The survival of the fittest.

i must confess to knowing Richard Vandersteen in 1982 ( Firm found. in 1977 ) and a friend since 2010 or so....

DRIVE, love of music, stubbornness, frugality, innovation ( look at the list of patents and as important trade secrets ...), investment in test gear, real science, listening, live music as a reference, no debt, vertical integration, etc.....

and not being satisfied...... 

You know I was a got to have them TEKTON'S guy, but then I sat down and started to think to my self. Lets look at them parts of the whole speaker and are the drivers not made by TEKTON. so who makes them? would they be made by Eminence? then I said to my self  do you remember the ad's that Acoustic Research would put in stereo review that would show you their Anechoic Chamber and all the testing they put into their design of the AR 9'S and they manufactured their own drivers. when a manufacture source's out their drivers,and when that driver is not made anymore you start to have the same problem Paul Klipsch had with his suppler EV  and EV had been on the seen for years!!, So Klipsch started with Stephens Trusonic drivers then switched to University then he started using E.V. You have a LOT of people on the sites today that are looking for replacement drivers after they found out that the driver is not made anymore, now i'm not saying that Eminence may not keep up with production of the driver for any Tekton model, but I will say is this what ever model you do purchase MAKE SURE YOU PURCHASE YOU SPARE WOOFER OR TWEETER after that major purchase, in case that voice coil has a open. I remember when Eminence use to make car speaker and I would see the drivers on the ground at flea markets and could buy a 15" woofer for $35.00 and I did notice one of Tektons model had change one of the woofers and that was a no no sign to me.

Which leads back to fit and finish. The speaker may still sound golden but if the MDF is crumbly and the vinyl blistering; going to be a detriment to success. Some companies, like OHM, have a trade in policy to mitigate cosmetic degradation. And possibly allow audio advancements. 

Interesting thread.  The real "proliferation" of BOSE came with their sub + satellites systems. If you think of it, it was actually audiophiles that were at least somewhat responsible for their success which started in the late 80's but really grew in the 90s. That was right about the time that audiophiles started to allow manufacturers to get away without providing detailed technical information. That allowed them to proliferate a sub with a wickedly high crossover frequency and holes in the spectrum in typical room environments. This would be "law of unintended consequences" :-)

But seriously, Bose is still around in many ways because of technical prowess and consumer awareness. Yes really. What they did in 1984 with their OEM system for the Corvette was beyond most other companies at the time. While not up to today's systems, it was a big step up compared to every prior OEM system (and most aftermarket without modifying the car).  Waveradio was the product people wanted. They were a decade ahead on headphones and active noise cancelling, a much wanted product. Their small BT speakers were also class leading in a similar form factor at the time.


w.r.t the proliferation of speaker brands, back to that audiophiles not insisting on technical details. That has lowered the barrier to entry on speakers (and any number of other products) to just about 0. Anyone can whip together drivers and a cabinet and call themselves a speaker company. If you create good products that don't have defining features, then you better be prepared to stick it out while you develop a following through organic growth.  However, take a tact like Tekton and do something unique (right or wrong), and you can grow much faster (just like the Bose Acoustimass - unique at the time) because you will get free marketing well beyond your size as everyone wants to talk about you.

To stay around, as many have noted, you have to keep catching the customer's eyes (ears). Speakers last a long time, so return sales is a difficult game.

I really like my $400, second generation B&W 803's, with subs from the prototype 800 woofer used in the DM 16.series. I did keep my 'Stats and my even older B&W stand mounts, but for value... WOW!  Admittedly, I have to use two matching amps and pre-amps to get the sound right, but I also get to alter the bass output to compensate for crappy recordings, so some cheapness is lost.

How about Blue Circle? Gilbert Yeung built amazing components for years until he simply retired. 

So Kenjit who is full of s—t, you say don’t buy high-end speakers. Does this mean you don’t like high-end speakers or you just can’t afford them? Or, do you actually own any speakers at all, other than your non-existent design?

Yes and it says in the review that Tekton had been around 4.5 years before the review. So call it 16 years. But the OP will change the rules again. That's not "survival of the fittest" see because in that time they didn't survive they grew. Or something like that. Never can tell with these Rorschach type threads.

FWIW, the earliest review of a Tekton Design speaker I found was in 2009 where they won a Best of 2009 award. So they've been around for at least 12 years.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0809/tekton_design_ob45.htm

He had had a couple pairs damaged in his showroom and he had several owners return them and demand warranty repair because they got damaged by a minor incident. I'm not sure if this is the major reason Apogee failed but it was certainly a factor.

Apogee didn't really fail they were bought out by ADS, and they didn't think there was enough profit in the speaker to continue the line.  Apogee didn't charge enough money for most of their speakers. The duetta 2 speaker was only $2300 when they made them.

Thanks for the info....

But i think their innovation (dual concentric) are there after all these years because they are very good also.... A myth in audio is rarely a complete lie....

@Mahgister: Tannoy made its name (and fortune) in PA equipment all the way back to the 1930s and really got going with military sales in WW2. The domestic audio line is successful, but I think PA equipment still pays the bills. Even so they are on their third owner, in the Philippines. Perhaps that is the secret of longevity; being sold to a larger foreign corporation, viz. Quad is now owned by IAG, and B&W is owned by Sound United.

@jpwarren58-  "Tweak Evangelist" and "Count of Concrete" totally made my day--i'm still laughing.

BTW Count of Concrete--You can't say it's all marketing and it's all word of mouth in the same sentence--it's one or the other.  

The "timing" factor is the most difficult to understand....This timing factor is more encompassing than just luck....

Because like a human being, a company or a product has his birth date, and his life and crisis....
The timing factor is a point in time where the others intervening factors plays well together or not....
The survival of any company, designing speakers or not is related to this timing convergence...
The analysis of a speakers company history or any company is centered around this convergence or timing factors...

It will be interesting to compare the many different designers of speakers and looking for this time convergence of many factors in their success and relating the timing of their innovative different technology to their comparative rate of success speed in time ...

There exist no longevity without timing, even if a company take good decisions, the convergent decisions must be taken in a certain window of time...

Ok i hope that i had not annoy anybody....I will pass the torch....

:)

I think that Sansui speakers were not so well reviewed at any times like their amplifiers always were .... It was more a side product by a great amplifier designer....

For the longevity question, i think it speak volume when 50 years after their creation some product, be it speakers or amplifiers, Tannoy in one case and Sansui in the other, some products become mythical well designed sought after products... When the state of the company, being alive or dead, do not change the product value at all, it speaks volume about the importance of the quality and innovative design factor ....The main factor for me indeed with the right pricing and the timing factor in the survival of the company....

After some decades the main new intervening factor being the transmission of the traditions and innovative genius to the successive generation....It was no more the case with Sansui tradition in around 1995, but for Tannoy the company kick always at the time being other speakers companies "butts" so to speak.... :)


Just a last word to say that the survival of a company is not ruled by the same exact factors than the survival of a product in the market... The Company and the product are not synonymus and do not partake to the same fate completely...

Sansui company is dead for many decades, Sansui amplifiers kicks butts today; Tannoy dual gold sell for gold today and the company create new design that dont replace or kill the old one at all.... That say something also....


My best to you....

Sansui used to make speakers, too. Some were stand-outs (those with white membranes). I am not sure how sound would compare to more recent technologies. Therefore, longevity of a speaker manufacturer Sansui...

...well, it was good while it lasted.

I speak also about Tannoy, a brand name actually living strong, not only a vintage brand, that sell easily( i sold my 2 pairs of dual concentric gold paid 400 dollars 45 years ago 2,000 dollars)...

Their dual concentric tech was new and very amazing and the timing right...

Why do Tannoy succeed and go on living so long? For me the 2 essential factors are design quality/pricing and timing, amongs others important factors (advertising, esthetic, workers and transmission of technology, innovative new produtcs, standadization of line products etc).

If an innovative technology works , it can work even better for ever, magneplanar tech for example....When a new tech, is so revolutionary, then the product is unique, irrepleacable it can even grow stronger.... Magneplanar is an example...

Perhaps the new Tekton technology with an array of drivers is on the same road.... Electro-acoustic speakers are.... Horn speakers also....

It is the reason why design quality/pricing and originality is one of the most important factor in longevity.... All the others factors for me are subordinate to the timing factor, except perhaps the transmission of skills in a new generation of works....This tradition of transmission of skills with all his requirements were no more possible in the case of Sansui  and were broken, amongst other factors, by the exigencies of the new emerging competitive mass market at the times....The same forces act and plays for or against any audio product, speakers or amplifiers....

My best to all....

I am glad that you are enjoying your older Sansui gear. But the topic was speaker manufacturers survival not vintage gear. All the best to you!

@ mahgister
Sansui? They folded many moons ago!

Yes but they are sold used for the last 50 years with glorious review to this day, not bad for a company that is no more for the last 20 years.. .... I own 2 amplifier Sansui....one of the alpha series and the older Au 7700....

They are very good each one  and offer more flexibilities than almost any contemporary amplifier....Particularly my AU 7700...( separable pre-amp section that is very good, filters, tone controls of quality, and many other possibilities too numerous to list here)

Soundwise i cannot fault them....

I will upgrade who knows when, for a Berning amplifier but ,but for 150 dollars versus many thousands dollars, the quality and appeal of the Sansui is without doubt one of the best deal i ever make....Look at my link below what this experienced reviewer say about the AU 717 which is soundwise between my AU 7700 And the so called superior "alpha" series :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsTIDagHbMI&t=149s


Sansui lost when their time and "timing" plays no more in the good direction around 1995....Their history is interesting...

Vintage does not equal lower quality by no means....

I dream sometimes of my future Berning amp but i am in no urge and perhaps i will die with these 2 Sansui.... Except for the Zotl Technology anyway i would be afraid to upgrade Sansui with anything under 10,000 dollars.....The Zotl technology should beat the Sansui, that i am pretty sure...

For the speakers it is more difficult, in my small room on a desk, the 50 dollars almost vintage Mission Cyrus 781 are so good on all counts, that i am also afraid to upgrade.... Which small speakers will give me 45 hertz clear bass, liquid mid range, non fatiguing highs, imaging perfect and holographic soundstage (thanks to my embeddings controls also for sure) ?

I sold my 2 pairs of Tannoy dual concentric after 40 years because they were too big for my desk.... when you are older the house decrease ... :)

The Tannoy speakers were more than good speakers but alas! i did know nothing about embeddings controls at these times and i never listen to them at their optimal output, like most people dont even know what S.Q. their own audio system can output because they do not embed it at all or not enough....




Small Tekton perhaps ? The designer Erik seems very interesting creator like Berning is.... I am fond of new tech..... 😎

@ mahgister
Sansui? They folded many moons ago!

The original OP is narrowed to high-end speakers, but the answer applies to business in general.

1) Businesses require time, resources, effort to run in a non-fixed market conditions (changes over time).  What sold well this year may not be the same as the next
2) High-end audio is a small niche market heavily influenced by advances in technology/performance.  3) if a manufacturer came out with a new product consumers expect it to be an improvement over the previous model all else being equal (similar prices) or better if it cost more.  Notable exceptions are speakers “within their price point” remain competitive even with minimum/no further innovations (efficient Klipsch Heresy/Cornwall/Klipschhorns, Ohm Walsh).  Speaker designers often keep bringing new/improved versions into the market to stay relevant (Elac, Magico, etc)
4) initially speaker design/manufacturing is a labor of love- few/nobody gets rich.  5) Speaker designers/manufacturers have different ability and/or interest in growing a business which in any business is no easy cakewalk.  6) if the speaker designer/manufacturer doesn’t pass along his knowledge before he exits the market the company will disappear 
7) if the speaker designer/manufacturer is successful in passing along his knowledge & delegate his responsibilities & people running the company is competent & has the resources to keep running the company & that there is a continued demand for his products & people in the company successfully meet the market innovation demands & the market demands his products (profitable enough), then the company has a chance to continue beyond the founding speaker designer/manufacturer

bigkidz

When we started, I was politely introduced to marketing - the reviews are not free. It is very political also.

You were introduced to the wrong people. Legitimate audio magazines and websites don't charge for a review other than requiring the temporary loan of a product sample. Politics are everywhere in life, so it doesn't make much sense to single the audio world out for that.

Many of the products today are distributed by brick & mortar dealers. Many brands have protected territories like Vandersteen, B&W, etc.

As well it should be, imo.

It is not easy to get your product to the market

That has always been true.

Hi, mahg...*S*  ...at least, somebody here will understand me....;)

Timing, Yes.  Right Place, Right Time, Right 'Thing'.

'ell....Pet Rock....Mood Rings.....wierd things you didn't know could sell.

Now, add esoteric audio items and add decimal places and say 'Newer than New!'

It has this 'hilarity function'.....

My wife certainly wouldn't allow a pair of Tekton's to be displayed in our living room nor would I.  Pretty ugly in my opinion.  I can't believe how ugly some of the systems I see pictured on Audiogon are.  They must have some very forgiving wives or they might be single or they might be in a finished basement.  However, I am sure they sound great.  For me they also have to look great and fit into our living room and not destroy the look of our home.  We spend a lot on furniture and we are proud of the way our home looks.

My point is that there is an individual story behind every business failure. I started a consumer products business which failed after 11 years and there’s no way I could cite a single reason.

Great point....

I called this unknown reason : TIMING.....Timing for the ascent and timing for the descent in oblivion and timing between competitors....

All about life is about timing....

Even a flock of birds or fish knows that....

I will not elaborate more about timing....Too much controversies already in audio to embark in "timing"...🙄😁😊

«Time is the most mysterious and unexplained concept in science and timing the most evident phenemenon in nature»- Anonymus

...by Jove, nearly an existentialist moment for a thread....!

*s*  I think I'll lurk for now....but anytime y'all start talking omni's (Ohm, Walsh, and the like)...

There are hundreds of reasons why one speaker brand succeeds and another fails - just like other businesses. I can cite one great speaker brand that went out of business (it didn't really fail) for a very particular reason. When Jim Thiel died his speaker company ended because there was no successor to his engineering talent. His obsession with time and phase coherency using first order crossovers and custom designed and house-built drivers was labeled "impossible" by one of his competitors.

Another example is Apogee speakers. I don't know as much about them as Thiel (see Thiel Owner's thread) but I did know a dealer well who retailed them. I was saving up for a pair of Duetta II's and he indulged me to listen to them once every few weeks. I went into the store one day and they were gone. I asked what happened and he told me he dropped the line. I was crestfallen but he said he was at the point where he couldn't have sold them to me in good conscience. He knew that I had two small kids and he said that the speakers were so susceptible to damage from little fingers, or cats, or other dangers in a typical home that he couldn't retail them. He had had a couple pairs damaged in his showroom and he had several owners return them and demand warranty repair because they got damaged by a minor incident. I'm not sure if this is the major reason Apogee failed but it was certainly a factor.

My point is that there is an individual story behind every business failure. I started a consumer products business which failed after 11 years and there's no way I could cite a single reason.

Having been on this site for nearly 20 years, I find that the content of this forum hasn’t changed all that much. What has changed is the desire for people on either side of a discussion (or argument if you prefer) to shout the other side down and the amount of vitriol displayed to do so. People see no need to consider the other side of the coin when they are certain that they are right. That is not confined to this site. It is prevalent in society everywhere these days.

Thanks for voicing and writing better than i could do what i think....

My best regards to you....


P.S. it is interesting to interrogate ourself and others about the question the OP propose anyway, saying the opposite is simply bad faith....There is worst thread than this one to say the least...

Like i said for me quality of design/pricing and timing are  the keys for the survival, i will pose advertising method in a wide sense only third....And Esthetic fourth.... 😊

Interesting thread. 

I an a volunteer at SCORE, which is an all volunteer organization and part of the Small Business Administration. I work with clients who wish to start or grow their small business. These folks range from people who who do not have a clue to those who will be successful. 

There seem to be some basic steps that all successful small businesses follow in the current internet capable society. Without getting into too many details, these folks have something that other people are willing to pay for and they have a knack for scaling their business to mesh with their available resources; which include dollars to invest on the business and their time available to devote to it. It is amazing the number of folks who start small and are on the way to success through word of mouth and an effective presence on Google, Facebook, Instagram, etc.

My opinion is that small speaker manufacturers can be very effective with word of mouth if they are willing to keep their day job for a while. 

A good example of this is Tyler Acoustics in Kentucky, which has no formal advertising except for occasionally offering models for sale on US Audio Mart and has a positive presence on various blogs including Audiogon. 

I ran across Tyler Acoustics while trolling the internet threads and called Ty and got to know him a bit when I was considering life after Maggie 3.6's. That did not pan out for him as I ended up going down the Thiel rabbit hole. However, I spoke with him again last fall and took delivery on a pair of his speakers this year. He still has his day job and still is building speakers that he will customize for a potential customer.

By the way, I am glad I tried his speakers because I like how they sound!

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

Some good insights here.  As someone who’s been around ( lower) high end since the 70s I think it’s offering something unique (whether real or not) that makes a good story - previously thru reviews and dealers - now through word of mouth on the internet.  
The also need to keep evolving as others will come after your space unless you have patents like Ohm. 
Was a big/early fan of DCM back in the day (going to school in Ann Arbor).  Great value and unique approach but didn’t follow it up and becomes just another speaker company over time... they might have been sold over that time too and lost the vision of the company founders...

@amg56.  Okay, boomer. 

Your post was littered with gatekeeper statements and sweeping generalizations, as if somehow you determine what'd fit for discussion. I get that you feel the rhetoric has changed, but to decry more and more people asking questions as indicative of laziness and myopia as a stone that has stopped rolling. 

All the components we build are word of mouth because we cater to a unique audiophile whose only concern is the best sound.  When we started, I was politely introduced to marketing - the reviews are not free.  It is very political also.  Many of the products today are distributed by brick & mortar dealers.  Many brands have protected territories like Vandersteen, B&W, etc.  So shops marketed what they could get.  That has changed some where even PS Audio has now gone direct.  I spoke in length with VPI about this and they seems to imply that if they started today, they would also probably sell direct.

It is not easy to get your product to the market the old fashion way.  Very few dealers will take on a new company.  Who wants to take the chance to carry a product that may not be there a few years down the line.  A dealer also wants to show things that look very nice.  Aesthetic appeal is important.

When we looked to partner with a speaker company and started researching them, we found so many speaker companies that don't even have representation in the US, but they were fantastic sounding speakers.  I mean a hundred speaker manufacturers.  Ascendo was a speaker manufacturer that I liked.  They have been in the US with mostly in-home dealers.  When I contacted them, they seemed not be that interested and recommended another manufacturer that they liked for me to contact.  I found that very interesting.

So there are many factors for success and falling by the wayside.  Mostly money, distribution network and aesthetic appeal.

Happy Listening,

Come on this thread is worthy of speculation. He's not asking for a recommendation only how to succeed in a flooded market that quickly losing mainstream interest.

This forum was once a technical and engineeringly group of audio enthusiasts that got called audiophiles. Those that thought about little but HiFi.

Now we have amateurs pretending to be audiophiles because the have
the “cables, burnt the right direction”, which is said to benefit by being lifted off the floor”, cups of metal on the wall, fuses costing as much as some components and so arguments continue. Without some sort
of qualification, these differences seem moot.

Having been on this site for nearly 20 years, I find that the content of this forum hasn't changed all that much. What has changed is the desire for people on either side of a discussion (or argument if you prefer) to shout the other side down and the amount of vitriol displayed to do so. People see no need to consider the other side of the coin when they are certain that they are right. That is not confined to this site. It is prevalent in society everywhere these days. 

Sitting here, yes 😂

@amg56

Butthurt much?

@amg56

+100   Nailed it.

Survival of the fittest? What are
 you talking about? This is going to stir!

There are three markets. The lower priced “Tekt••” brand type of cheaper, not so famously engineered type, but appeals to the big bangers, not so much to the elegant truer sound of upper market (ie highly engineered) and more expensive speakers.

Then there are the most highly engineered speakers (Wilson, Focal, Sonas Faber) plus a page more of successful speaker manufacturers. These know what they are doing with sound, regardless of cost.

Then there are the “micro” engineers producing speakers of extraordinary engineering, pushing boundaries I suspect very few have experienced. Duntech was an earlier engineer, now we have AudiomachIna (you need
to read and understand the white paper) to see how revolutionary the XTAC system is. Not price. Nor volume of sales. Just a real understanding of how speaker systems work. Another, Kyron Audio. A mass of awards, unique engineering.

From reading months of posts from people who seem to have a forum to advertise “their preference of speaker brand”, and this right is vehemently argued. I have now understood that most in this forum are not so subtle advertisers of a particular brand, regardless of its price/quality, rather than those who would explore outside the common cheaper offerings. I know I will have a big backlash from a certain “MC” who professes to know everything audio.

I would encourage all prospective purchasers of speakers, to understand what output/quality of sound you look for, and instead of being convinced to aim for the mainstream, look for the quiet engineers who might just convince you
to look afield and possibly achieve the sound you were after, after all.

This forum was once a technical and engineeringly group of audio enthusiasts that got called audiophiles. Those that thought about little but HiFi.

Now we have amateurs pretending to be audiophiles because the have
the “cables, burnt the right direction”, which is said to benefit by being lifted off the floor”, cups of metal on the wall, fuses costing as much as some components and so arguments continue. Without some sort
of qualification, these differences seem moot.

 I see posts asking for opinion a on this or that, what is better than that. What strikes me is that many of the posters are too lazy to find out the information themselves. Leading to the question, are there after real knowledge, or are they setting up a confrontation? And there are many of these inane posts.

What used to be a great forum of help and education has turned into a myopic group of self satisfiers who have lost the ability
to look afar and draft in new audio technology and have honest discussions about it.

Maybe I am getting past reading the vast pointless posts. But a few still catch my
eye and these I can really converse with.

I hope the standard of this forum ( and its contributors) improves.

🇦🇺

"Marketing- no discernable marketing"...Tekton has had full page adds in Stereophile and the Absolute Sound every month for years...I think that's called marketing.

I will add Sansui.... Even today their old amplifier had a good resale value....Quality of design and market timing which is a more appropriate designation than "luck"...

Timing explain much in the ascent and descent of companies....

Then quality/pricing and timing are for me the 2 main factors in all histories...

@simao   I found this:  https://www.ecrater.com/p/8977442/ohm-i-speaker-ad-rare-articleomnidirectional?gps=1&id=10239874...

Another great company that's been around for 47 years is Monitor Audio. And I believe the reason why is because they're always pushing the envelope improving technology and striving to make their speakers sound more natural. That's what separates the good from the bad or the mediocre I believe they're always pushing to make things sound more real.
.

One other thing with Ohm is other than being located in NYC, there is nothing fancy or pretentious about their operation....very blue collar/nuts and bolts. I suspect they do a very good job of keeping the overhead low.

Atmasphere also offers products with unique design and performance that offers good value compared to many. He also seems to have a very good rap for customer service.

Tekton’s strong point is offering good value products that are generally more tube amp friendly than most.   A nice niche!

I'll add Tannoy to that list of enduring brands, both Tannoy and wharfedale are the oldest speaker companies still going today. All I can say about Tekton, you only need one properly performing and designed tweeter with a superior crossover to the midrange driver to effectively have a great sound result. 

So, question: How does someone like Atma-Sphere continue operating? I mean, what broad marketing does he have to account for his continuing sales?
@kijanki I wasn't aware that Ohm had those ads back then. That probably accounted for their launchpad.

One other very unique aspect of Ohm that helps I suspect is the patented, totally unique design and performance aspect of the Walsh products. That clearly differentiates the products from others. It helps to have something unique of value to offer.   There is nothing else out there I know of  that can easily replace a pair of Ohm Walsh speakers at any price. 

@simao  I remember OHM advertisements in late 70's.  They also had a lot of positive reviews.   Once company product is known and respected it likely doesn't need much advertising.  On the other hand it puzzles me that they are able to operate direct only.  Perhaps quality/price ratio and friendly policies, like 120 days trial or 5 years warranty, are attractive enough.

As for Hyperions - one reviewer liked them more than Wilson Puppy (for less than 1/4 $$$)

http://hyperion.droppages.com/Images/Hear%20the%20Hype_low_res.pdf

High end survives over time by establishing a loyal customer base.  Magnepan is one of those companies.  No one ever made money by selling one to a customer.

That is true for speakers as well as electronics.  Tektron seems to be getting a following, time will tell.

Marketing has value, but quality and value is what makes repeat business.

L.U.C.K.  Learning Upon Correct Knowledge.

I’ve seen a lot of Bose speakers in commercial applications such as restaurants and bars.  Perhaps they are focusing some of their speaker business there, too.