i've owned a few DACS. worked my way up to the PS Audio DirectStream.
happy as a pig in slop. my search is over.
The DAC Scam - Almost everyone believes the hype
Over many decades I have owned my share of multi-thousand dollar dacs.My current is my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5, which I have owned for ~ 4 years. I have made many changes to my system, including cables and it has shined a light on every one, so I tend to agree with the YTV . Your thoughts?
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@donavabdear do you have the avid MTRX DA conversion from DAD? That one’s actually terrible especially for the price
@jasonbourne71 i’m sure some part of you has good intentions, but you’re coming across as a tool. and you’re factually wrong As is this video, which we apparently have all suffered through Just more Clickbait in the attention economy. Anyone can call themselves a mastering engineer these days, but if we had a club, this guy would have his card revoked for putting out very bad information Yes of course the chips are all good since the 90s, and it’s not relevant what matters most is the analog stage, the clock, and the filtering, which in high-end situations is done off the chip, in cheaper situations the chip does the filtering
The thing about cost is that it doesn’t always equal quality, but it generally points you in a good direction if you’re dealing with a reputable company and it costs a lot of money to make incremental changes when you’re already at the high end
as a mastering engineer with credentials I can guarantee you that every converter has a very distinct sound when you have a very revealing chain, a great room, etc., and at a certain point, everyone has to decide what is sufficient for them, which is very similar to the audiophile world where people are basically building a musical instrument of playback
everyone knows converter chips are cheap and have been good for a long time, everyone except the gullible people he’s trying to suck into his YouTube page, if he was actually busy being a mastering engineer, he wouldn’t have time for that page and he wouldn’t say what he’s saying
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Jason bourne71 what do you have that so great ? I can see spending maybe up to $10-$15 k is you have the funds . these are many really good dacs under $10k . I prefer just dedicated dacs much less to go wrong .I have 2 dacs that are very good the Denafrips Terminator-15 has that R2R smoothness and detailed. and a Very musical Swiss dac the Merason dac1 Mk2 which I have compared to dacs up to $15k that maybe better in some areas but not all, natural and musical not processed the Merason does in spades No DSD,,which is no big deal less then 1% of music is in hirez and not always better . |
I've seen so many of these discussions. End of day, if you can't hear a difference, you are in the wrong hobby, and you are wasting your $$. Some of us DO hear profound differences, sometimes sublime differences, and as we can afford to burn money on this hobby...we do. Discussions like these are like arguing the best flavor of ice cream, or the 'best' color. You need to listen and decide for yourself. And, I've found it best to not think about it too much or read too much into reviews. You have to listen. And, if you can't hear a difference, you are in the wrong hobby, and you are wasting your $$. |
YouTube guy’s voice grates a bit like a low-pitched chainsaw. But I stuck with it. He is not talking complete complete BS. He is not very good at math though, unless he is assuming millions of units sold to drive fixed cost per unit down to null when he extrapolates that a top-end AKM DAC should run no more than a few hundred quid despite having an excellent power supply and analog section that engineers sweated over to make sure it sounded right. Throw in a machined case and I’d put that at 1000 clams. Still a far cry from 30K though. So, like I said, not complete complete BS from him. But it is totally uncool to show any FPGA DACs in the original flurry of images if the rant is all about chip DACs. |
The guy in the YT video is a clown. I use a fpga dac that is highly rated and doesn’t have his so called common dac chips. |
Dac & wire upgrades will mostly be meaningless until you sink some cash into treatments that actually work. If you room doesn't start to look like some of these examples ...just forget it, i.e. if you are sitting in the living room and subject to divorce if the room starts to look like a high end studio, save your dac, wire, etc pennies and move on. https://youtu.be/T-ydC9IB0G8?si=LztuIx3nWU-xoQAg https://youtu.be/tKWAI21G0bc?si=lCtZXcw40hN0KAqU https://youtu.be/btLXMzAq1_A?si=V0MenTkfVoetKEC0
If you are a DIY/handy guy with construction & lumber, it will be cheaper. Even the bow wow bow wow moron in the OP's video is bound to have his pants blown off in one of my rooms... But, in whatever crap room he's sitting in with speakers stacked on pizza boxes, the realtek dac in his computer and an Aavik dac shall all sound the same, that would be his unfortunate reality, whatever... |
Like Dave and Troy said, this guy’s video only looks at the cost of some chips. You can buy those from Digikey for about $5 to $15 depending on which ones you are wanting to use. |
I have upgraded my DACs several times. I’ve listened to more than 10 in different systems. Not every one made a difference. Once I got up to about $IK they all sounded pretty good. I also found that it’s about more than the price. I have a $2K budget per DAC so not super high end equipment. My Holo Audio Cyan 2 sounds better at about $1300 than DACs that cost over $2K in my opinion with my setup. I trust my ears. |
I do agree with the video on one aspect, you don't need to spend $40,000 on a good sounding DAC. There is so much besides the chip. Like everyone has said, the power supply and output stage, etc. You also have the wiring and all the input and output jacks A designer has "tuned" the dac for certain sound characteristics. Some may prefer warm, even or brighter. Licensing DSD, MQA, etc has a cost (probably small). Designing, Testing, Assembly, shipping, packaging, marketing........distribution to dealers who need to make a buck as well. Plus, don't forget all the freebies to youtubers so they can sing the Dacs praises. All the above can add up cost wise.
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@oberoniaomnia ", I experimented with a $250 and a $5,000 DAC and preference depended on track. Differences if perceptible at all were minute at best. ....So rather consider foot print and look of the DAC than thinking one may sound better for a variety of music and recording styles. If you like audio bling, go for it, put your bespoke ethernet/USB cable on lifters. If you want to be more frugal, know that you are not missing anything with respect to audio, if that is your primary interest." So out of curiosity why then do you have a $4K+ Holo May DAC?
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There are more significant differences in recording style than DAC flavors (analytical vs. "musical"). Then add personal preference, and the vast majority of DAC are perfectly fine. For those discerning folks, you may need multiple DACs and match them to the recording. As pointed out elsewhere, I experimented with a $250 and a $5,000 DAC and preference depended on track. Differences if perceptible at all were minute at best. Neither of the DACs was objectively "better". In that case, it was a cheaper chip vs. a more expensive R2R DAC. So rather consider foot print and look of the DAC than thinking one may sound better for a variety of music and recording styles. If you like audio bling, go for it, put your bespoke ethernet/USB cable on lifters. If you want to be more frugal, know that you are not missing anything with respect to audio, if that is your primary interest. |
Deepest salutations my friend!
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The assumption that the DAC chip or processing technology is the determining factor for sound quality is a fallacy. I have posted before, it is the implementation of the design intent in using whatever processing technology is chosen, from the digital input stage to the analogue output stage, that determines sound quality. I find implementation of the analogue output stage as critical, more critical to sound quality as the processing stage. I have noted over the years the gap between DACs in the lower price range to upper price range has narrowed. The benefit/cost ratio becomes personal preference and means. The assumption that the cost of goods should dictate retail price alone, and companies selling expensive DACs do so to take advantage of customers, is a fallacy. The capital goods we purchase in the hobby are luxury goods. The driver for setting retail price for any luxury goods is value based pricing where the price is set based on the perceived value to the customer rather than the cost to produce it, leading to higher retail prices, and of course, higher profit margins. The content developer only considered COGS. He did not consider that this is a boutique market with small volume net sales and low volume manufacturing processes that drives COGS higher. I would assume the content developer has never participated in a formal break even analysis. He did not consider development cost and GMROI. Many brands do extensive analysis of years to bring a new or revised model to market. However, prices of some manufacturer’s equipment are above the means of most of us. Unless we have participated in their market and price analysis, we cannot comment and should resolve ourselves to respecting their technological achievements, and be satisfied with our systems. I find this content developer is speaking from an uninformed position from both and audiophile and business perspective so as to strike emotional response in an effort to get more views to elevate his marketability. Sorry I helped him. |
Imho, far too much is made of the objective performance as being the final determination in how good an audio component’s sound is. In reality, there’s far more involved in tailoring the sound of an audio component (ie. Voicing) then just the raw numbers of a test bench. Moreover, choosing audio gear that complements one’s system to create a synergy is far more important than spending a small fortune on one component which will then only serve to expose the flaws in the rest of the system. As for the topic of this thread regarding digital to analogue converters being a scam, that is simply not the case, because all dacs do not sound the same. Dac’s like other audio components benefit by good engineering as well as the use of high quality components. Logic should indicate based on the aforesaid, that a well implemented dac using quality components, will sound better than a poorly engineered dac using lesser components. Even two dacs using the same components will sound different depending on how the components are engineered into each dac.
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Some real honesty here.
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@kennymacc : So you love gazing at your lovely expensive wristwatch as the seconds tick by? |
@mahgister 👍 Gets deep quick. And gone thru this before here. Do what cha' do. Fleeting as is Enjoy, J |
I went from the chip decoder in my Oppo disk player for several years. Then after several years of reading, and watching various reviews of Dacs, I bought a Denafrips Venus 12th about two years ago. I was stunned at the difference. I did not believe how much better my system. The clarity, smoothness, less fatigue, hearing things I never heard before. Disks that are SACD, BLU RAY, DVD-Audio all were revealing. The Denafrips is easy to use. No volume control, simple to use nothing I dont need, just easy to use. No regrets. The Venus is the middle Dac in the lineup, offer great performance for the money. |
This hobby for me was about how i ought to learn to install an audio system studying the three main working dimensions of any system , nevermind the price : mechanical,electrical,acoustical...
Most people are gullible to publicity and buy gear as upgrade thats all ...they are only interested by the gear : if they are subjectivist, they are moved by their "taste" about gear, if they are objectivist it is worst, they are only interested by some very limited set of measures... Myself i learned how to do and what to do with any gear system, now i listen music and speak about music not gear.... I discovered also in all these experiments the best possible introduction into deep acoustics science, a book as marvellous as philosophically important (sound sources by Akpen J. Essien) ... Thanks to this forum... i discovered the book discussing with engineers in audio who to my surprise ignore psycho-acoustics basis obsessed by electrical design over acoustics...
I participated less here now because it is impossible to have deep discussion most of the times... Even discussion about simple tweaks or discussion about acoustics are too much... Most discussions are about a product favored or disliked, it is free marketing...It could be interesting if we search for others opinion before buying but it is very limited if we want to study, experiment and learn...
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@tweak1 Actually, as true or false as it my be, none of what the gentlemen in video stated really makes a hill of beans difference to the average audiophile. This hobby is more about what captures your imagination, illusions, stirs ones emotion and passion more than anything else, regardless of price, or, sometime, performance. The equipment is just as important as the music itself. That’s what being an audiophile is all about. I just love gazing at my lovely, expensive audio gear (jewelry) just as much as I do listening to it. This doesn’t make me any less of a music lover. It’s all in the game. Happy listening. |
You have been on ASR review web site again . totally disagree starting from the router ,the wall wart garbage has to go just ads more noise , I bought a LTA LPS power supply ,and a decent $600 Ethernet switch ,decent power cords , and quality Ethernet cables, USB , and I2S cables Everything counts . The Terminator15 dac is very good and resolving and my new Swiss Merason Dac 1-MK2. Is probably one of the most analog sounding dacs out there ,both dacs are far better then Anything under $5k. Having heard literally over 100 dacs over 20 years technology in digital has Greatly advanced. $5k on up is A respectable reference point To start ,this is just from my experiences and IMO. |
I’ve owned multi-thousand dollar DACs but these days I use the $400 Topping E70 Velvet. IME, there is no point in using an expensive DAC unless, perhaps, your system is anchored by >$20K speakers. Speakers are the weak link in the vast majority of systems. More specifically, the drivers in said speakers are the weakest link. Really there is no point in using a >$300 DAC unless your speakers are equipped with something like Scanspeak Revelator or SB Satori drivers. Even then….🤔
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@jasonbourne71 , There’s a bit more nuance to a dac than distortion, sinad, transparency whatever. They can quite significantly change a soundfield, spatial cues, perceivable detail with dsp tricks (fpga, etc). Get a simple Creative soundcard and try the different tweaks on their dsp engine. I have a couple of prepros that will let you create a very different experience everyday if one wanted (through dsp). But, since the vulture priced dacs are typically sold to "purist" guys who are a bit technologically challenged, the dsp tricks.."flavors" are more hidden away.
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@audiotroy @loomisjohnson @soix +1 ….. big time…. Simply put, “what makes a good DAC?”. Too many believe that the magic silver bullet secret to a good DAC lies in just choosing a “high-end” converter chip flavour of the day, Chip design is important, BUT …. with hands-on audio experience and verified by direct unit audition bake-offs …. as we go up the price-point ladder, we also learned that the essence of the musicality also resides in the line signal processing stages, the power supplies (transformers, filtering, regulation), the digital signal processing before conversion, the quality of the key components: clocks, transistors, capacitors, etc. ….these are foundations of DAC sonic improvements |
Brought to you by the UK division of ASR. OMG, it’s Amir with a British accent. Love the way he glosses over the power supply and output stage and doesn’t even broach the subject of the clock, galvanic isolation, etc. This is a prime example of someone who has to go by measurements because he’s completely incapable of using his ears so swears the rest of us are just fooling ourselves. This guy is a total joke, and there’s 13 minutes of my life I’ll never get back. |
Thanks to them for this book i discover to help me when discussing with them, one is Amir...