The DAC Scam - Almost everyone believes the hype

@raysmtb1

Ah, OK. The picture now makes more sense!  ;o)

My favorite and current is the Audio Research Reference 9… well I have the CD9SE, which also has a transport, both tubed. 

@stuartk I do believe you are correct. I never thought of that. The space tech is the only one I think was tubed…lol

@raysmtb1

Are any of the DACs on your list, aside from the SpaceTech, tubed?

If your preference is for tube DACs, then it’s understandable that all SS DACs could conceivably sound relatively the same, by comparison.

@facten 

 Nothing is definitive about anything in audio everyone hears differently, may have different system objectives , etc. so what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for anyone or everyone else. 

Exactly.

Nevertheless, there are always guys who insist their experience defines reality and that the rest of us are self-deluded.  Don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty fed up with these self-appointed "guardians of the truth". 

@raysmtb1        Thanks for the perspective. Glad it worked out that way for you. My end results was different going through the DAC journey which I  posted elsewhere in this thread. Nothing is definitive about anything in audio everyone hears differently, may have different system objectives , etc. so what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for anyone or everyone else. Enjoy!

@facten I’ll do a list below Of under 4K and over 4K and then maybe that’ll help you.

Under 4K

Blue node, caimbridge, ockto 8, Lumin, SMSL 10,mcintosh D1 & D2, Sabaj, Space tech lab, Mytek, benchmark, I know I’m missing a few I can’t remember them

Over 4K

Bricasti, Meitner, Berkeley, DCS Bartók ,  i’m forgetting at least one more.

So I think I said in my post that I had had 20 different DACs. I’ve only listed 16 here but I know I’m forgetting a couple so I’m pretty close to 20 different units. The best units that punched above their way was the Space Tech Lab TMS-1000. I still have this unit and have ordered a new unit that will be here in a month or so. The unit I have is the beginner unit which retail for about $3200 and I’ve stepped it up to a newer unit that’s approximately $4800 With eight times over sampling. We’ll see how that goes if it’s as good as the TMS 1000 I’ll be amazed.
 

The other unit that was my favorite out of the above 4K was the Berkeley Alpha two without MQA. It was the most musical out of any of the units over 4K. All the other units were amazingly crisp and tight. They were so clean I almost had a hard time listening to them.

So that is my very expensive journey. I hope some of you guys out there are able to learn a little bit at my expense. If you have any questions let me know. I will say that the best DAC for the money is definitely the Space Tech Labs. Everyone should look into their stuff. Let me first say that the website needs a lot of work. It’s just the opposite of all of the other DAC manufacturers. It is at least 20 years old and looks like it. They must spend all of their time building amazing DACs instead of being worried about the website. Most manufacturers have a modern very splash website but their DACs are average. Space tech is the opposite. I had to take the back off of my unit to replace a card for an update and I was amazed at how it was built. It’s all hand assembled point to point wiring. Al, the owner explained to me that wherever they can they try not to use any printed circuit boards. They do everything they can with tubes. I’m not sure what that last sentence means because I’m not an electronics with but The DACs that they make are the most musical, analog sounding that I’ve ever heard. When you call them up to order one Al answers the phone and basically helps you figure out what you would like to achieve. Al is a Japanese American and at times I had a hard time understanding him but eventually you get it all worked out. This is starting to sound like an ad but it’s not. Out of all of those DACs at the beginning of my posts space tech labs is by far the winner out of the ones below 4K and the ones above 4K. If you’re in the market give them a try. If you don’t like the unit which I doubt will be the case you can send it back within 30 days and I think there’s a 10% restock fee. But if you hate it at least you’re not stuck with it I seriously doubt you will hate it. OK guys I hope this helps, give a call!

@raysmtb1 "don’t waste it on a DAC once you hit the $2000 level Nothing changes"

Can you put some context around your statement - what specific DACs under $2K have you firsthand compared to what specific DACs above $2K that led you to this definitive conclusion?

Well @raysmtb1, many have been there but won’t want to admit it. A famous US manufacturer of DACs said something similar to you that DACS have more often minor differences (to paraphrase) but the better route is to invest in amplification. That’s been my experience but not with a long line of DACs to offer comparison. A long line of listening to varied (mostly tube) amplifiers over years, yes.

Most know the tech options although there’s an emerging vein with DSD upsampling with PS Audio and Cen Grand DSDDAC plus other big boys like Playback Design. (Had one of the original top Sony SACD players back in the day too.)

Then there’s the software upsampling with HQPlayer being really powerful plus the internal options built in Roon and Audirvana. With Audirvana Studio in my system, the upsampling option is quite nice up to 256 YMMV.

The AKM chips fancy upsampling to one bit DSD, outputs to a lovely bluish light display on an RME ADI-2. Many have experienced that upside with Holo DACs, Harmony, etc. and note HQPlayer elevates them to a significantly better sound.

Unsure on what you have tested but I’d love to hear a DSD upsampling shoot out between the RME ADI-2 FS, the Holo May and the Harmony. That would be fun.

(One additional note on the RME ADI-2 FS. When playing DSD Direct you need an external preamp to control the volume as volume control is lost when you make the DSD Direct setting. Found there was a benefit that way for the RME not doing that double duty in my system too. Completely different capability all around.) 

This is spot on. I bought over 20 different DAC units and every time I get a new one I tested against the old one and I always sit there and think to myself why did I do this.? It sounds so close to the old one I should’ve just Kept the old one. I’ve had as many as four of them hooked up at once level match them all and did a blind test. I failed miserably I could not tell the difference. Put your money into amplification or speakers don’t waste it on a DAC once you hit the $2000 level Nothing changes

I found that synchronizing my clock with the DAC, transport, and DDC took my digital sound to a new level

This can be interesting. Could you be more specific on which kind of improvements you noticed with either the clock synchronization or your DDC, which particular synchronizer and DDC are you using?

I did a a factory tour of MSB in Northern California in January.Their Principal engineer mentioned that the implementation of the chips and isolation of the signal is paramount in a elegant DAC configuration. So much more goes into a a great sounding DAC than just the chip selected. I found that synchronizing my clock with the DAC, transport, and DDC took my digital sound to a new level.

@facten Yes, sunk cost idea. But I will not look for anything else for a long time.

I still want to compare it to the Topping D50 gen 1, and also the Dragonfly USB DACs. When I purchased first the red then black then cobalt versions, I heard slight differences through EarPods. Again, was curious, and they are relatively cheap. However, when the DF fails, I will get something more reasonably priced.

I hear plenty of clear improvements with tubes, phono stages, speakers, etc. Just DACs, it is not better/worse, just oh-so-slightly different. 

@oberoniaomnia  no appreciable discernable difference but you still kept the May

@facten 

So out of curiosity why then do you have a $4K+ Holo May  DAC?

I was curious to find out if "better" DACs sound that much better. Rather than walking incrementally through various iterations, I rather go in all the way. I went by the YouTube review of the May by GoldenSound, whom I liked as he was the one who took MQA apart. -- I then was curious how a cheaper DAC, mainly for my secondary computer desktop system, compared to the much more pricey one. To be sure to hear differences (if there are any) go for an extreme comparison. Alas, not much difference.

@jnovak

It amazes me that there is so much talk on all topics audio. The BEST thing any of us could say is "Come over and listen to my system and decide for yourself". I live one hour north of Philadelphia. Anyone who wants to is welcome to stop by and listen! Who else is in?

If I were in your neck of the woods and not Oregon, I would stop by. I agree, it’s better to listen to music. There is a lot of talk, and how anyone has the patience to listen to those 15 or 30 minute YouTubes whose content could be read in a few minutes if the presenters bothered to write it down -- well, that’s beyond me.

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system. Midfi at best. It's not the dac chip mainly it's the overall implementation. I've owned several dacs over the years and you get what you pay for typicallyrights.

You have all rights to justify your dac investments with any arguments that you like. At the same time, try to avoid public statements on how good or bad are equipment and ears of others. 

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system.

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have ears.

I've come to the conclusion whomever believes most things ASR says doesn't have a very resolving system.  Midfi at best.  It's not the dac chip mainly it's the overall implementation. I've owned several dacs over the years and you get what you pay for typically. 

First, AP Mastering posted another YouTube regarding the fact that the viewers who took his test could not tell the difference between the different portions he was playing. He had over 1,000 responses and his results are extremely statistically significant. That doesn’t mean his test proved what he set out to test, only that viewers who tried to determine how many cuts were in his loopback were unable to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbcEgxm6RTU

Second, my own opinion is that there are small differences between DACs that may show up on a particular system set up in a particular way. I think the biggest differences are the different types of conversion be it what kind of chip vs r2r vs fpga. I heard a friend playing a very cheap DAC which sounded alright but adding a more expensive (not that much more) DAC opened up the soundstage significantly.

I A/B’d a T+A Dac vs an ifi iDSD pro and couldn’t really tell the difference. This was not a blind test either. I think AP Mastering has it correct that most people could not tell the difference between dacs if they are volume matched and in a blind test if the dacs use the same conversion method.

@niodari

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

How two people perceive the actual differences between two DACs will definitely be impacted not only by their respective priorities in terms of sonic factors but also by their hearing. And of course, this is not even considering differences in ancillary gear and listening spaces!

As it happened, the particular group of DACs I auditioned in the past spanned a very wide spectrum, in terms of musical vs. analytical/warm vs. bright. If I’d chosen a different group of DACs, the differences might’ve been far less evident and I might well have determined that one DAC pretty much sounds like another.

@stuartk  We all may perceive the sound differently. I just like tube sound and prefer my tube DAC over all other ones. I am just now comparing two class D amps. One has  a notably less distortion than the other, while the second one has much wider upper mids and highs, as you like. I still prefer the first amp, but it's really difficult to choose. Different DACs may sound differently, it is a matter of a taste who likes what. And not necessarily a more expensive one dominates a cheaper DAC in all aspects, in fact, I did not have a DAC that dominates in all aspects other DACs that I have/had (the $130 ifi DAC has very notably wider high mids and highs than much more expensive Chord, though the latter one gives less distortion (so you may lake the ifi more than the Chord). Take two women, both beautiful in a different way. Some people would choose one of them and some other another one. Overall, the differences between two decent DACs would not be so notable than the differences between different amps and speakers. One may spend the difference in the cost of two DACs for a better amp or a better speaker. Of course, one with an unlimited resources may spend his money on a most expensive DAC (which, still may not be dominant in all aspects).  

that's why is great to have a secondary system, and some stuff I only really like in my car...

@niodari

It’s a reality that some recordings will never sound very good, no matter how expensive the gear. In fact the more resolving the gear, the worse such recordings may sound. It seems a waste of time to me to focus gear upgrades on trying to garner improved sonics from such recordings but then, if much of one’s favorite music is poorly recorded/produced, I suppose it’s understandable. Thankfully, I don’t find myself in such a predicament.

Differences I’ve experienced in DACs:

1) Tonality -- some emphasize the upper mids and highs while others are more rolled off and emphasize the lower mids/upper bass. I happen to be very sensitive to highs/forwardness. I’ve played guitar for 50 + years and tonality has always been a top priority in choosing guitars. I don’t like muddy sounding guitars or bright sounding guitars. Same with audio. It’s not easy to build a guitar that is both warm and clear sounding. Many overemphasize upper mids and highs and truncate bass in an effort to improve clarity and so-called "balance". Much current audio gear, to my ears, sounds like it's voiced to sound "lively" or "energic" and to me this typically translates to fatiguing. 

2) "Organic" vs. "Clinical" or Natural vs. Analytic: Some DACs I’ve heard have sounded "dry" while others are more ’liquid". I lack the vocabulary to explain this further, except to say that I associate leaner mids and tipped up highs with the clinical sound. Some DACs have behaved more like lab equipment, akin to a microscope. They’ve emphasize resolution above all else, which sounds very unnatural to me. Not my cup of tea.

3) Bass and 4) Soundstaging

There are other categories I’m probably forgetting. The above are the most obvious to me and reflect my particular priorities. As always, YMMV. I’m more of a music lover than an audiophile so there are factors to which I pay little attention that might figure largely in your gear choices.

As @moonwatcher correctly states:

We all have different ears (hearing) and sonic priorities. Some may say natural tone or body of sounds and the attack and decay are most important, others will say soundstage and imaging. Some want it all, if they can get it at a price they are willing to pay. We choose our priorities.

 

+1000.

If ya can't hear any differences stop barking like Barky Bark in OP's video, delete the hifi forum accounts, stick the bose earphones in and walk the dog.

I've seen so many of these discussions.  End of day, if you can't hear a difference, you are in the wrong hobby, and you are wasting your $$.  

Some of us DO hear profound differences, sometimes sublime differences, and as we can afford to burn money on this hobby...we do.

@stuartk , My point of view is that we all depend too much on the quality of recordings we are listening to. Even on a poorly recorded music, the amps and speakers make huge difference, whereas the differences between DACs are much less. I do not count really bad DACs which do exist (some time I was using Blue note Node 2i but just which is not bad as a streamer,  but its DAC is really bad). At the same time,  I still use a $130 ifi zen DAC for  streaming from my lap in my studio system, and I have a T&A $7000 DAC with a Melco streamer in my main system. I still prefer the latter combination, but I do enjoy streaming in my studio system as well, the SQ is not really bad. I do hear more distortion there, but all recordings and audio gear have some degree of distortion. When I am completely dedicated and concentrated to the music I am listening to, I do enjoy more clear and clean sound in my main system, but this does not demotivate me to listen to my other audio system. 

You mentioned about the differences in "musicality and tonality". What differences in tonality or musicality you can hear listening to Led Zeppelin I-VI with different DACs or to Miles Davis Kind of Blue (which is one of the best recorded early albums of Miles Davis)?  Can you be more specific on differences in "musicality and tonality" that you note, on which kind of music? How you perceive the "musicality and tonality"  in Jimi Hendrix albums, or take much better quality recordings on  ECM or more recently on ACT jazz, or on the classical music (which was always recorded much better than the Rock and perhaps also the jazz)? 

@niodari

Of course, amplifier and speakers have a greater effect.

I would have to hear a demonstration of what you consider to be "more or less similar fashion".

For me, tonality and musicality are first and foremost and in terms of these factors, I’ve heard fairly dramatic differences in presentation that are most definitely not adequately described as "more or less similar". Variations in recording equality are another variable in the equation. I’m talking about what the DAC itself contributes, all other things being equal.

This dude ignores that there is an analogue amp in every DAC. 
he can’t hear or has not bothered to on any worthwhile audio gear. 
 

dumb begets dumb. 

@stuartk    We are talking about the importance of a DAC compared to the other components of a system, comparing the impact of a descent DAC on a system. An impact of an amplifier or a speaker on the SQ of the system is drastic . All modern decent  DACs reproduce the digital recording more or less in a similar fashion. The  quality  of a particular recording affects the overall SQ much more than a particular DAC: Take a well recorded CD and paly it on an inexpensive DAC (with cost < $1K), and take then a little worse recording and play it an a $15k DAC. The first option will give you a better SQ. Of course, if you  "invest" your money on an expensive DAC you should be convinced that you made a good investment. 

@niodari

After a quite long time experience with DACs of different categories and prices I’m convinced that they make minor changes in overall sound reproduction and quality. I suggest all of them use similar kind the conversion methods, whereas the hardware perhaps doesn’t matter so much. I cannot explain more technically why this happens but I am convinced about the outcomes.

... And, with all due respect, those of us who’ve experienced significant differences are just as "convinced".

@partslinger you’re welcome and good luck!

I believe any component is "tuned" by the designer. So that DAC chip can have it's sound manipulated by how all the other pieces are put together. Power supplies make a huge difference, in my experience as well. Two different car models may share the exact same engine. However, all the things around it (chassis, transmission, etc), will determine any differences the driver my experience. 

After a quite long time experience with DACs of different categories and prices I'm convinced that they make minor changes in overall sound reproduction and quality. I suggest all of them use similar kind the conversion methods, whereas the hardware perhaps doesn't matter so much. I  cannot explain more technically why this happens but I am convinced about the outcomes. 

What a load of bull ...

Diminishing returns. Is Rolls Royce better than BMW? Only for you to know and decide.

So much of life is suggestion and predisposition, and this, is mostly that. The video tells you the truth. But beauty matters, build quality matters, parts quality every step of the way matters. So I don't agree that in a "good" system there's not going to be audible differences between a few hundred dollar ADC/DAC and a several thousand dollar unit.

His comments about snake oil are true. Confirmation bias? True. There is no doubt other than your own, but it really doesn't matter. To the degree that multi-thousand dollar units vary in sound is either (and mostly) by design, or it's a bad design, but folks love the sound. Personally I don't believe that altering the D/A output is the way to go. I'd rather figure out what's really lacking in the rest of my signal path.

I do believe that above a few thousand dollars, you're getting into more art than engineering -- and yes -- it's mostly in the looks. Spending $20 or $30k on a unit is not buying better sound. You may like one top-flight Cabernet Sauvignon over another, but it's not better-than/worse-than -- it's just your taste.

This hobby/love is loaded with BS -- but then again, so are countless others.

The video creator is an idiot, and I hate point blank statements like that, without inspection.....either for or against.

I have tried about 13 or so DACs in my system, with my components, with my ears. All of them made audible differences, some positive and some negative. R2R ladder DACs sound best to my ears, and Lampizators I'm extremely fond of, but I'm not exactly sure what they are yet.

When I had a $15,000 system, lot's of DACs sounded very similar; because my system could not reveal the differences. Years later I now have a $50,000+ setup, and DACs are noticeably different from one another.

I choose to ignore the hype and the ignorance, and just focus on what sounds best to me in my system. In that vein, DACs have made improvements and they don't have to cost $20,000, there are some killer DACs in the $3,000 to $5,000 range......incredible starts a bit up from there.

@ facten @knownothing Thank you both for your replies. I like the thought of a tube DAC. I don't want fatiguing anything. For clarification, I have a desktop computer feeding a Dragonfly black which is feeding a Conrad Johnson PV-10AL which is feeding an Audiophonics LPA-S500NC into KEF LS50's. 

It sounds like even a $400 DAC is going to be an improvement provided I find one that suits my tastes. I like that ultra tubey sound. Euphonic is the word I hear used to describe the sound I like. Marantz back in the day used to have what was referred to as the "two martini sound". I have always been a fan of vintage Marantz sound. 

It sounds like both of you liked the Chord line of DAC's, and for reasons I can appreciate. I'll read reviews and compare the Mojo's to some of the Topping DAC's like the E70 Velvet and the Denefrips Aries. I read a review that described the Velvet as sounding warm and non fatiguing, but than I read another review that didn't describe it that way.

Anyway, thank you both so much for your thoughtful replies. I may just buy several DAC's from Amazon or other outlets that allow returns and test until I find what suits me. Thanks again.

Matt

Agree with @big_greg!

Aren’t all speakers just drivers and enclosures??  Amps just transistors and transformers?? 🤔

@tweak1 

If there is a "scam", it's this idea that only the chip matters. 

So much fail in this thread. "It's all ones and zeros". That's like saying "it's all just grooves in the vinyl" and that all cartridges sound the same. In both cases there are a lot of important parts and design choices between the input signal and the analog output that (can) have a significant impact on sound quality.

If you're happy with the sound of your $200 DAC and truly believe more expensive ones will all sound the same... I guess you should consider yourself lucky!

@partslinger I have both a Dragonfly Black (V1.2) and a Red, and I have tried both with and without an AudioQuest Jitterbug. I have compared them to both Chord QuteHD and Chord Mojo2 DACs. I used these with headphones and in a near field 2.1 desktop system with modest AudioQuest and DIY cables, not high end but in near field at low to moderate volume, revealing, especially of soundstage.

The Dragonfly Black sounds nice, warm, moderately quiet, inoffensive. It was a great improvement over the sound cards typically available in most laptop computers when it was first introduced back in 2012. The Dragonfly Red was a significant step up in terms of detail on offer with it’s ESS chip, and greater amplification on tap to drive a greater variety of headphones. To me the most noticeable difference is the way the Red lays out a pinpoint soundstage. But I also find listening to the Red to be fatiguing in my system or with headphones compared to the Black. The Jitterbug scrubs off some of the edge on the Dragonfly Red, at the expense of detail. The Jitterbug with the Black is just too much softness for me.

In comparing the sound that I get from the AudioQuest Dragonflies to the two Chord DACs, there is no contest. The detail on tap with both of the Chords connected to my MS Surface laptop with a decent USB cable exceeds both of the dongles and while the Chords might give up a touch of the ESS (artificial?) “air” of the Dragonfly Red, that is more than made up for by precise leading and trailing edges of notes, tonal accuracy across the frequencies, ability to distinguish individual instruments and voices, and perhaps most importantly, complete lack of listening fatigue. Both AudioQuest devices sound “grainy” in comparison to the Chord DACs, and the Red is boarding on downright edgy.

Given measurements from ASR show that the Dragonflies measure well below some of the current inexpensive offerings from the likes of Topping or SMSL in terms of signal to noise ratio, you can probably do much better than the Dragonfly Black for not a whole lot more money in desktop packages. If portability and built-in headphone amplification is important, my experience is that the Chord Mojo2 is a significant upgrade, and there may be other products that would improve your experience for less than a Mojo2 (the Mojo2 is much better than the original Mojo, so I would only consider the “2” version). If you have the budget, there are much better sounding DACs for racks at many price points, but something like the Denefrips Aries or Chord Qutest will offer you very different flavors and can be found used now for near a grand or less.

As always, YMMV,

kn

@partslinger My apologies for reading into your post. I haven’t heard the Dragonfly so I can’t offer an opinion on it. That said I’ll offer the following. My 1st separate DAC I purchased years ago cost around $350-450. I don’t recall if it was an entry level PSAudio or Music Fidelity, regardless it sounded better or more to my taste than the DAC in my Arcam CD player. I eventually replaced that with a $1600 April Music DAC that was across the board better sounding. However, I did buy a $1200 Blue Circle DAC that I enjoyed listening to more. After awhile I decided to purchase a tube based DAC , the 3 or 4x more expensive Modwright Elysee . It was significantly better in SQ and soundstage while comparable in to the Blue Circle’s sonic tone. I then decided to try an Aqua LaVoce S2 that had an even wider soundtage than the Modwright but I found it too detailed and it left me fatigued listening to it beyond an hour and a half. I sold that off. A Mojo Evo Dac in the cost bracket of the Modwright i found hit the mark on my listening taste. Two years or so ago I auditioned a $15K Tron Signature DAC that has outstanding presentation, but has a very detailed sound that just doesn’t suit my listening taste. Instead of the Tron d I went with a Neodio Origine S2 CD player, the DAC of which more suits my listening taste. The point of all of this is from my perspective you’re not going to be able to know and decide if anything else better suits your listening tastes until you hear them for yourself. The narrative that it’s just ones and zeros so it doesn’t matter is nonsense. DACs don’t all sound the same. Ignore the cost element, how much you spend or not is immaterial. I’d suggest that you rather focus on what sound signature you prefer , seek out the ones that match that, and then decide for yourself if it is worth it to you or not to move beyond what you have.

@bigtex22 what DAC do you use , what have you compared it to and how did they not differ?

Expensive DACs are all hype. At the end of the day, it’s all ones and zeroes and the algorithm. Save your money and put it towards great amps and speakers. 

@facten I'm sorry if my comment came off as a "vieled skeptic question", that's certainly not how I meant it. It's an honest question. Unfortunately, I live in a small city 100 miles away from anywhere that I might be able to listen to high end equipment first hand. I work 5 days a week and don't often have the time to go out of town.

I can't find any reviews comparing the Dragonfly to anything other than other Dragonfly models, red, blue, cobalt. I honestly have no idea how it compares to other DAC's other than by the price I paid for it. Hence the question. I'm not looking to attack anyone or be attacked, just looking for an honest answer to an honest question. Going from a cheap Chinese tube preamp to a Conrad Johnson pv10 was a night and day difference. All I'm asking is if the technology in DAC's is at a point where they are all pretty close and no real night and day differences exists.

What may be true to a certain degree for 20$ cable versus 10,000 dollars cable in an 100,000 bucks system,

cannot be applied for a low cost dac versus a very costlier one in the same 100,000 bucks system because the way we evaluate a piece of gear is related to the other gear parts design synergy...

Also a 100,000 bucks system will sound very different and not at his peak potential at all in a living room and in a dedicated acoustic room ... A truth no audiophile like to face...

Nobody want to study and experiment or had the time to do so, they prefer or can only pay for an "upgrade"... But upgrade may be very very rapidly illusory...

Acoustics is better than an "upgrade" because it is the root of sound experience not a "taste" or a "flavor"...

I have a Dragonfly black USB DAC. I paid like $120 for it. My question is: Does a $4,000 DAC sound $3,880 better? Or would I be just as well off buying a used Topping E70 Velvet for $275? Would I even notice an appreciable difference between the Topping and Dragonfly?

A salesman at a high end audio store once told me that the reason $10,000 interconnects exist is because people who buy $100,000 systems feel weird about connecting it all together with $20 cables. I know for a fact that $10,000 cables don’t sound $9,980 better than $20 cables. But rich people have to spend their money on something. Is there such a thing as night and day differences between decent DAC’s, or is it just different flavors and slight variations? Is it milking that last 2% of sound quality for thousands of dollars buying high dollar DAC’s?

@partslinger if you really want to know if a $4k DAC will sound better why don’t you go listen to one with your dragonfly and whatever you hook it up to in tow and do a 1 st hand comparison. That is if you really want to know vs the vieled skeptic question

I have a Dragonfly black USB DAC. I paid like $120 for it. My question is: Does a $4,000 DAC sound $3,880 better? Or would I be just as well off buying a used Topping E70 Velvet for $275? Would I even notice an appreciable difference between the Topping and Dragonfly?

A salesman at a high end audio store once told me that the reason $10,000 interconnects exist is because people who buy $100,000 systems feel weird about connecting it all together with $20 cables. I know for a fact that $10,000 cables don't sound $9,980 better than $20 cables. But rich people have to spend their money on something. Is there such a thing as night and day differences between decent DAC's, or is it just different flavors and slight variations? Is it milking that last 2% of sound quality for thousands of dollars buying high dollar DAC's?