McIntosh -- good for show, not for sound, says dealer

It took reading all the way down the first page of this thread before someone mentioned value (thanks henry53). There can be no doubt that McIntosh products are very well built, last a long time, and for most people, sound just fine. If you don't care about money, by all means buy McIntosh. But if you do care about money and value, McIntosh products are very expensive for what you get. Since I'm always concerned about value, McIntosh products are a non-starter for me, but that in no way means they're bad performing products.

So, umm, lemme guess, 11Stereo is not a McIntosh dealer, but is a dealer for other brands at similar price points to Mac gear. FWIW, I have been using a C220 preamp for over a decade. Yes, I like it’s looks, but I bought it because of its flexible functionality. I did swap out the tubes and got better performance and lowered the noise floor. To my ears, in the context of my system, it sounds fantastic, and has the features I need, like a balance control with great range, and a tape loop. The MM phono section sounds wonderful, and needle drop digital copies of my LPs sound awesome. Overpriced? Not to my ears, although I did by used. YMMV.

@hilde45, peace!

@curiousjim, you said:

"ocdmikey is the same clown who lost out on distributing of Denafrips products and went on YouTube blasting the company and their products. Really appeared to be sour grapes."

Mikey didn’t loose Denafrips. He choose to drop them. His video clearly explains what happened. Denafrips didn’t honor the distribution agreement they had with Mikey. Also, they wanted Mikey to drop all of the other lines he represents and only carry them.

In the video Mikey explained that the way the Chinese company operates, there wasn’t any benefit to an American distributing company, only to the Chinese company. The price an end user pays is over priced due to where it’s manufactured.

Mikey told his side of the story of what happened. He said people can continue to buy the brand if they want. That’s not sour grapes. That’s explaining his decision to drop the brand and move on. If the company didn’t honor it’s agreement and then put unrealistic demands on Mikey as a provision of continuing to represent the brand, who could blame him for dropping them?

Anyone else getting the feeling that this is becoming a nascar argument of Ford vs Chevy? 
sit back and enjoy the music anyway you can. Even if you are in your Ford and passing a Chevy!

Everyone is entitled to like what they like. But it’s better for everybody to keep any hate suppressed. Except for my hate of the OP’s "discuss."

No good can come from it.

fascinating to me what transpires on this thread, not sure if this is what @hilde45 intended with his op

there are mcintosh bashers whose bashing is repetitive, argumentative, unnecessary... but the defensive defenders can be just as obnoxious

reality is, there are so many good choices for hifi gear, it is a wonderfully vibrant marketplace... good sound and good looks need not be mutually exclusive, some want both, some want good stuff, good brand recognition, are not 10-10ths hifi herds, others are... why do we care how other people choose to spend their money, pursue their happiness if it is not our own? some of us like this brand, the looks, so what, so what if we don’t?

i feel so much of this stems from our base instincts... jealousy, envy, frustration with our own circumstances, shallow need for external validation of our own personal choices... we should rise above all of this...

just enjoy the music, the fact that we all have the wherewithall to enjoy this hobby, participate in this forum, this discussion, and we should wish each other good luck in finding one's own version of happiness within it...

Agree.  Nice post.

McIntosh makes nice stuff that lasts over decades. They are still in business. 

Matching with the right source, speakers, cables, helps make a difference. 

Some of their amps can sound nice, particularly for fans of the signature Mc sound. 

Thanks Master M. for pointing out the relationship between the user, their room AND their gear. 

The three are as important as having 120vac @ 60hz with new equipment. 

I have been able to make just about any preamp and power amp work if I first address a clean AC source and then with a room up approach. I don't tune like Master M with perfect personal volume (Helmholtz) tuning.

It is difficult to achieve for ME I'm not that patient and wouldn't be able to clean that type of system with MY pet situation. I do have 4 14" x 84" Sono tubes though. They are well on their way to taming a 25 X 40 shop.. Helmholtz.
3 bumps 60, 80 and 120hz are tough in a single tube. I'm close. It hasn't ruined the bass either. Those bumps can become deep dips with Helmholtz, it works BOTH ways. It's just mechanical in leu of full blown PEQ. A passive EQ is actually better for MY bass system. GEQ. My contours are added analog to the bass passively not digitally by altering the signal.

Sub/bass and then integrate the main speakers in.. I have used the same type of speakers 25+ years.. Small planars and ribbons.. The only thing I've changed in the last 6 years is the 60-80hz and below. GRs servo system.

I know I could use an MC240, C20 and a couple pairs of good class D to really set up top notch SQ in a tuned room. It's 50% of the sound pretty easy. 1300.00 for the original C20 and 240. I still have them. I use 12K Behringer for bass and GRs.

I'm with Master M as the years go by it cost LESS to get great sound not more. It does cost a lot of time though..

Regards

I have always considered "Macs" to be the "Harley-Davidson" of audio, and anyone who knows "bikes" knows just what I mean. 😉

@toddalin Yes the old Macs have soul and character like an old Harley.

I am a European bike buy and prefer my Ducks, Aprilia's and the Norton Commando 750 I restored. Might be why i have a Hungarian Integrated with a German TT and Swedish phono preamp and speakers.

This dude needs to get a haircut and stop smoking that funny stuff.He knows nothing. I forgot more then this guy will ever know listen to him at your own risk.What system does he have that makes him the expert.

another thing this thread proves and reminds us of are the limitations of ’handy analogies’... rolex's, harleys, lexus' ...  ugh...

such are coarse, highly inexact tools for assisting the unknowing with only a very cursory understanding...

He could have made a fortune if he would have stuck with Denafrips.....I'd like to hear Alvin Lee's side of the story....a more than highly respected member of the audio hi-fi community if you have ever dealt with him.

Ridiculous 

Speaking of blanket statements............haha

This is a more apt comparison. That said, I know a Lexus is not for everyone either! :)

Instead of Rolex or Harley Davidson, why not compare McIntosh to Lexus.

Like Lexus, McIntosh has:

1. Excellent longevity and good looks.

2. Top Tier resale value and brand recognition.

3. Competitive performance in each segment.

4. One of the highest rated customer satisfaction and ownership experiences.

5. Owners either trade for another Lexus, or keep it in the family and buy another.

I've noticed in the previous posts that if a McIntosh owner shares their likes, it's detailed and specific including models and supporting thoughts. However, the critics don't offer "the why" details to support their position other than generic blanket statements with no proof of ownership other than owned and didn't like, moved on, etc. Not that their position is not valid, but where's the what and why that we would like to read and learn about?

I've often thought of trading my 8900 in for a Hegel H390. I like the 8900 but prefer less of a warm sound which the 8900 does a good job of without tubes. I've also been watching the Michi line.

@jjss49 

fascinating to me what transpires on this thread, not sure if this is what @hilde45 intended with his op

I didn't know how people would react. Here is how I see things. As the article I posted weeks ago show (from a well research Japanese business journal article), the forces which cause hifi equipment to succeed or fail are based on a number of factors. They don't all need to be named, but the two relevant for this thread are (a) forum discussions and (b) reviewers (now including YouTube).

When I seen reviews on YouTube which make strong claims (to thousands of people --3.8k in just two days), I sometimes like to see what others with a stake in the hobby think about those claims. In the course of this, facts are sometimes corrected, bad reasoning is highlighted, and hidden motivations are ferreted out. Sometimes people just say they agree with the review for x, y, or z reasons.

Reviewers, dealers, makers are all in these forum discussions, too. They pay attention because they know that comments sometimes matter. Comments build or tear down products or even brands. 

Seeing so many people with experience and knowledge come to defend McIntosh is an interesting result. For the hobbyist out there considering McIntosh and searching for comments, they can now find both this thread and the YouTube video in question. This thread adds to the conversation and perhaps helps someone make a decision.

If this was just about "opinion," no one would care, no one would post. The issue is not "freedom of opinion" (banal phrase) but the "truth or falsity of claims." Sometimes those claims are about taste -- but we argue about taste all the time. Clearly, there's something at stake, and something we use to stand up our claims.

@hilde45: Insightful post as are many other in this thread.

What's refreshing about this conversation is the civility by all, and the amount of non-posters/researchers I like to refer to us as, myself included, that have come out to participate and support what has been in the past an unfair and unsubstantiated bash tactic on a company for which we should all be acknowledging a job well done if we are truly honest in our evaluation.

From the McIntosh critics, I requested detailed perspective to seek to understand their position since my experience is starkly contrary to the overall generic positions contributed. Other than one fairly detailed post, I don't think we received any detail of significance. So I'll initiate the ask again, what McIntosh product was it that did not provide satisfaction for you and why? What solution did you come to that enabled you to gain that satisfaction? 

I try not to make things too complicated and just use common sense. McIntosh has been very successful for a really long time and it continues to be. Resale value is excellent. It would be silly think their products don’t have appeal. People like nice things and aren’t stupid, but people like different things, some want looks, some what sound, some want status, some want what they want when they were growing up and didn't have money. But how can we argue that alot of people like McIntosh alot and have for a long time. To me the looks good versus sounds good thing is pretty stupid.

"To me the looks good versus sounds good thing is pretty stupid."

Right you are triodelover1499.

I don't get the Mac hate either. I don't have Mac but I don't bash it or bash other audio companies. So what if someone likes Mac? Some folks like Hegel, others don't. If you're happy with your Mac, that's all that matters. He's only expressing his personal opinion. And what's up with that hair!?

So which is better amps, Mac or Bryston? No one seems able or willing to answer this simple question.

How can anyone answer that for you?

It's personal taste and choice.

@szore ...the one you own )Mac, Bryston, et al...) or the one you contemplate getting....;)

I have a Mc 462 amp driving a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers with zero complaints.

It replaced an old Krell KSA-100S amp.  Both did a great job controlling the bass.

The only complaint I might have is that it is heavy.  Blue meters are a plus, no arguments there.

Among all the basically good amplifiers there is no absolute better amplifier, not only because the conditions where the evaluation is done matter...But because the relation between our needs and the other piece of gear are very specific...

And for example which is the best amplifier for the S.Q./ price ratio?

What is the better amplifier to pair with a specific speakers or turntable?

What is the amplifier you will enjoy the most at first listening?

Etc...

I can only speak from my own experience.  I have enjoyed a Mc2125 amp, C28 pre amp, (MR77 tuner which I'm not currently using), for more than 40 years.  I personally love the sound which I find to be warm but accurate for my tastes.  I have never had a problem with the equipment, and in taking it in for a recent cleaning, decided to audition, and then buy a new pair of the recently discontinued Wilson Sabrina (now SabrinaX) speakers.  They will arrive this next Tuesday.  I almost felt like I owed my Mac pieces the upgrade for the years of service.  Bought them when I was in my late 20's, and now "renewing my vows" to them in my early 70's.  I'm hoping for the same with the Sabrina's.  A lifetime of joy for me from this Mac stuff that still feels relevant and new.  Can't say that about many things!

I have a pair of MC501 monoblocs running my 3.6 Maggie’s.  I bought them used 15 years ago for 6K.   I could sell them tomorrow for 6K.  I will probably never sell them, but try that with any other brand amplifier.  
 

The reason the hold there value is that they are quality products that last a long time and have a following (and NO they are not all sheep).

I ran through a few amps before finding my 501s and they make my Maggie’s sing.
 

And to complete the circle, I have a C220 tube preamp bought about the same time that still sounds great and is worth more than I paid for it.  I just took a Ms300 music server out of my system that was still working to go to all streaming, but 15 years out of a computer based product is amazing.  FYI, my new MB20 works seamlessly with my iPad and iPhone.

OCD mikey will never sell any gear to a Mac owner, he's lost that fortune. Why hurt your own business like this. 

After decades of audio foolya' I'm finally, thankfully, at the point that when I can listen for hours on end and the music continues to sound lovely, that's all I care about.  I'm done with endless tube rolling, cable comparisons, this component compared to that component, SS vs Tubes vs Hybrids, and the endless roller coaster of searching for some "holy grail" (if you'll excuse my use of that trite and tired phrase.) Endless anecdotal hyperbole serves no one. Can there be a more subjective hobby than ours?

Now I simply want to listen to the music.  I find it liberating.

What most of you are forgetting is that this site does not have just Americans posting. Macintosh is far less purchased outside of America. It appears that some Americans have a loyalty towards the brand; that’s fine.

As I stated in a previous post in this thread, Macintosh is not for me; it would be pretty close to the bottom in the line of hi fi equipment I would consider.

Hmmm. I could say so many things….but I will not.

Good Morning @laoman 

Please do say many things. Is anything I said inaccurate? Is Macintosh as popular in Asia and Europe as the US? Are the only posters who post on this site of US Nationality? Do some Americans have a loyalty towards the Macintosh brand? Are any of my rhetorical questions wrong?

There's a dealer in Chicago who says that people buy Macs for the blue meters but the performance is not that great. Taken together with all of the unenthusiastic comments about Macs in this forum, I m only conclude that it's all about personal perception. My first "audiophile" level integrated amp (having graduated from a Kenwood receiver circa 1972) was a Mac MA6200, a tidy compact unit that packed tons of features - 5 band equalizer, 2 phono inputs, 3 pairs of speakers, all 3 of which I drove simultaneously in 3 rooms, loudness comp, headphone jack and more, all at 75 watts. It sounded great in my Teal  and Tannoy speakers. Next up was a MA6900 (200 watts), 5-band equalizer  driving my Focal 1027's - sounded great.  Presently I have a MA352 hybrid integrated (200 watts) driving the Focals. with upgraded cables, CD player and DAC,  - it sounds fantastic. . There are many high quality amps, pre-amps and integrateds out there, manufactured by great companies - Mac is one of them, blue meters and all.

Oh no wait the world is flat.

No really not sure about the rest of the world and I really do not care. Just as there are many brands in Europe and Asia that Americans have never heard of, they to would be low on an Americans list a viewed as a non factor when selecting a component. 
 

I am sure the folks at McIntosh could answer your questions.

Me I could careless I own gear that came from Sweden, Germany, Hungary and the USA.

Good Night and I would venture to guess 80% of the members here are North Americans. 

"I would venture to guess 80% of the members here are North Americans. "

So what? Are you suggesting that people of other nationalities do not have the right to post here?

@laoman ,

The Asian market for McIntosh is doing very well.  They sell a lot of units worldwide, and 50% of their products are shipped to other countries.  The factory has been running two shifts for a couple of years and the wait time for product is anywhere from 5-9 months.

"As I stated in a previous post in this thread, Macintosh is not for me; it would be pretty close to the bottom in the line of hi fi equipment I would consider."

Of course you wouldn't consider McIntosh laoman, you can't even spell it.

What a pathetic little reply. It must have taken all your brain cells to come up with that. By they way before you criticise my spelling, look at your punctuation. There should be a semi colon after "laoman".

"suggest you try to read more, and post less"

Strong suggestion that you post something of some worth.

Really pathetic. Because someone tells the truth about your beloved McIntosh some of you get defensive.

I know mc well and know modf8ng betterthen most Mc have pretty meters 

partsquality is nothing more then average , many of the mid priced gear not even made in NY ,try China ,not very good  they have been sold for over 10 years I believe to a Korean firm ,Mc is not what it used to be when Audiophiles owned it .

if you like. Pretty meters Luxman is better choice  and made in Japan.

Ive owned a decent amount of Mcintosh gear. The newest stuff is the best Mac gear Ive heard and owned - the C2700 paired with the MC462 was a nice combination. But for close to 17k for the pair "nice" just doesn't cut it. They are reliable, hold their resale and probably the prettiest gear on the market - hands down. But do they sound the best? My completely subjective response is... nope. Luxman, Hegel, LM and Pass Labs (to name a few) sound worlds better. Worlds. 

True McIntosh has more than a cult following .True the resale value is fantastic.True the build quality is pretty much there.I doubt for a lot there's no arguing that......but as far as being in the top tier of stereo makers worldwide they are not in the conversation.As a matter of fact they are not in the conversation of US makers either..Having said that I don't think we really  need another Mac post gettng lovers and haters butting heads again.

Of course you wouldn’t consider McIntosh laoman, you can’t even spell it.

You may want to take note that a bunch of Americans on this thread are spelling it wrong. I say this because you didn’t seem to have an issue with it until laoman posted.

Man initially posts his opinion without being rude or condescending and some of you jump all over him. Way to go Team America!