New Speakers under consideration - but I’m afraid

I meant to say WWP- not Sasha Vs.

More speakers today.

B&W 803 and 801s with Mac gear (no 802’s unfortunately). Clear and crisp with the 803’s predictably lacking in bass energy and sounded “small” probably because they were flanked by other speakers and were too close together.

801s sounded much better naturally but suffered from being too close to the wall. Overall wonderful presentation. 

In the same room were Focal Maestro Utopias which the dealer was keen to show off. They sounded wonderful but I didn’t like the pushed “on-stage” focus where the music is all around you- prefer if more in front between.

From memory, the Sasha Vs (meticulously set up) sounded best of the lot. The quickness, clarity, soundstage, tight bass and natural mids  AND amazing coherence is just such a great and compelling package. I think I’ve found my speakers.

@ritter06 - good job!  Nice assortment of speakers you’ve demoed which gave you a lot of input in deciding sonic preferences - X3s for great price/performance, Sonus Faber’s more musical presentation, and Wilson for accuracy excellence.

How different do the prior gen Wilsons sound to the latest iterations?

Very different- Wilson is at the cutting edge of high-end sonics so have been consistently designing and releasing new better transducers.  Their WP has also gone through a few upgrades before being dropped then subsequently reinstalled very recently back into Wilson’s product line. 

Nice looking system and I appreciate the offer. I leave tomorrow but will let you know when I come back.

I'm in Marietta. You are wecome to stop by and listen if you are interested.  My system is posted: 

MY SYSTEM HERE

Well I listened to some speakers (in Atlanta) today.

Borresen X3, Sonus Faber Stradivari, WIlson Sasha V and Watt Puppies.

All in different rooms and different electronics (but all excellent- Mac, D’Agostino etc.). I used known and new source material (ear candy pieces from the dealer) to audition .Summary below:

X3’s were first and sounded quite good- if unremarkable (from memory to the 801’s). Well balanced and no warts. I could live with them.

Sonus were next up. Fuller with more bass but also mid-bass murkiness to my ear. 

The Sashas sounded great. Holographic, good sound stage and transparency (my fav kind of trans). 

The Puppies were last - but not least. In fact, the best. Fantastic transparency - even more so  than the Sashas but without edge or glare. Very balanced. Great coherence. Very  ample bass. To my ear the best of the 4, although close with the V’s. 

I went back to the X3’s for fun, and just 20 seconds was enough to show they were not in the same league.

Next up the B&W 802 D4’s, but already thinking about the Puppies. How different do the prior gen Wilsons sound to the latest iterations?

I think it's safe to say that based on the rapidly rising technology curve you'll find some really compelling options that'll best your existing set. To make a direct comparison re: your B&W's vs a new pair will be tough unless you bring your electronics with you to the new speaker demo (or they give you a trial period at home) you'll never really know if the improvement is solely in the speaker section or comprised of all the parts. I'd push for a trial period at home because not only will there be differing electronics at the store you're also demoing in a completely different room than you have at home.

I just bought a new pair of Klipsch La Scala that I have paired with an MA12000 and absolutely love them. 

Good luck!

@ritter06 - I suggest you bring CDs to test speakers.

When I demoed many speakers, I used a selection of CDs to test: familiar music, piano, violins, female and male voices, trumpet, orchestra… For acoustic instruments tests, I used a CD Test discs like the Sheffield Lab test cd. During demos, I was evaluating accuracy and involvement (whether the speaker resonated with me)

Best of luck in your hunt

In terms of chamber music. you would need to switch to something like the Harbeth 40x series that are very Quad like in their ambience and ability to recreate string tone so beautifully. As for rock and other loud music stick with you've got especially since the crossovers were rebuilt( the original crossover components were severely compromised)

If you can, Buy the new speakers of choice and keep the existing set as well for a while to see if you really like the changes, You might not.

Newer designs will go for more resolution and will pry bring thin never before head ks out of the recordings.

I found Cables same line older were very listenable as they got newer got more sterile.  My 2cents.

Stay tuned (no pun). I’ll get to some shops this Fall.

Be a Man and do it...

@ritter06 thanks for the recommend on Little Dark Age, they went a little Depeche Mode-y after a quick sampling. 
Will be interested in what you end up with. I have 3 sets of older speakers, Nautilus 805’s on the factory stands, and two pairs of Thiels, the baby .5’s and 1.2’s. (The CS .5 setup is the best, but it has by far the best DAC and amp). Unlike you, I’m pretty happy with 2 out of the 3 setups and have no desire to change. Maybe I am in need of a fresh perspective. 🙂

Didn’t someone say that the only thing to fear is fear itself?

Trust your ears. 

Currently, the pre-owned gear market is mostly a buyer’s market and as such, there are some pretty good deals out there. Revel Salon 2s, Yamaha NS-5000s and Spendor Classic 100s are a few examples for which I’ve seen better than usual prices.

Just mentioning those as examples, not to suggest they would necessarily be an upgrade over your B&Ws. My point is that, given current market conditions, you might be able to save a good chunk of change once you have a better idea of what you want.

Vintage is fine but limited in performance with repairs being more likely. Within the last 10-15 years loudspeakers have vastly improved especially in the affordable segment(< $10k).

Hello ritter06,

A bit late to the party here, but your post is a very familiar scenario to me and I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I had a set of speakers for many years that were great (Totem Acoustic Wind Design) , but still was interested in considering a new set of speakers. I did not own them as long as your B&W's, but was about 8 years and I was ready to consider a new set of speakers.  I live in a smaller town in Eastern Washington so I don't have local shops to listen to high end gear. I took a 4 day weekend and drove to the Seattle, Washington area to start searching for my new set of speakers. 

I had some brands in mind, but was open minded and just wanted to set out to listen to several pairs that I had not had the opportunity to entertain in the past. B&W and Focal were some of them at the top of my list.

I can be patient and an overthinker so I really didn't anticipate having a full conclusion and driving home with a set of speakers. I also anticipated I would hear several speakers that I liked, but maybe would have a hard time choosing what set sounded best to me when hearing so many... or a day later if the ones I liked yesterday were actually what I remember and so on. 

Long story short, I drove home on day 4 with a pair of Wilson Sasha 2's. There wasn't 1% of a doubt in my mind that the Wilsons were the speakers for me and to my ears sounded superior to the rest.... black and white. I was so thankful and excited to get home and listen to them.  I listened to B&W and Focal as those brands were at the top of my list, some that exceeded the price of the Sasha's and they were too bright/fatiguing and lacked the "real" that the Wilsons offered to my ears. We all hear differently of course, so many could have the same experience and feel differently. 

Just as you, I was nervous to sell my older speakers that I loved so I kept them until the new ones were in my home and I could listen in my environment. Within 1 minute of listening, I knew the old ones would be sold. Getting out there and spending the time to listen to options in person vs. trying to rely on reviews makes me feel super solid in my decision for the long run. It was a fun experience and hope the same for you. Who knows, maybe you getting out there just verifies how great your current speakers are and puts that "bug" to rest for many years... or you find a new pair and experience a whole new tier of listening like I did. 

Word

Before doing so much focus on another speaker & gear option I suggest to make sure the acoustics of the room are optimized. I recently made a change in my room and the impact was big. 

My advice is to do if you're gonna do it. How bad do you want the best sonics? Go large on the reserve funds to get other equipment after the speakers.

Good luck with your demos. Hopefully, there are some good options that you can audition in a proper setup.

When I got into this crazy hobby, there was a dealer with lots of options in every budget category. I didn't have a lot of money at the time, but he still spent time with me and discounted things to help me out. I miss that guy. 

Yes GIK on the walls, ceiling and bass traps in the corners. Even my 20 something kids wonder about it, but not after I play something they really know and like. MGMT’s Little Dark Age is a fabulous recording (CD).

@ritter06 - excellent plan.  Always best to try a component in one's own system if one can afford to do so.  I'm assuming you already have proper sonic room treatments?

I have a plan. I'll go listen to some speakers. Make a decision and assuming I like something I'll get them.

I have a buyer for my 801s- I won't hand them over until I get the new ones installed and prefer them after a side by side comparison. If they sound as good or better, I keep them.

Worst case I sell the new ones (I'll try to find them used to avoid the max depreciation hit).

I agree the KEF LS50s are awesome speakers for the money, which is why they are a stand-out in their price range.  I listen to a pair most days, at my partner's place.

The KEF Reference series are 10 to 30 times as expensive, and in my opinion are even better value!  So obviously I think my Reference 1 speakers are good.  The same coincident tweeter / mid-range unit is used in the Reference range.  The more expensive, the more bass drivers you get, which is not necessarily a good thing for overall coherence.

On the other hand, achieving sonic bliss is fantastic for an audiophile.

The question is: “Which is stronger, the Carrot or the Stick?”

Especially is you are a member of the "enemy within" crowd. The fear may be very real depending on the outcome of 11/ 5.

Fear......fear....is it real.

First world problems!

@ritter06 - no easy solutions.

1. We cannot tell you what you’ll subjectively like
2. We cannot predict if it’ll work synergistically your other components and/or room

We all have to try/risk for ourselves.

One could try to mitigate the risk by purchasing known synergistically matching amp+speaker combos like Harbeth+Hegel. Or if you find a Demo speaker you like, purchased the speaker and matching electronics. Or, by purchasing sonically neutral speakers transparent to the other audio chain components. And if buying used can resell at minimal cash loss.

In an ideal world, it would be great to have sonic guarantees considering the significant cash outlay and the trouble of changing components. Unfortunately, high-end audio doesn’t grant us this convenience- we all have to struggle our way towards sonic bliss.

Decisions become a lot harder if the budget is very limited or changing the components is very inconvenient. That’s the hobby we’re in

Ritter, today there are a wider variety of materials used for drivers. CAD has gotten far more sophisticated. And the biggest change you can make when swapping out speakers is to go for something with a wildly different design theory.  Vandersteen only uses first-order crossovers, to lower or eliminate phase error (I can't listen to speakers like Focal myself because of their steep crossovers, they sound really unnatural to me). Some designers go with all metal drivers, others with balsa wood, silk or doped paper for their drivers to change dispersion, improve off-axis response and (again) lower or eliminated phase error as the driver moves back to its resting position. Many listeners discover that they prefer open baffle, planar, omnipolar or dipole designs.

It is definitely to your benefit to go to a few shops and listen to a variety of setups. Maybe you could make it to AXPONA next year, it would be well worth your trouble!

couple things come to mind. A Great  pair of reference speakers like R107/2 or matrix 801's in 1990 could be had for $5-6000 and in 2024 it'll cost double that for something 10 years old that's audibly superior and you/we still have to shake that sound that became so familiar after so many years, I ended coming back to the brand of the model I originally had for 25 years because I got used to the balance so they just sound right to me, 

Thanks. I do have a pair of KEF LS50 and matching sub in another room in sub optimal setting just for TV. I’m impressed by the SQ for the size, build and price. They sound good on their own but playing the same piece through the 801s, you realize what you are missing. A lot. I did seriously  wonder about the R11s but heard the R7s at a shop (my music) and was less than impressed.

But I am believer in co-incident speaker designs and used to have a pair of 15” Tannoy Reds that had ridiculous output and slam- perfect speaker when in your 20’s

@ritter06 Given that you are scientific, I would suggest considering the KEF Reference range.  I have been absolutely blown away by the Reference 1 when compared with Focal and B&W costing several times as much.

The basic scientific reason is that the tweeter and midrange are concentric and emulate a point source. 

This means that both the direct sound and reflected sounds are coherent, especially in the cross-over region, whereas separated drivers interfere.  Sure, careful time-alignment and clamping your head in a sweet-spot help, but there will be cancellations and reinforcements in the floor, wall and ceiling reflections.

There are lots of other subtleties which KEF detail in their 40-page White Paper.  I have never seen anything that technical from B&W.

Here’s reality in my view. No one knows your room, your gear and most importantly, your ears and personal sonic biases. So regardless of all the well intentioned input and advice, your choice (absent an in home audition before purchase) is still an absolute shot in the dark.

So it begs the question. If you like what you have, why are considering a change and what are your expectations if you decide to proceed with the change? A different speaker will sound different but not necessarily better. "Older" does not imply substandard or inadequate. Unless you have an absolutely compelling reason to "take the leap", don’t do it. Enjoy what you have (as you apparently have for numerous years) and enjoy the music. Common sense is often underated these days. Good luck.

As I’ve explained above, in-home audition is not possible, hence the enquiry here.

You could tell me that you owned 801s (S2 Mk III) and moved to brand X and found them a significant overall improvement. But only if it’s true.

Btw- I’ve lived in Bahamas for over 20 yrs in climate controlled environment (but still had re-cone 3 or 4 drivers- not bad I’d say). 

There is no substitute to auditioning prospects and then deciding.

Best done in your own home, with your equipment.

I don't know what else to tell you.

Certainly the most personal part of the system.

I agree with DBT.  Had Wilson Sabrina, now Sasha V.  Slightly biased as they're sourced with a tube integrated, Rose 130 and a Musical Fidelity NuVista DAC.

You can play with cable with someone like the Cable Co with a loaning library.

And nothing wrong with vintage - have a second system with a vintage Teresonic with GE 211's and Focal Utopia Eco standmountmounts.

AN

@ritter06 I recommended following speakers;

1. Wilson Audio Sasha DAW (highly recommended)

2. Marten Oscar Trio (highly recommended)

I know a lot of people speak negatively about Wilson Audio, but I haven’t had a bad experience with the brand and my Sabrina X speakers will play just about any level of fidelity based on the electronics and cables.  I’ve been shocked at the differences I’ve heard with different components, etc.  

The Marten Oscar Trio speakers are clean and airy sounding speakers.  I listened to them for hours at my buddies house yesterday and at the dealer a few years ago.  Very impressive speaker and my buddy chose them over the Borresen X2’s after hearing the Marten Oscar Trio.  You know it’s all subjective, so you have to hear the speakers for yourself.  It’s just my recommendation based on what I’ve heard over the years.

Room treatments are the most important for me.  Sometimes we continue to swap out gear and the room is the issue.

Godspeed to you!

That’s the thing. I can experiment with things like DACs and bring them back and forth in my carry on. Speakers not so much.

Maybe I should just get a killer DAC and be done with it 🤓

Seems many audiophiles share this sentiment. Unfortunately, it leads to them owning a poorly skewed system in which the DAC, source, and often, even the amplification, far outclass the performance of the speakers. This isn’t to say they don’t hear a difference or achieve some improvement. It’s just that the improvement/difference is often minuscule relative to the same money otherwise invested into a speaker upgrade.

It would probably have the heads of some here doing 360°s to know that I use a $400 DAC in my system that’s anchored by the $11K X3s. I know many would claim the DAC is a bottleneck in my system—understandable logic. However, after owning a couple dozen DACs and ≈40 pair of speakers over the last decade, I have zero doubt that my X3s are still a bigger bottleneck than most DACs, including my $400 Topping E70. I would rather invest $20K into a speaker upgrade than invest $2K in a DAC “upgrade.”

It’s a rather unfortunate reality that speakers and the room they’re within, account for 75% of a system’s sound quality, that is if the system’s primary source is not a turntable. Probably 20% of the remaining 25% is the speaker—amp synergy.

DACs have been a mature technology for the last decade or so. Back in 2013, you had to spend about $3K on a DAC to get 21-bit resolution, perfect linearity, and great load tolerance. These days the same performance can be had for $250. Now the boutique manufacturers are mostly going the opposite direction of objective performance, just so their products can sound different and more easily capitalize on the same cognitive biases that have succeeded so well for the cable industry.

Like others here, another vote for Rockport if you can afford them, which i cannot--they are my win the lottery speakers--having heard several versions on multiple occasions i have yet to hear a better speaker at any price and they would easily surpass your current B&Ws.  Did you mention a budget?  If so i missed it--but the speakers you listed are pretty far apart in price range.  i assumed since you mentioned Sasha that Rockport could be in the picture...happy listening.

I lived in Barbados for a year.  Consider how humidity can affect the speakers and their sound.   

I'd certainly look at Joseph Audio, Pulsar 2 Graphene for standmounts $10,000, or Perspective 2 Graphene for floorstanders $17,000. The only brand of speakers that most will agree are amazing speakers for their price point.

Sonus Faber, but I can't recommend models

Volti Luceras, horn loaded and super dynamic, on my final list for my next upgrade along with the Joseph Audio

Good speakers are Gawd-awful expensive.  Because you are bi-amping already, I recommend that instead of taking out a 2nd mortgage to buy new speakers and having to figure out who you can dump your old ones on, get yourself a miniDSP DDRC24 active crossover, with DSP EQ, along with the measurement mike they have.  The DDRC24 includes the Dirac DSP EQ system.  Measure your system in your room and then you can have Dirac create a custom EQ filter for your room.  The difference is incredible.  The whole thing will cost  you hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

TAD E2.

What are you looking to experience with the speaker change? What are you missing or looking for? Depending on your rooms acoustics and space you may find one brand or style better suited. Not to mention your equipment pairing. 
I have the Wilson’s in one system and Legacy Focus SE’s in another system, both about a year old and find them more dynamic and engaging than my 25+ year old is B&W 801’s. 
You may also want to consider a Sub or two depending on what you find. 

Go hit a few stores on the east coast if you can and if a store can set up various speakers you can a/b test. 
the Speaker Shop in Buffalo NY carries many brands as well as Audio Classics in Binghamton Ny who is also a great McIntosh dealer 

@OP - You might want to give some thought to an alternative option, namely Theoretica's Bacch4Mac sound processing system.  It is The Absolute Sound 's 2024 product of the year:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xq48klNJ8i0

Here is Steve Guttenberg's review: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ484SKyOA

I bring this up because there's a fair chance that you can get what you want (dynamic) with the 801's that you like so much.  Theoretica allows you to install and try it out for 14 days.  Return it if it doesn't fit the bill.  Personally, I would recommend the Bacch system no matter what speakers you end up with.  Best of luck.

Not true , I am semi retired and go to many Audio meets in the north east 

the mk4 is much better in several areas drivers improved in several areas 

and Xover for sure much better I have heard them side by side 

 My good friend sells B&W and gives very respectable deals 

I cannot say online send me a email.