiM Pro as a streamer only with a similar configuration.  

@stievus 

Same with me relative to storage. I’m equally torn about the Rivo. I keep coming back to it since I’ve already got a decent power supply that would work with it - which very much makes a difference.  Alpha Audio had a pretty high opinion of it as long as the power supply is upgraded and you use aes/ebu for the output. Volumio OS  is also unique, in that the plugins offer some advantages. Music Shield can calm down the CPU to reduce jitter, and the app itself offers up sampling options as well. I’ve found both to make a palpable change in SQ overall. 

@mdalton 

It is an Accuphase DP-67, Sony KSS 240A transport. Lots of detail, depth, transparency and so on....

I may be in over my head here, but I don’t understand how you were streaming previously.  If I’m not mistaken, the Accuphase is a CD player (i.e., both a transport and an internal DAC), but it doesn’t have streaming ability does it?  And based upon my advanced research skills (called “Google”), the Sony is an “optical block” associated with a CD transport.  Am I missing something obvious? How have you been streaming Qobuz with that setup?

CDs when played back on a top notch player or a transport fed into a good dac sound really good. As a matter of fact trying a very modest transport, Audiolab 6000CDT, into my Bricasti M3 DAC was the driving factor for my streamer upgrade. I just couldn’t stand listening to the built in network renderer Roon endpoint. One of the biggest differences was how articulate and engaging the CDs were. Yes there are potentially different masters on Qobuz and not necessarily the same as the CD and you can hear it in the mix but the emotional engagement aspect wasn’t comparable no matter how many songs/albums from Qobuz and Tidal I compared to CDs.

Don’t you love it when you ask for advice and you get a response claiming that you’re pretty much delusional because what you hear, none of that is real, it’s all in your head. The details, transparency and depth is all confirmation bias. Or your dac is not entirely immune to jitter. Or it is both confirmation bias and your dac sucks.

In your case the Accuphase machine is top notch. It’s going to be an uphill battle for the lesser streamers to reach or beat the baseline set by the DP-67.
Stay the course. Don’t let any of this sway you away from trying a good streamer. It might take some more time and a bit more funds to get to that level but once you do, you will probably never play another CD again unless it’s a rare album not available on streaming services (you can also rip those to a nice SSD and enjoy playing those local files thru your streamer)

+1 @romanesq 

it’s also amazing what a couple of $30 network switches can do for sound quality. Jitter and noise can be mitigated in a big way before getting to the streamer. Made an enormous difference in my setup, and am convinced it can elevate any already revealing system. 

'In your case the Accuphase machine is top notch. It’s going to be an uphill battle for the lesser streamers to reach or beat the baseline set by the DP-67.
Stay the course. Don’t let any of this sway you away from trying a good streamer. It might take some more time and a bit more funds to get to that level but once you do, you will probably never play another CD again unless it’s a rare album not available on streaming services (you can also rip those to a nice SSD and enjoy playing those local files thru your streamer)'

Spot on response, the Accuphase DP-67 is a fabulous machine, difficult to surpass by the average streamer. That's why I asked for advice which ones to look for. If you have suggestions where to start and/or in what price range I would appreciate that.

As I replied in my earlier post…Aurender N10, Lumin u1 are definitely worth looking into. I’ll add the Aurender N200 and Lumin U2.
My preference would be the Aurender because of better build quality as well as better UI. I honestly don’t think the lower model Aurender N100 will get you where you want to be although it might be relatively close.

As to budget…you’re probably looking at a price range of $3,000 - $4,000 on a used market and $5,000 - $6,000 new. 

@stievus 

I am totally lost here.  I was asking you what was the 10-year old streamer that you had that you said no longer works?  Are you saying that your Accuphase has streaming capability? Or were you using a server of some sort that fed your Accuphase?

riccitone - haven’t tried many switches but did try two different Cisco switches: 2960 & Meraki.

Alpha Audio has done a lot of tests on various models (via YouTube) in great detail but they go the copper (ethernet) way and not optical fiber.

I had tried it their way too and the improvement wasn’t in the same ballpark as fiber. They indicate there are differences in the switches and categorize them overall as small. They do break it down among many different options including some of the commercial audio switches which don’t all get high grades.

From my Verizon fiber connection, I’m continuing that rout with cascading Cisco and upgraded Finisar transceivers.

Fo What I was saying is that my streamers broke down and because of that  I returned to my Accuphase transport to play cds ans was amazed about the sound of cds through my Accuphase and Merason dac. I am looking for a streamer that sounds just as good as my Accuphase dp-67 transport.

Thanks!

@audphile1 

“Don’t you love it when you ask for advice and you get a response claiming that you’re pretty much delusional because what you hear, none of that is real, it’s all in your head. The details, transparency and depth is all confirmation bias. Or your dac is not entirely immune to jitter. Or it is both confirmation bias and your dac sucks.”

To quote a former U.S. president, “there you go again.” That’s just an ad hominem attack dressed up as a defense of the OP.  I really urge you to dial it back.   I stated very clearly up front in my first response to the OP exactly what my perspective is, and also made sure that he understood that there was an alternative perspective.  And unlike you, I characterized that alternative in a fair and even-handed way.
 

And with respect to your specific accusations, let me just give you one example of how hyperbolic your language is.  I have never, in this post or any other, claimed that a DAC that is not completely immune to jitter and other sources of noise sucks.  I have seen others make that argument, but I have never done so.  My own opinion, if you care to consider it, is that DAC designers make deliberate design choices based on sonics and economics.  

Now I’m no expert on the following point, so I would invite others to correct me if I’m wrong, but I can imagine that an NOS DAC, which is obviously not over sampling, is also less likely to reclock.  And I can imagine that building in significant noise filtering costs more $ at the margin (just like reclicking and over sampling).  So I can imagine a designer might make an advertent decision to concentrate their spending on other aspects that, assuming the DAC has a clean signal from a streamer, are more likely to have positive sonic benefits. That is also why I imagine that some companies offer both reclocking/oversampling devices and DACs separately, so the consumer can choose more precisely what he or she wants to spend his or her $ on.  And I can totally understand why someone would buy just such a DAC, because they like how it sounds!  And that’s awesome, and I bet I’d enjoy it too!

Finally, to @stievus , please be careful how you let anonymous posters manipulate your views in order to grind their own axes.

@riccitone ​​​​@romanesq you guys are highjacking the thread

@stievus 

I swear, this is the last time I’m going to ask; I’m doing so because it might help me and others understand your situation and give you the feedback you’ve asked for.  What was or were the exact streamer(s) - brand(s) and model(s) - that broke down on you?  Am having a hard time understanding your reluctance to share that key data point.

@mdalton I respond honestly based on my own experience. There’s nothing ad hominem about my response at all.
I disagree with your theory and your endless confirmation bias propaganda and you can’t get over it.

Nothing for me to dial back here buddy. If you don’t like my posts, don’t read ‘em

 

mdalton

225 posts

03-02-2024 at 04:51pm

@stievus

I swear, this is the last time I’m going to ask;

who posts something like this? Pathetic.

doesn’t matter what he was using. CD beat it and he’s looking to match the quality of CD playback. 

@audphile1 

well I did obviously.  I would think you’d want to know something about what his prior experience is before you recommend such significant expenditures, but to each his own. and the use of the term “pathetic” is, again, ad hominem.

Sonos Connect Ultimo, a Sonos upgraded to a highend streamer by means of a better clock, power supply and spdif output. Done by Magna, a Dutch company, you likely don't know. But it doesn't matter as the cd transport was my reference.

As to the other points, I have asked a question in this forum. I am convinced everyone has tried his/her best to answer it, and I appreciate that. Some answers are more useful than others, but that is okay. It's my view that every answer has its merits.

very helpful.  You’re right, I don’t know anything about your modded Sonos, but the base Sonoscis likened to 44.1 khz, right? Whereas you DAC can handle up to 192 khz, right?  So in theiry, at least on some music, that could explain a difference in sound.  Again, hope that helps.

limited, not “likened”

It can handle 192, but that doesn't matter. I am looking for a streamer that matches the CD transport, not my previous streamer. I received some ideas what to look for, so that is good.

@mdalton well the way you react to what I post is your confirmation bias. 
@stievus a good way to look at it is everything has to more or less be on the level. What I mean is the quality of your transport has to at least match the quality of your DAC. There are products that punch above their price point but I’d say it’s not very common. Look at different streamer designs and what they’re optimized for. It’s important to understand that and how it might impact your digital front end performance, the synergy a particular streamer would have with your DAC.
In the case of Aurender N100, N150 and N200, Lumin U1 or U2…these are more USB optimized. The Aurender N10 and N20 have USB optimization but also feature a top notch OXCO clock for the SPDIF out. That gives you great performance if your DAC is geared more towards SPDIF signal processing.
If you have a DAC with a great USB section, you’d go for the N100, N150, N200 or any of the Lumin units. But that’s not to say the performance of the USB optimized streamer such as N200 is bad via SPDIF out. Trying it is the only way to know. 
Another aspect of it is power supplies. Linear power supplies in digital is almost always better than the switch mode type as the latter will pollute right back into the AC line potentially impacting other components in your system. 
Hope this helps. Take your time with your research and if possible audition streamers before buying. Good luck. 

Thanks, I will look into that!

@stievus 

got it. I do have some experience with a Wired4Sound modded Sonos unit that I borrowed from a friend a few years ago.  It sounds like yours does something very similar to what the W4S unit did, except the latter upsampled with a limit of 96 khz (spdif output).

In my system, I didn’t hear a difference between that and a Sonos output to a Benchmark DAC1, but emphasis on “my system.”  One other question I would pose that is way beyond my technical expertise is whether there’s a difference between the sound of something that comes in at 44.1khz and is upsampled to either 96k or 192khz- vs something that can handle a native rate of 96 or 192.  These are questions best answered by someone other than me.

@audphile1

I think “highjacking” is going way overboard. It may initially seem off topic to suggest a switch, but the result can help achieve where your suggestion comes into play. Which is to bring things to the level of high quality CD transport playback. Adding a decent switch will help regardless of how well a streamer is designed - until you get well above about 6k (Grimm Audio comes to mind). Is that what he’s looking to pay? But if bringing that up came across as side tracked, I am truly sorry. I think we are all here to help. 

Have to say just the same, your taking the position of authority in this discussion just as easily comes across as selfish, controlling and eminently entitled. So who’s really highjacking here?

I’m excited about some adjustments that make a difference and wanted to share some findings. And if you read earlier, I also made a few suggestions of streamers to consider.

Regardless,

@stievus I apologize if I went sideways on this and hope it’s all been helpful 🙏🏼

@riccitone

Didn’t mean to offend you. I think switches are just a different topic. This turned out to be kind of like when someone farts in a full elevator and the person who asks who farted is the rude one. I get it. Lol