Your sub experience: Easy or hard?

One Rythmik F12G in between Maggie MMGs.  I recently added a small Miller & Kreisel K-9 in the corner opposite the Rythmik just to flesh out the sound throughout the room (it has one side open to the kitchen/dining room).   Only adjustment was to the phase control - it now melds very nicely with the entire system and is literally two feet from my listening position.  I get no localization from it. 

So..............neither sub was hard to integrate. 

I've been using my Hsu sub for more than 20 years. I stick it in the corner and don' t turn it up too loud. It ain't that hard. 

I've run REL s/510 SHO with focal Sopra 2, Harbeth 30.2 and Harbeth SHLs 5 with generally good results in a purpose built room about 13x22. I then changed to a JL 113v2 and the JL crossover, CR-1 and now run this with Wilson Sabrina, crossed over at 60 hz. This set up is the best so far, very seamless integration due to both the JL's auto DSP room tuning and the flexibility of the CR1. I also use GIK room treatment and bass absorbers. The bass is subtle and tuneful, no boom. Roon also provides another means of EQ on the fly btw. I think most times subs get set to be too loud and then can border on being perceived as boomy. 

Trying to integrate one was very difficult. Never blended right and never sounded balanced to me. But integrating two was much easier and sounded great. I settled on line-level with a cable from amp speaker taps to a powered subwoofer for each of the two channels. 

Just a quick note to everyone.

Thank you very much for sharing your insights and staying (mostly) on topic.

Erik

According to my experience the choice of a sub (or more than one) depends also very much on your room and its acoustics - and, of course, on the quality of the components in your stereo system (low, middle, consumer, high end). 

I assume nobody out there knows or remembers the make of the sub I use: Acustik-Lab Stella Novus (originally spelled name), a Swiss made component which was very in demand in Asia in its time (and very costly, unfortunately). It allows settings in many ways, which was prior to today's DSP. (The company no longer exists.) So my favorite crossover setting  is 42 Hz...quite discreet. 

Set-up was quite easy, and I needed just some days to find the right listening setting (for me). As another A'goner wrote, the recordings (LP & CD) vary, and depending on that I am able to adjust the sub's settings (by remote control). 

Started off with one, added another shortly thereafter with good success and a bit of trial and error.

It is essential that you choose a sub or subs with room correction for best results, if you do not otherwise already have RC elsewhere in your system at present. It is very effective at aiding in the integration process, especially one with an infinitely variable X-over point.

I have two JL Fathom v1 13’s and use a DBX Venue Driverack 360 to integrate them into my system.  It has on the fly gain, phase control, delay, subharmonic extension, frequency slope adjustment and more.  I was constantly experimenting with adjustments and still am, but having on the fly adjustment is great.  Some of the best producers and engineers rolled the highs, as well as the lower end off and ruined good recordings.  Classical and some Country, as well as other genres have been consistent in having well produced recordings, but as I said, too many rolled the best part of the recording off.  It’s hard to add what was never there, but the DBX unit does a good job compensating.  

I bought a used  REL SHO S/3 to add to my Magnepan's 1.7i and used this video to set it up and get dialed in: REL setup

It absolutely blew my mind, how better my system sounded, highly recommend. If you have a Magnepan, get a REL.

Away from the corner, closer to the speaker and closer to the side wall facing the listening position or on the room diagonal.

We have just published our new white paper on this topic "Subwoofer Integration for Stereo Systems for miniDSP, REW and Dirac Live"

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer.

I have a sub system that was not very popular when released 30-ish years ago, the Hsu Research TN 1225/Model 500 amp.  Dr. Hsu is a passionate engineer for subwoofers.  This passive system has the 500 watt amp that can run two of the 12in drivers in parallel.  They are a cylindrical tube with basically that 12in footprint so makes placement fairly easy.  Only needing to run a speaker wire also helps matters.  I was able to integrate these with my Wilson Sophia running full range beautifully.  I have the subs cut off at 43Hz and they are 100% invisible, one in the front to the left and one behind to the right.  This was the only position I had and thankfully worked.  My room is the front room of my house so very limiting on placement.  Not sure if any mfg offers a similar passive system nowadays but this design has really worked well for musical bass with zero boom that I have heard so much from traditional powered boxes. 

It was a challenge to get well tuned integrated bass in my 2 channel room. They are not not a smart subs a pair of VMPS Larger Subs, so I had to figure out optimal placement, crossover points and levels. Room Eq Wizard was a huge help in integrating, along with taking my time, and enjoying the process. That said, just getting REW setup if you are not familiar is a bit of a pain. In my home theater room with my SVS Sub it was fairly straight forward.

I use the REL Stentor III and I've also used their Stadium model. Both use a Speakon connection to my amplifier's output taps, along with my regular speakers. Integration has always been easy and seamless, as the amp sends only a small signal to the sub. There is an "overlap" of some of the higher bass frequencies, but I believe this contributes to the seamless integration I enjoy. I control the crossover point and the volume, and the placement on this "sub-bass" is typically where it provides the strongest signal. This is often the opposite placement as for traditional subs, and it's perfect for fitting it into a non-dedicated room: against a wall, or even in a corner is perfect.

I integrated four SVS SB16 Ultras with LaScalas, phase aligned and EQ'd using REW in three or four hours.  There was a bit of a learning curve with REW so I think I could do it much quicker a second time. 

It was hard until I got some furniture sliders.

I use a single REL SHO S/5 in a very irregular room, H/W/L all vary. By necessity set up is behind the tv and took only a few tries for great sound. Close to the wall and aimed to a 45 degree fireplace two feet away. Here’s the bizarre part. Just last week I experimented with rotating the speakers for zero toe in, same position. No bass. Cranking the sub produced nothing but distortion. Weird. Toed them back in and all is well.

Piece of cake integrating Hsu VTF-2 Mk 4 with Eminent Technology ET 8.and in my TV system with JBL Hartsfield.

As well as plumbing the depths, the sub will benefit yr system by relieving yr mains of lower octave duties. Yr mains will play more relaxed and bloom. 

Hsu no longer makes the VTF-2 which had a downward firing 12 inch driver. I preferred it to a forward firing Hsu with 15 inch driver. e.g. on Kill Bill Vol. 1 you can feel the head as it hits the table. And I do mean feel.

I have 2 rel s/510s. They’re magnificent but with better bass comes the need for battling room resonance. Also, the loudness of the bass from track to track can be all over the place. I wish I had remote volume controls on them.

Much easier with two than with only one, and also much more noticeable sonic improvement with two.  I would like to try three or four.

We can assemble the modules of the ISS built in different countries and assembled in space with success. We can have a “relationship” through AI. We can pinpoint and “paint” targets for invisible air strikes. 
Why in the heck can’t someone figure out an intelligent sub that can adjust volume as needed per recording?

REL subwoofers are different.  Their high-level connection allows them to play more as woofers.  You also need to add a pair and at least start with their SHO series.  Then make sure not to play them with over a 40% volume and dial things in to make sure they blend in.  Bass fall off with volume and you will notice is you are able to play you system with lower volumes and still hear bass.

Easy. This system was easier the previous. Full range towers are way easier then standmounts. Just filling in the low low. I listen to lots of bass heavy music and the sub is a must. RTJ3 on vinyl as I write this. The sub disappears. Blends seamlessly and provides a more visceral experience at low listening levels. Took 30 minutes to find the correct placement and another few listening sessions to pin down the crossover and level. Easy peezy.

Moderate: Stereo pair, locate near mains, phase 0. Took some time and effort listening to a variety of music to get the gain and crossover dialed in. 

Easiest and most significant impact to SQ, to date. Started with a single REL Carbon Special. Returned it because I had to keep adjusting the gain. I could not find a one size fits all setting for my exacting taste. I tried a REL 212SX next and I barely had to touch the crossover and gain controls. It was dialed-in within a few diverse tracks. Now I own a pair of 212SX and will never live without subs again. I have towed one of my 212s to audiophile friend’s homes and blew them away with the improved mids and overall depth of stage. These are friends with Wilson Sasha DAW, Dynaudio Confidence 60 and Focal Scala Utopia EVO. Subs were a definitive lesson for me and my circle. I saved a ton of money and chose a smaller main speaker there is no argument I am missing anything compared to any other system I’ve heard with speakers costing way more than my subs and mains combined. If you did not hear it above, a single 212 was basically plug and play. No joke. A pair are heaven in my room.

Gotta point out that choice of sub used is key. The right sub is one that is designed to supplement your mains as needed. If monitors with limited extension you might get away with a smaller sub needed to fill in the low end well. If larger near full range speakers you will need a bigger more extended sub to do that. Room size also matters. The bigger the room the bigger the sub needed. Sub should have level and roll off adjustments at minimum. Phase is a big help for placement flexibility. Very important to look at sub frequency response specs to identify good candidates. It’s almost always about filling in the missing low end. So be sure to lock the right solution for the problem which is different case by case. From there it is not hard. Otherwise, may be impossible.   To get good bass more consistently across the room multiple subs might be needed.  For just the “sweet spot” just one may do fine.  Gotta have the right overall integrated design to start.  I suppose that part can be somewhat hard. Good luck !

Great topic. 

I have been running 2 REL T9is for a few years.  Setup, now, is a breeze.  I could turn them off and reset them and have them integrated again in 15-20 minutes or so. At first, however, I had trouble because I kept fussing with them.  As I gained more experience, I picked up more intuition and my ear got better trained. 

Disclaimer--I only use them to bring out the lower octave or so. I have them tuned so they are not particularly audible.  

The difference with the subs is remarkable and I would never go back to not using them in this setup. 

I'm running two JL Audio F110s with auto room optimization, which is the main reason I say sub setup is very easy. The JLs are active and non-ported so they work pretty much anywhere I put them. The ARO adjusts for room modes. I also run a JL Audio CR1 active crossover to set the LPF & HPF, which I think is also a reason why my subs are so easy to integrate. My speakers are Magico Mini MkII, which sound great on their own but the subs add a lot of dimensionality and grip. 10/10 would recommend. 

If was difficult at first. I tried to follow the manufacturer’s suggestion in the beginning which was a good starting point, but once I started listening to what pleased me sonically that’s when the magic happened for me. Everything became enhanced highs, mids, and of course bass. 
 

Good question, Erik. 
 

Best regards,

East

Two Hsu subwoofers - using one to handle 90hz and below with Quad ESL63s and a smaller one in my recording studio/office with JBL 4401 monitors (old school).  Very easy integration. Both sound great. Transition between the mains and subs can’t be heard. And taking the low end load off the ESLs opened them up even more and lets me push them a little harder, when needed. 

My only sub in the main system is a dual side-firing Tannoy, effectively two subs in one box. Tower speaker mfr says DO NOT high-pass; allow the mains to run full range. These are rated to 22Hz but have a peak at 35 and roll off pretty steeply below 31. So I set the sub crossover at 31Hz, rolling off at -12dB/octave above that. Basically you're only conscious of the sub with tones in Octave 0. Above that the contribution is so subtle you would notice it only by its absence.

Now, as to placement, I can move sub around using a carpet scrap on a slick wood floor. The dual side firing design seems to integrate best when placed between and a bit behind the mains. Maybe some day I will have time for more experimentation with settings and placement using good test recordings. Room configuration rules out the sub array, so need to simply fine-tune what I've got. Overall, though? Definitely worth the effort as deep bass is very important to me.

Not likely I can add much other than a brand that hasn't yet been mentioned: the NHT SubOne. Besides sounding clean and tight, it has a very useful "controller" that sits on top (or can be placed in your rack) that controls volume and has a switch for "Flat" and "Video Contour" (the latter for movies, obviously). It's in my main two-channel music system, so it's set on "Flat." Most importantly, it has lots of ways of connecting, including both high pass and low pass filters, and, of course, a phase switch. I use the high pass option, sending everything above 50 Hz to the mains. I've found that locating it to the side of the mains, and facing ("firing") across the sound field, helps a lot with integration. The result is a perfectly natural bass that goes considerably lower than the mains alone without ever sounding boomy. Rock has real punch while acoustic cellos and basses just sound vital and real, not exaggerated.

My 10 year old Velodyne 12" sub came with an onscreen setup guide with an equalizer, so flattening out the high and low freq's also smoothed out the response. Sounds qreat with my Maggie 3.7's placed facing sweet spot from between speakers.

I have a McIntosh home theatre processor and a 250 watt per channel McIntosh amp into Klipsch La Scala speakers.  I use one SVS 2000 sub, located in a cabinet behind the right front speaker, which "vents" though what appears to be an air conditioning vent, but serves only the sub-woofer.  It remains on constantly.  I adjusted it once, during installation, with the free iPhone app, and have not touched it since.  It has worked flawlessly.  I do not notice it during streamed music, and it no doubt helps the La Scala's, which have a relatively high bass drop-off.  All speakers are "invisible."  I know it is there when, during movies, I get a big bass bang.  I have concluded that I do not need a second sub in the system.

Two houses ago I had two Velodyne 12” subs and I NEVER thought that I had them setup perfectly. Now I have a SVS 2000Pro and the software is very helpful, but for my listening ( Bill Evans Diana Krall Jerry Garcia) I seem to forget to turn it on.

All the best.

JD

I spent pretty significant time setting up my sub, but it was a labor of love. For reference,  I spent even more time setting up my analog front end--an ongoing exercise, and even more time than that finding the correct placement for my main speakers.

Magico ASub not A1 Sub, sorry. Being used with A5’s.

I put the subs between my speakers pointing them toward the wall.  Sat there for 20 yrs.  Then I  retired and started revisiting  my music setup.  Bought some bass traps and put springs under subs.  Before this the bass was boomier with standing waves.  Now the bass is rich, deep and much more satisfying.   I use a electronic crossover set at 100 Hz.  Adjusting the main speaker and sub levels is easy.  The bass sounds the same throughout the room.

Hi All,

My experience with a Magico A1 Sub has been a 2 year nightmare! Software, downloads, microphone etc… I have had better luck with my $650 Klipsch sub from my AV system. 2 years, hours of my time and thousands of dollars later, it has become a dust collector at best. Can anyone out there help? Thanks!

I am surprised that the MJ Acoustics subs aren't more popular. Once you decide on placement, everything else (gain, x-over, phase etc) are all adjustable by a small remote. Made it very easy to integrate into my system all by myself. 

I have a single REL T5i accompanying a pair of Janszen P8's.

Integration was pretty easy.

The T5i (8" down-firing) is about the smallest sub I could use and still make a difference. With room-coupling, it's enough to level out the frequency response from about 10hz to 35hz.  I used REW (frequency response analyzer) to help find a good location.  

I tried a much larger , more expensive REL sub but returned it.  I found it a little overwhelming.  It did not seem to make the system sound better overall and was too heavy to move around easily by myself.  Still, I'd like to try one of the smaller Rhythmik subs, just to see if something larger could pressurize the room better without adding distortion.

Easy (REL S/510).  Suggested corner position? Nope.  Put sub in listening position, crawl around, find optimal, set level and crossover.  Enjoy.

I use two Velodyne HGS-15s in the front corners with an SMS-1 acoustic bass manager that makes integrating them pretty easy.  The surprise for me was a third HGS-15 in a back corner that takes LFE from a Bryston SP3.  It's not used for music, but often adds an interesting effect for HT.

db 

I don’t have much experience with subwoofers so my contribution may be worthless. Easy or hard? I suppose the question is closely correlated to expectations? To me, proper integration means the sub blends rather seamlessly with the main speakers and nothing sticks out like a sore thumb. I don’t know, but for a seamless integration the impact of the sub is usually small so as nothing sticks out like a sore thumb. A small but appreciable difference. In my case, I would say easy but as mentioned above, the impact of the sub in my system is not very significant or earth shattering.

I’m still trying to figure out if a superior sub will bring a more significant difference to the system, and whether the integration of the sub will be equally easy or require more effort. I will soon find that out..

I have a cheaper sub (Gallo Acoustics TR3) which I enjoyed setting up with my Spendor D7.2s. Before that I just didn’t have the low end in the room, with the sub it filled out the sound how I like it. Took a few days of moving it around, getting up repeatedly to change settings etc, but I am now very happy with it and feel it is as well integrated as it could be. From this experience I wondered what a better sub could do and auditioned a REL S/510 at a dealer with my same speakers, I spent a whole 2 hours trying to get it to integrate and couldn’t, it was always too present. This was even having the gain close to its lowest setting, it just sounded so boomy. It was very frustrating as I thought a better sub would enhance my system but perhaps it was too much sub despite RELs website recommending it. I also wondered if the dealer had set it up wrong given I could barely turn up the gain without it booming through the room. So I’ve had a mixed experience, however in my current system I love my subs integration and wouldn’t be without it.

In my experience it depends on the sub and speakers. I have an svs sb16 ultra. It was easier with my klipsch than it was with my tekton's. The tekton's go lower so I had a flatspot in the low midrange so it took a bit of work to fix it.

I don't think there's a standard answer. It depends on

1. The size of your room.

2. Room treatments.

3. The size (lower frequency extent) of you main speakers.

4. Your requirements, whether it be gentle underpinning or thumping bass.

In my case my room is treated and my main speakers go down to about 70Hz 

I prefer gentle underpinning, and with the main speakers disconnected I adjust so I can barely hear mail vocals. Dead easy

very very easy with  lyngdorf amp 😁

Recently traded out my older REL T2 for two smaller REL T5x's paired with B&W 805 bookshelf speakers.  Significant sound stage improvement and separation, plus a more balanced low end.  It does take a little time and effort to get the integration right, but the results are worth the effort.  Plus it is fun to do. You will be able to do this.  PS wife walked into the room once setup and said I hate to say it, but it does sound better.  No finer praise indeed. 

I’d say it was maybe a 7 on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the most difficult. Difficult in terms of finding the best placement for sound quality and aesthetics. I think I found the best setup for the room I have them in. I could probably spend more time but I have them dialed in pretty good right now. They really disappear and were definitely worth the time integrating them in. 

With a high pass crossover it was very easy in multiple rooms and systems. Without it , it was very hard and honestly never right.