Thanks so much! I appreciate your reading my comments and thinking they are important.
In my former shop we sold Mc for a while. Jimmy Ryder (yes, Ryder Trucks--the son) had a shop in Miami and he was THEIR guy for many years (Hi-Fi Associates) so we did not get to keep the line since we were north of him about an hour (Boca Raton). In those days, manufacturers gave you a "territory" and even Mc was "fair trade." (You can look that up if you don’t know what it means.)
Anyway, I had a bunch of their newer gear and a bunch of their older gear (trade-ins on Audio Research). We listened to it all. The scope thing was cool until it broke. The tuner was OK--not the best, but OK. The older tube amps were less than transparent (to be kind) when it came to reproducing Lincoln Mayorga Direct-to-Disc albums. I don’t remember the pre-amps, but with SP3-A1’s all the rage at the time, I would guess they were not as accurate as the Audio Research ones were.
Reviews at the time from J. Gordon Holt and Henry Pearson et. al. were all pretty much the same--nice looking, well-built, not very accurate.
Do what you want, believe what you want. I heard what I heard, and that is that.
Sorry if you are not happy when presented with facts like many today. Life’s tough, right?
You didn't present any of those "facts" in your blanket comment which implied that their gear was purchased for looks rather than sound; and the story you tell me now is really ancient history.
Do you really believe that McIntosh has stood still since that time and not advanced their technologies, just as Audio Research has?
... many of the mid priced gear not even made in NY ,try China ,not very good they have been sold for over 10 years I believe to a Korean firm ,Mc is not what it used to be when Audiophiles owned it
Every time I get in the gear lust phase and start auditioning amps, McIntosh is always at the top of my list. I have never owned one but have several friends who have McIntosh. I have also auditioned several models (mostly integrated -- MA-5300, MA-8900, MA352, and a few others) in the last 3-4 years. I really liked the sound each time I listened to them, but in almost every case I was able to find something that I preferred for the same or lower cost. Two years ago, I almost bought an MA-8900 but after listening to Luxman 590-AXII, I preferred the Luxman sound by quite a substantial margin.
What I've come to realize is that when you consider the value proposition of a McIntosh amp you have to consider all the relevant aspects holistically: Sound quality + pedigree + reliability + resale value + eye candy appeal. The current prices for both new and used equipment is reflective of the value prop I mentioned. For many people, pedigree and looks might not be a big factor so they balk at the seemingly high prices compared to what you could get for similar or less money.
Having said that, McIntosh's longevity and sales numbers suggest that many people appreciate the full package the company offers. But overall I agree that if you remove the pedigree and resale value aspects from the equation, their amps are not any better or worse than anything else in the same price bracket.
I find it interesting how audiophiles criticise klipsch for being "too bright" but don't like mcintosh for being too warm and prefer their amps to bright?? Very confusing!
Buy a Mc and don't look back -just enjoy the music. Do any of you guys analyze the acoustic properties in a concert hall instead of simply listening to the orchestra?
That Dylan line comes to mind: "Nothing is better, nothing is best...." Oh, but then this wouldn't be an audiophool forum would it? :)
I daresay there are some good reasons why some brands are iconic and some are not. Why some brands are still in business and many are not.
I cannot imagine this has not been mentioned, as I skimmed through the 1st page and came here. The definition of an audiophile is : An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high fidelity sound reproduction. An audiophile seeks to reproduce the sound of a live, musical event / performance. This is at the heart of the matter. There is no mention of brand, or even price, in these definitions. If you care about the " sound ", you are an audiophile. Mac, to me, has a sound. So does Pass. I bring up Pass, because on another thread, someone did not " care for " the Pass sound. It ALL has a sound, and....our individual ears, all " want " a sound. Some have found it, with whatever gear they have, and others, are still on the search. Whatever makes you happy and, engages you to the musical performances we are listening to. There are many ways / pathways of getting there. Enjoy what you like.
McIntosh has just announced the replacement of the MA 8900 with the MA 8950. The new model has 50% greater dynamic headroom, similar to what they have done with their other newer models such as the MC462, MC611 and the MC 1.25. I would be curious how the 8950 would compare to the Luxman 590 AXii.
@laomanNo that is not what I was saying at ll. Just that with the majority being in North America hence the passion for McIntosh gear either way, and the popularity of the brand in this forum.
"I would venture to guess 80% of the members here are North Americans. "
So what? Are you suggesting that people of other nationalities do not have the right to post here?
In early 2017 I purchased a Nuforce STA 200, based on a mag review. After owning it for a month, with 24 / music running through it, I sold quite a number of power amps, locally, from my collection. A Mac 2105, with the wood case, was one of them. Compared to the Nuforce, it was muddy, spitty, edgy, closed in, and distracted me from my enjoyment of the music. Of course, I never had it serviced, although I did replace the speaker barrier strips with nice 5 ways ( that was not easy ), and replacing the power cord with a 12 gauge I made from HD stock ( very easy ). Cap replacement needed ? This comparison in my system, and many others, had me sell many amps from my collection. An audiophile acquaintance nearby owns a 452, and he LOVES it. I personally prefer dc coupled designs....
A MC2105 is between 45 and 55 years old. They were produced from 1967 to 1977. Comparing an unserviced old technology amp to anything not from that era is hard to do. I will say that a refreshed MC2105 has value n today’s market, not to mention demand. Can that be said of its contemporaries. Perhaps why McIntosh has been in business for over 70 years. The sound is not for all, but there is a huge following for the brand.
An MC2105 in good shape commands a ridiculous premium over its original retail, but if you own one it makes some sense. I think that it's foolish to pay what most sellers are asking if it hasn't had documented service, including at this age replacement of capacitors, and even transistors. If that maintenance is done, it is a pretty amazing amplifier, and holds up very well against a number of modern competitors.
Sitting here listening to my new MA8900 paired with a Roon Nucleus and Sonus Faber Olympica Nova V speaker setup. Fantastic combo. Oh, and for the haters, I’ll put my Rolex Explorer II I’ve owned for 20+ years and traveled all over the world with up against any watch for aesthetics, precision, and durability!
I go back to my Lexus comparison. Lexus owners, as with McIntosh don't have an inferiority complex. They enjoy what they have and don't feel the need to bash others. If you are at peace with your decision, then why bash others?
In my 40 years of experience with this hobby, Audiophiles seem to be more concerned with what others think of their decisions than what they truly enjoy. Why. Just be and enjoy.
I go back to my Lexus comparison. Lexus owners, as with McIntosh don't have an inferiority complex. They enjoy what they have and don't feel the need to bash others.
I agree, and I suspect that the YouTube guy would say "Enjoy what you want. It's a free country."
What he is claiming, though, is that while you're enjoying the Mc experience, you are foregoing better quality experience with other gear. In part, he says, you're taken in by the looks of Mc. In part, you're just stuck in a comfy cage. You've settled for lesser gear. Are you content? Sure. So are those who eat pork rinds and call them gourmet food. But you're missing out on the real audiophile experience that Mc. cannot deliver.
So, he's not bashing Mc owners, per se. He's pitying them for being stuck. And he's warning those not yet owning Mc gear -- or the other brands which are not truly audiophile as he defines it -- to steer clear of those audio cul-de-sacs.
I think the Mc fans here have more or less countered these claims. I'm just pointing out that he's not really bashing people so much as saying they're deluded in thinking they've gone into true audiophile territory.
Bigtex..I have an early 70s orange hand EcplororII along with a 1961 explorer 1 1016 and several other Rolex sports watches..I can come up with 6 or 8 watch brands better just off the top of my head so I would not get so cocky with your bolstering.
I am astounded by the focus people put on the gear...
I perfeclty know why now...
They dont know how to make the better with what they already own...
There is no relation between any system before and after acoustic treatment and acoustic control...NONE...
I dont give a dam about the gear now...
Give me any relatively good speakers, dac, and amplifier, i will make them sound very very good....Any gear...It is easier with the best for sure thats all....It is impossible with very bad cheap design also yes for sure...But i speak about any relatively good one...
Acoustic is the road not a branded name of amplifier save for ignorant reviewer...
It is like most people wanted to sell their taste in gear revealing their complete ignorance in acoustic...
Ok OP, no disrespect but that was a very ignorant post. None of my 8 pieces of Mc gear did I buy for looks. Nor am I stuck in any way in my decisions. Are you saying that you know for a fact that his Rolland 625's sound better in my system than my Mc 901's. You don't. This hobby is experiencing a renaissance of new growth and people like you are a detriment to this hobby and it potential based on your last post. Generic blanket statements of ignorance. That is the issue with these bash threads and why I chose to speak up. AG should realize their opportunity for growth is hindered by members like yourself.
Why must people try to fell superior by trying to diminish the choices of others. I would ask the posters who feel sorry for certain gear owners, would you fell sorry for me because I enjoy driving my 1958 Bugeye Sprite with power nothing over my twin turbo Mercedes?
Because they dont understand the process to create a real audiophile experience with almost any good gear...
And appearence and price tag is the rule among human not basic elementary listening experiments in acoustic...
Why must people try to fell superior by trying to diminish the choices of others. I would ask the posters who feel sorry for certain gear owners, would you fell sorry for me because I enjoy driving my 1958 Bugeye Sprite with power nothing over my twin turbo Mercedes?
My truck is awesome! Seriously, this is a silly thread. Buy what you like. Lots of great gear in the Mac price range. I would reckon there’s larger gaps and differences in high end speakers than high end amps.
I think the Mc fans here have more or less countered these claims. I'm just pointing out that he's not really bashing people so much as saying they're deluded in thinking they've gone into true audiophile territory.
AND there is the rub. Everyone has an opinion and as a few have pointed out, "Pick out the gear" and work from there. I could use just about any gear and work from there. Some start with Mac, some with Sansui like Master M.
To even suggest an audiophile is determined by the gear they own or don't own is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. THAT is the problem with this guy. He doesn't seen to understand statements just like that puts HIM in the not only the Midfi class but somewhat ignorant to what an audiophile is. It has ZERO to do with GEAR, it has to do with the persons ability to excel in spite of or in lieu of money or gear. Knowing 1/2 the sound is the room just how far does one part (say a power amp) costing 2k vs one costing 40k, IF 50% is the room and the actual amps are 5-10% of the SQ? Same with cables. I've seen people budget according to "CABLES" total BS. The point of diminishing returns happens so quickly after 300.00 for me the .25% per 1000.00 spent just isn't worth the 100.00 dollar room improvement and get 3-5% return in SQ.
I've strapped into systems that the sweet spot was so small your head went between two cushions above your ears..
The hours spent on some of these peoples rigs is crazy, and the money to sometimes, BUT sometimes NOT! Look at Master M.. FOR PEANUTS. A system for listening to music.. 523.41 cents :-) He added 4 dollars for ear plugs..
Thank you. As I stated, I certainly do not hate McIntosh. Why on earth would anyone hate any product unless you bought it and were then extremely disappointed? I assume those that buy it are for the most part not disappointed.
I would ask other posters one question though, why does this company feel the need to sell merchandise? Do you not find this ridiculous and demeaning? Would you believe they even sell McIntosh covid masks?
So, he's not bashing Mc owners, per se. He's pitying them for being stuck.
This is what irritates me about this hobby. This self crafted ideal that certain equipment and/or bands are superior over everything else. The "everything else" category is all trash and you're unintelligent suckers for purchasing said gear. As @mahgister likes to remind everyone, it's not only the gear that is important.
To my ears McIntosh gear is neutral. It allows me to hear just the music. That is why I am in this hobby. I am here for the music.
What he is claiming, though, is that while you’re enjoying the Mc experience, you are foregoing better quality experience with other gear. In part, he says, you’re taken in by the looks of Mc. In part, you’re just stuck in a comfy cage. You’ve settled for lesser gear. Are you content? Sure. So are those who eat pork rinds and call them gourmet food. But you’re missing out on the real audiophile experience that Mc. cannot deliver.
So, he’s not bashing Mc owners, per se. He’s pitying them for being stuck. And he’s warning those not yet owning Mc gear -- or the other brands which are not truly audiophile as he defines it -- to steer clear of those audio cul-de-sacs.
this is elitist b-s -- it is as intellectual dishonest as it is self-serving
properly functioning mac gear of ANY generation is absolutely good enough to fulfill the audiophile pursuit - a garrard record player, a dynaco iv tube amp and a pair of jbls or bozaks from the 1960's do it... let’s get real -- we are here today because people 50-60 years ago desired and pursued great music played beautifully in homes for enjoyment - the fact that it has an aesthetic quality and looks cool too is totally besides this central point
the gear matters (imo it is too strong to say it doesn’t, it needs to meet some suitable level of quality, in spite of what some here would like to think), and of course, so does the room, and most importantly, so does the attitude and willingness to desire it and pursue it, with time, effort, money -- these things need to come together harmoniously
My last comment here. Those of you in this forum that post this elitist BS only do it because you know it "stirs the pot" in this forum. I guess it makes you feel better about yourselves to insult and belittle the choices of others. Nice maturity level.
I do not have a REALLY deep listening experience with Mac Intosh (there are several lines of products in the last decades so different ) but as a reputation I vuold compare it to Apple ( they are both MAC 😂) ... a class apart. That's why some people adore them, others hate them 🤷♀️
Why the PM to me directly instead of just asking in front of everyone in the thread? It is elitist BS to insult others because of what they prefer. This thread isn’t about bashing McIntosh gear. It’s about bashing people that own McIntosh gear.
Ok OP, no disrespect but that was a very ignorant post. None of my 8 pieces of Mc gear did I buy for looks. Nor am I stuck in any way in my decisions. Are you saying that you know for a fact that his Rolland 625’s sound better in my system than my Mc 901’s. You don’t. This hobby is experiencing a renaissance of new growth and people like you are a detriment to this hobby and it potential based on your last post. Generic blanket statements of ignorance. That is the issue with these bash threads and why I chose to speak up. AG should realize their opportunity for growth is hindered by members like yourself.
"People like you." Well, thanks a lot. But you’re confusing what I’m asserting with what I take the video to be asserting. You’re "shooting the messenger." Such misreadings hinder the discussion. Re-think it.
Those of you in this forum that post this elitist BS only do it because you know it "stirs the pot" in this forum.
I assume you’d agree that there is a difference between pointing out what is being said with agreeing or endorsing what is being said. You can see from the OP that I’m not endorsing. It’s being said in the video, it’s fatuous and hobby-damaging nonsense, and I’ve called it out. Others here (like @jjss49@oldhvymec and all the other Mc owners) have provided the disproof. It’s called a thorough debunking and in my opinion, it’s better to debunk BS than pretend it doesn’t exist. At this point, I’d consider the video debunked.
I can say this from experience, you have to experience ugly, gothic and then WORSE than ugly, to know what it is.
Me if it's that UGLY, I didn't go around it to begin with.
Mac is the finest gear on the planet, you have the right to be wrong, I will give you that.. But I'll recommend a little bigger spoon, Mac guys have heard it all from the jealous and of course uninformed..
I'm looking at a pair of brand new 24K gold studded cases for MC60s. Rare as hens teeth. Any body want to one up that? From a classy group in Canada that keeps the flames fanned with top notch repair parts.. They actually have a jewelers polish rating.
It's not lonely owning Mac as you can see.
No I don't have any Mac paraphernalia other than a Bulldog from a MACK Tractor..
I bet Mikey would be open to someone bringing some McIntosh amps to replace the amps he has in his system. I would bet money that the McIntosh amps would not sound nearly as good as his current amps sound. Just my guess, but Mikey would have McIntosh amps in his system if they sounded better than what he has. He was just giving his educated opinion….nothing else.
I am a fairly hard core audio guy. MacIntosh has place in our world. I remember as a teen in the early 1970's I would DROOL at the C28 pre-amp. Father of a friend of mine knew I was an audio nut. He asked me to help him pick out a really nice system. Easy, all MacIntosh - A C28 plus whatever was their top of the line tuner and amp with meters. JBL L200 speakers. Dual 1219 turntable and some super nice Sure cartridge. For 1974 this was a serious system.
Later that year I got a job working for AR (Acoustic Research) and I started to hear things differently. Like most of us our listening matured as did the equipment. By 1979 I was deep into Mark Levinson, particularly his first class-a amps. Add 40 years to that and assume I have listened to some fine systems over the years.
Recently my friends father that bought the system in 1974 passed away. We were at his house and couldn't resist putting on some records. The warm blue lights of the C28 looked great. There was a new LP12 and better cartridge. The L200's and old MacIntosh still put on a hell of a fine performance.
That system worked, and continues to, for forty plus years. Lots of great listening, lots of parties. My friend is moving the system to his summer house in Maine.
He has a super nice current audio system - but the old C28 and L200's will live on.
We must think Hilde the OP to have put this video here to awake our attention...
He knows very well that the focus on the gear is the main FIRST necessity when we create our own system but it is also our first limitation when we begin...This limitations or characteristic of our gear choice will be compensate by the acoustic correct tuning for them anyway...
Acoustic is the thing that matter more than any gear choice because any relatively good choice of gear will do...
But the ultimate S.Q. will come from acoustic treatment and control not from the gear...
People dont understand that really, it is normal, they NEVER did a room by tuning it to assist the gear by themselves, then they never contemplate the complete transformation of the gear... COMPLETE transformation...Going from a nude room to a room made synergetically to serve the specific gear for our specific ears... At the end the objective result is also a completely subjective one... It is NOT a contradiction it is a PROCESS....
Wow, the OP hit a response grand slam with this one. I can't imagine why he was so taken with this odd little 'editorial', but, it brings to mind a point that many of us have thought about at one time or another.
From my experience, I can’t argue with that notion. Who hasn't looked at Mac stuff at one time or another & just said wow? Knowing better doesn’t stop me from having always wanted a room with a gorgeous Mac Stack, but when reality sets in, I know I’d just be buying some really cool looking and expensive decoration when that money would be better served buying something sonically spectacular.
Mac guys are hard core right? The real "Marantz" crowd makes Mac guys look like beggars in the streets. Talk about hard core. THEY love their Marantz Tube gear. Try to buy, some of that gear.. They don't even list their gear any more, they just pass it amongst themselves. They don't even call it gear. :-)
How does it really sound? Like Marantz tube gear. Yup sure does.
The worst is people commenting highly costly gear in non specifically controlled room ...They delude themselves listening the difference between amplifiers for example instead of creating a specific environment for a specific amplifier and not for another one...They ignore the acoustic power to bent the room in relation to a gear choice...
The consequence is they listen more to the sound of the chosen gear than to the music coming from the room.... When we read their review it is evident....
The truth is i prefer to keep my 500 bucks Sansui/Mission system with my controlled room not because my system is better, this would not be a true statement nor a meaningful one, but because my system optimzed give me a ratio S.Q./price over the roof already even if their potential S.Q. may be better...
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