I really like my speakers but I am considering an upgrade. I have B&W 801 S2 MkIII that I bought new in 1999 (re-coned with modded x-over). I’m afraid that what I get will not equal them and new may just be different.
They are bi-amped with McIntosh up top and Krell on the bottom. Analog is Revox B77 and dig is Oppo 105D with Bryston DAC3.
I will also likely upgrade the DAC but this thread is about speakers.
I need a dynamic loudspeaker that is as good with chamber music as it is with acoustic jazz, rock and electronic music (everything but Country and Rap).
I haven’t heard anything yet but am considering Borrersen X3, Wilson Sasha and B&W 803 D4.
Should I be afraid or will these speakers all best a 25 yr old design?
My guess is OP was meaning "worried" but somehow ended up with "afraid".
@ritter06, yes, worry is always on the back of mind, however much auditioning/research you have done. It took me 2.5 years and 2 AXPONA shows to finalize my current speakers. So, don't worry - and as others have suggested, try to listen to as many loudspeakers as you can, read up, reach out to folks (not reviewers) who own the speakers you might be leaning towards, etc and you should be good. Have fun during auditioning.
And the most important thing - even if you purchase the world's best speakers there will ALWAYS be people who would say, you should have gone with X rather than Y. Learn to ignore such comments and you should be happy with the new loudspeakers for another 25-30 years. Good luck.
Check the Dali Epikore line. New model is priced at $40K per pair. I have spent time with the $60K Epikore 11 and it is one of the most effortlessly natural sounding speakers I have heard. I am very familiar with B&W 802 D4, Focal Sopra, Utopia Scala EVO, Wilson Sasha DAW…all have their strengths, but the Epikore 11 is the whole package. The price is largely due to its huge size…the cabinet is much bigger than the others I named. The new model is reduced to 2 8” woofers from 4 per speaker.
I’ve been able to compare Joseph Audio speakers to B&W over the years and found the JA speakers to be superior in every way. They disappear better, throw off a more expanded and believable 3D soundstage, and they provide all the detail of the B&Ws but just do it in a more “natural” way is best I can describe it. This is to say if you can demo JA speakers I think it would be very worthwhile. For reference I compared the JA RM25si to the 803N back in the day and more recently the original Pulsar to the 805 D3. Best of luck.
I think you can definitely improve on your old B&Ws. But let's appreciate that they gave you decades worth of enjoyment! Best bet is to find a good semi-local dealer and see if you can listen to some options for yourself. Then see if you can try the ones you like best in your own home for a while.
Yes I understand your concerns which are all very valid, but changing speakers is always a challenge and more so if a home demonstration is not possible.
But, nothing venture nothing gain.
Audio shows have their limitations in assessing different speakers for all sorts of well known reasons. Finding ones that have the right synergy with your existing system is also a key consideration.
I am on my third pair of YG speakers, namely Hailey Reference 2.2 , which I consider to be outstanding but well above your price range. A used pair of Carmels could be an option if you like their sound.
I was attracted to YG by a review of the Carmel 1s a long time ago and I paid my first visit to Munich specifically to hear them. The room YG had for that show was excellent and their sound confirmed what I had read.
In my experience audio components all have distinct characteristics to their sound and all my three pairs of YGs have reproduced and brought out their differences and nuances because of their inherent and first class neutrality.
Going to one of the shows mentioned should give you an opportunity to assess different options and find some that appeal to you. Careful reading of review, ie reading between the lines, can often provide the additional insights to supplement your show listening experiences.
In my experience it is a journey worth making as long as you do your homework and take your time. It is one that can bring significant rewards
If I were in your shoes, I would be looking at pre-owned (5-10 years old). You can still make a big jump with technology and get a great used speaker in the $15-$25k range that once retailed for $40-$50k. Magico, Focal, Rockport, YG, etc. Take your time, read the forums and reviews.
+1 for Rockports. I had the (daughter won't let me sell them) B and W 801 Matrix anniversary model powered by a Krell KSA 150 for 30 years. I then moved to Wilson Sasha 2s, but could never get them to a sound I could live with. I now have Rockports and I love them. The sound is very balanced and musical. They also continue to resolve at greater and greater levels as I improve how they are fed. I am not motivated to replace them.
when recommendations become this specific, it gets confusing. It's "I have X, I love X, you should buy X" territory which is not a useful context the OP can rely on.
But what do I know, I have never owned a 3K+ speaker, cancel me
If one reads the specifics the OP is looking for, then "X" might be a good fit. Even if the person suggesting it owns "X".
Now suggesting "X" only because you own it and love it, is not helpful. If I say I want a speaker that will shine with a 4 watt tube amp, don't tell me your Wilson Audio Alexx is the one I should buy.
@ozzy62there is a difference between suggesting what might be a good fit and the other one I criticized. But one can always argue both ways, that I am suggesting X because it's the best fit for OP, not because I love it or I am selling one right now.
I stay away from suggesting what I love for this exact reason, it's too biased. There are enough objective criteria, I'd leave the subjective out of it. The OP clearly doesn't know 95 out of a 100 brands (like most of us), to me it's wild to start throwing brand names into the mix, when he has preferences. And I could go on and on...
Let me offer up another thought. The fellow who designed many of the best technologies and speakers at B&W is Laurence Dickie. After leaving B&W he continued to develop and improve upon many of the technologies he had pioneered at B&W. He founded Vivid Audio with a partner and continued this upward trajection of speaker design. The Vivid Audio line of speakers is, in a manner of speaking, what B&W could have become. You should experience what Vivid Audio has to offer. If you like your B&Ws I have a feeling you'll find the Vivid speakers exactly what you're looking for.
One consideration I would add is resale. These could be my last set of speakers.
Or perhaps not. A more esoteric brand of speaker will be harder to shift. I'm inclined to stick with a better know brand. When I throw that into the mix it favors something like the 802 D4.
On resale there seem to be a ton of used Sashas and Wilsons in general - why is that- because they sell a lot of them, hence more for resale?
re: resale - these are very expensive speakers. I would imagine some of the buyers just have money and "no ears". So they get bored eventually and tried to move them out of their living room and switch back to the soundbar
I own the X-3's in White....Beautiful, musical and NEVER fatiguing....but very detailed and life like...If yo like the Live experience, they're hard to beat...I want to sell mine (mint) and move up the Borresen line. These people have Sound Down to an art!
Absolutely.... your kids will sell it for peanuts when you die anyway! Enjoy now. It's like having a classic car you don't drive. Why save it for the next guy?
@OP There are a lot of used Wilson speakers around because people upgrade to newer Wilsons.
On B&W's - there's no guarantee you will like the latest generation better - they are certainly not a speaker I would choose for chamber music.
Magico A5s are worth listening to - more evenly balanced that D4 B&Ws but somewhat similar in character.
Personally, I would prefer the Sasha DAW but, while the thread is not about digital, I would not compromise the budget for a digital front end upgrade because, especially with more modern speakers, you are really going to need it.
In fact, I would suggest looking at that before changing speakers at all.
My pick would be Joseph Audio Perl. Kharmas are also dynamic with a good authority. Dynaudio confidence 50 should be also very good. I would look YG or Rockport over Wilson or BW. Later brands looks beautiful but the sound never moved me.
A few days ago I took the opportunity to listen to a dSC > Burmester (hybrid) > Magico S system, and it was exceptionally good. Musical, and not fatiguing - among the very best digital SQ I have ever heard. I tend to listen to vinyl, and this system sounded that good...
So I agree with the earlier comments stating that the Magico speakers are accurate and extremely revealing (compare to many other brands of speakers), so your font-end needs to be up to the task.
You will hear it all, the good and the bad. Isn't that what generations of audiophiles have been asking for from manufacturers?
Listen to the Yamaha NS-5000 from the world's largest producer of musical instruments. All three drivers are the same material so integration is seamless for your chamber music.
Unless human ears are redesigned the only change the industry is making is less for more. Practicality must be balanced with imperative. We drove 250 miles to hear speakers. We paid to have them shipped that 250 miles.
If you need something smaller requiring less power try the TAD ME1.
For your list of musical genres (and all for that matter) and the playback characteristics you mentioned, no doubt that Legacy Audio's Aeris speaker with Wavelet v2 should be on your list. I've heard the 3 speaker models you've listened play a wide variety of music in several settings. I would still Aeris for what you are looking for. I owned them for a bit over two years and they handle everything you are looking for and more (IMHO).
I guess a more general question might be are speakers today (>$15k) better than their 25 year old equivalents?
Some are, some aren't. I still use older speakers - Wilson, and Vandersteen and ML CLS that perform very well and I have heard and respect original Quads within their limitations. Very hard to assess speakers at a dealer in a totally different system than yours and be sure they will sound better. The speakers you have are very good and it would be rolling very expensive dice to shell out for something that sounded good to you on the mainland in a totally different room and system. Hope you make the right decision though.
I’m a big believer in physics and can’t see (or hear) how the X3s go very deep, but I failed to mention that I have a VMPS Larger sub driven by Crown K2, so deep bass is not an issue. Will try and have listen in Fla.
In my room, I estimate the -6dB point of my X3s is around 35Hz. That’s with about 3’ between the speakers rears and the wall. The X3 specs are misleading because the woofers are quoted as 4.5” units, but that’s their actual cone diameter. Most manufacturer’s claimed woofer sizes are the diameter of the entire driver to include the surround and frame. So the “4.5 inch” Børresen units would actually be considered 5.5 or 6” woofers by typical convention. For example, the “7 inch” Seas woofers in my Tyler standmounts have only a 1” larger diameter than the Borresen units. One also has to consider that a woofer can create deep, powerful bass with either surface area or cone excursion. The Børresens have a good amount of linear excursion for their size. I would say they produce at least as much bass output as a typical medium floorstander fitted with either a single 10” woofer or two 6.5” woofers. The bass extension is plenty low for most music.
Regarding your somewhat vintage 801s, they perform really well on paper, arguably better than the newest 800 series. They were certainly more linear (though linearity isn’t everything), and it seems many prefer the older 800s to the newest line. IME, it’s not uncommon for a good 25-year-old design to compete well against newer models, adjusting for inflation (and then some). I haven’t heard your speakers so cannot say whether speakers like the X3s would be a worthy upgrade if an upgrade at all. I have auditioned a couple of the D4 800 series B&Ws, compared to those, I think the X3s give them a run for the money. I think B&W’s current diamond tweeter produces a hair more extension on top, but the Børresen tweeter is completely non-fatiguing and equally “fast.” I find the midrange sounds pretty similar between the two brands. Both manage nice bass definition as well. The D4 series might be the preferable choice if wall proximity is a concern.
But truthfully, if you were to go out and audition half a dozen options between $10 and $15K/pair, and conclude you should just keep what you have, that wouldn’t surprise me at all.
@OP - You might want to give some thought to an alternative option, namely Theoretica's Bacch4Mac sound processing system. It is The Absolute Sound 's 2024 product of the year:
I bring this up because there's a fair chance that you can get what you want (dynamic) with the 801's that you like so much. Theoretica allows you to install and try it out for 14 days. Return it if it doesn't fit the bill. Personally, I would recommend the Bacch system no matter what speakers you end up with. Best of luck.
What are you looking to experience with the speaker change? What are you missing or looking for? Depending on your rooms acoustics and space you may find one brand or style better suited. Not to mention your equipment pairing.
I have the Wilson’s in one system and Legacy Focus SE’s in another system, both about a year old and find them more dynamic and engaging than my 25+ year old is B&W 801’s.
You may also want to consider a Sub or two depending on what you find.
Go hit a few stores on the east coast if you can and if a store can set up various speakers you can a/b test.
the Speaker Shop in Buffalo NY carries many brands as well as Audio Classics in Binghamton Ny who is also a great McIntosh dealer
Good speakers are Gawd-awful expensive. Because you are bi-amping already, I recommend that instead of taking out a 2nd mortgage to buy new speakers and having to figure out who you can dump your old ones on, get yourself a miniDSP DDRC24 active crossover, with DSP EQ, along with the measurement mike they have. The DDRC24 includes the Dirac DSP EQ system. Measure your system in your room and then you can have Dirac create a custom EQ filter for your room. The difference is incredible. The whole thing will cost you hundreds of dollars, not thousands.
I'd certainly look at Joseph Audio, Pulsar 2 Graphene for standmounts $10,000, or Perspective 2 Graphene for floorstanders $17,000. The only brand of speakers that most will agree are amazing speakers for their price point.
Sonus Faber, but I can't recommend models
Volti Luceras, horn loaded and super dynamic, on my final list for my next upgrade along with the Joseph Audio
Like others here, another vote for Rockport if you can afford them, which i cannot--they are my win the lottery speakers--having heard several versions on multiple occasions i have yet to hear a better speaker at any price and they would easily surpass your current B&Ws. Did you mention a budget? If so i missed it--but the speakers you listed are pretty far apart in price range. i assumed since you mentioned Sasha that Rockport could be in the picture...happy listening.
That’s the thing. I can experiment with things like DACs and bring them back and forth in my carry on. Speakers not so much.
Maybe I should just get a killer DAC and be done with it 🤓
Seems many audiophiles share this sentiment. Unfortunately, it leads to them owning a poorly skewed system in which the DAC, source, and often, even the amplification, far outclass the performance of the speakers. This isn’t to say they don’t hear a difference or achieve some improvement. It’s just that the improvement/difference is often minuscule relative to the same money otherwise invested into a speaker upgrade.
It would probably have the heads of some here doing 360°s to know that I use a $400 DAC in my system that’s anchored by the $11K X3s. I know many would claim the DAC is a bottleneck in my system—understandable logic. However, after owning a couple dozen DACs and ≈40 pair of speakers over the last decade, I have zero doubt that my X3s are still a bigger bottleneck than most DACs, including my $400 Topping E70. I would rather invest $20K into a speaker upgrade than invest $2K in a DAC “upgrade.”
It’s a rather unfortunate reality that speakers and the room they’re within, account for 75% of a system’s sound quality, that is if the system’s primary source is not a turntable. Probably 20% of the remaining 25% is the speaker—amp synergy.
DACs have been a mature technology for the last decade or so. Back in 2013, you had to spend about $3K on a DAC to get 21-bit resolution, perfect linearity, and great load tolerance. These days the same performance can be had for $250. Now the boutique manufacturers are mostly going the opposite direction of objective performance, just so their products can sound different and more easily capitalize on the same cognitive biases that have succeeded so well for the cable industry.
I know a lot of people speak negatively about Wilson Audio, but I haven’t had a bad experience with the brand and my Sabrina X speakers will play just about any level of fidelity based on the electronics and cables. I’ve been shocked at the differences I’ve heard with different components, etc.
The Marten Oscar Trio speakers are clean and airy sounding speakers. I listened to them for hours at my buddies house yesterday and at the dealer a few years ago. Very impressive speaker and my buddy chose them over the Borresen X2’s after hearing the Marten Oscar Trio. You know it’s all subjective, so you have to hear the speakers for yourself. It’s just my recommendation based on what I’ve heard over the years.
Room treatments are the most important for me. Sometimes we continue to swap out gear and the room is the issue.
I agree with DBT. Had Wilson Sabrina, now Sasha V. Slightly biased as they're sourced with a tube integrated, Rose 130 and a Musical Fidelity NuVista DAC.
You can play with cable with someone like the Cable Co with a loaning library.
And nothing wrong with vintage - have a second system with a vintage Teresonic with GE 211's and Focal Utopia Eco standmountmounts.
Here’s reality in my view. No one knows your room, your gear and most importantly, your ears and personal sonic biases. So regardless of all the well intentioned input and advice, your choice (absent an in home audition before purchase) is still an absolute shot in the dark.
So it begs the question. If you like what you have, why are considering a change and what are your expectations if you decide to proceed with the change? A different speaker will sound different but not necessarily better. "Older" does not imply substandard or inadequate. Unless you have an absolutely compelling reason to "take the leap", don’t do it. Enjoy what you have (as you apparently have for numerous years) and enjoy the music. Common sense is often underated these days. Good luck.
@ritter06Given that you are scientific, I would suggest considering the KEF Reference range. I have been absolutely blown away by the Reference 1 when compared with Focal and B&W costing several times as much.
The basic scientific reason is that the tweeter and midrange are concentric and emulate a point source.
This means that both the direct sound and reflected sounds are coherent, especially in the cross-over region, whereas separated drivers interfere. Sure, careful time-alignment and clamping your head in a sweet-spot help, but there will be cancellations and reinforcements in the floor, wall and ceiling reflections.
There are lots of other subtleties which KEF detail in their 40-page White Paper. I have never seen anything that technical from B&W.
Thanks. I do have a pair of KEF LS50 and matching sub in another room in sub optimal setting just for TV. I’m impressed by the SQ for the size, build and price. They sound good on their own but playing the same piece through the 801s, you realize what you are missing. A lot. I did seriously wonder about the R11s but heard the R7s at a shop (my music) and was less than impressed.
But I am believer in co-incident speaker designs and used to have a pair of 15” Tannoy Reds that had ridiculous output and slam- perfect speaker when in your 20’s
couple things come to mind. A Great pair of reference speakers like R107/2 or matrix 801's in 1990 could be had for $5-6000 and in 2024 it'll cost double that for something 10 years old that's audibly superior and you/we still have to shake that sound that became so familiar after so many years, I ended coming back to the brand of the model I originally had for 25 years because I got used to the balance so they just sound right to me,
Ritter, today there are a wider variety of materials used for drivers. CAD has gotten far more sophisticated. And the biggest change you can make when swapping out speakers is to go for something with a wildly different design theory. Vandersteen only uses first-order crossovers, to lower or eliminate phase error (I can't listen to speakers like Focal myself because of their steep crossovers, they sound really unnatural to me). Some designers go with all metal drivers, others with balsa wood, silk or doped paper for their drivers to change dispersion, improve off-axis response and (again) lower or eliminated phase error as the driver moves back to its resting position. Many listeners discover that they prefer open baffle, planar, omnipolar or dipole designs.
It is definitely to your benefit to go to a few shops and listen to a variety of setups. Maybe you could make it to AXPONA next year, it would be well worth your trouble!
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