Yes, I do but I need to hear the system first before I put the final tune on it.
Do you consider cables to be a "component" of your system?
Meaning, do you think that cabling (AC/InterConnects/SpeakerWire) should be considered a component that is integral to your system?
I have probably as much money in cabling and fuses as I do in most of my components (if not more).
Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that cables don't make a difference. I disagree and there's nothing you can say or do that will change my mind, so save it for another thread, please.
I just wondered if you had to recommend a set up to someone (who wanted a nice stereo), would you consider cabling to be essential in your build price and your recommendations? If so, would you consider the cost of the cables to be on par with the cost of a component?
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I always upgrade speakers (every 2 or 3 cycles) first, then components, then cables, interconnects, power cords last. This reflects the typical degree of effect on tne sound. Occationally an interconnect or cable will have a large outsized effect… but not typically.
So, over time the interconnects would typically represent 10 - 20% the value of the component. I usually try enough different brands to make sure they sound the best. So, at this point my speakers cost $32K - cables $5K, average component cost $20K, interconnects $3K, and average power cord $1.2K. I have tried a variety of interconnects. For instance, a $17K interconnect on a $17K component. The difference was subtle but important. I was not remotely tempted because a $34K component would have netted a huge improvement in sound … while tne same investment in interconnect was minuscule in comparison. |
yes, as i do the room, the rack, power supply and so on ... it all matters but experience tells you what aspects matter more vs less... so as not to let the tail be wagging the dog... just like in life, smart folks know what is really important, and don’t sweat the little stuff unnecessarily, or let worries about such get out of proportion |
I do consider them to be a part of my system. But my room is a much bigger part of my system. In my opinion, one really cannot know what cable choices to make until one has stabilized the room factor. Some cannot change their rooms, but if they can, they should do the room first before trying to fix problems with cables. |
There is a lot of focus on an umbilical cable used for connecting devices. These are essential and when the correct ones are discovered, are Capable of creating a impression that seemingly is a benefit to system. These are only one proportion of the Signal Path, and there are other considerations that can create an impression that rises above the impression the Cable can make. There is the Visual element that can be easily identified and the element that requires a more invasive approach. The Cables Connectors either RCA or XLR can be looked at, Low Mass with Pure Copper Pins, is in my mind, the most desirable metal to be used for the Connectors Pins. Searching the Web can find connectors with OCC Pins in use. The RCA or XLR Connectors on the Chassis are, in my mind, best if Low Mass, Low Eddy and with Pure Copper Pins . Searching the Web can find connectors with OCC Pins in use. There are Copper and Silver Wires today produced as OCC and there are later Generation Design Wires such as PC Triple C. Wires from the three above, used on the circuits signal path will be quite capable of offering a presentation that will really show off a well thought out selection for a Umbilical Cable and its assembly, especially if the Connectors used on both Cable and Chassis are used that are a high performance spec'. These methods are not usually seen as a discussion, but when the experience of such changes are encountered, the impact of these is quite mind boggling and a real head scratcher. Trying to describe how a couple of small changes has made such a forceful impression, where betterment is undoubtedly present, is not a subject I excel at, but luckily I converse with some who can make it known quite comprehensibly in a layman's wording. I have no dispute about the descriptions on offer, it certainly matches the impression made at the time of demonstration. |
They are but if your system is bright, for example, the last thing you want to do is add a bright cable into the mix. |
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I view cables like tires on a car. The better the car the more the tires matter, and if you put crappy tires on a good car they undermine a lot of the strengths you bought the car for in the first place. And just as with cables in the context of an overall audio system, the characteristics of the tires need to work well with the suspension/handling characteristics of the car or performance is compromised. This is how I explain cables to my non-audiophile friends and they seem to get it even if they’re still a little skeptical. |
@soix Very well summarized. Very true. |
@soix That was an excellent analogy I concur. |
In the real world, “component” simply means a part, any part, of a larger whole. In audiophile vernacular, the word component has come to be more commonly used when referring to a box. When someone here asks if cables are components, they appear to be asking whether or not they are as important to the sound as a box or perhaps as a speaker. The answer varies by person. I think the 10% rule presumes the system buyer has a limited budget and that they should spend 90% of their budget on speakers and boxes. Up to you how you spend your money. For myself, I have found that once you have a system you like, spending a much higher percentage on cable can bring very worthwhile gains. |
Definitely, I’ve had cables that change the whole listening experience for better or worse. Lower gauge cables seem to make a big impact. Going from 14/15 gauge down to something half that will provide so much more depth. A low gauge power cord, same thing. One thing that is supposed to really change things is doubling interconnects with a y splitter. I’m not sure why this is considered so effective other than halving the resistance, but the “Schroeder Method” as they call it has been a game changer for some. |
I consider them as "accessories" . I have been making my own AC cords and interconnects for years now with great results. There’s some good DIY recipes out there that will cost you a fraction of a commercial available cable but still, it is not as cheap as one would think. I have also tried a few cables from famous cable brands with mixed results. Cables can of course help to bring out the best of your components but they will never be a better solution than a component replacement. One lesson learned is to let a new cable burn-in long enough (>100 h or more) so you can really judge its effect on your system. What your hear on day 1 of using a new cable in your system will be very different after a few hundreds hours of usage. As someone pointed out, ROI on cables is a diminishing affair so there’s an equilibrium one must think about before spending too much on this adventure. |
I purchased a siltech cable burn in box approximately a year ago. I personally believe that has been the best purchase in hi-fi I have made as far as sound quality goes. Scary how much better a cable sounds after it has been left on the machine for a week. Even cable that I have run for twenty years and played the system every third night of at least two hours. After that many years and that much time by common wisdom they should have been burned in but large gains after a week on the siltech machine. Had audio connection build me a lowercord burn in machine ot arrived a week ago. I have a power cord on it now I will see what happens with it as well.
At times I wonder when people say cables don't make a difference if they are running lamp cord for speaker wire and the free interconnects that came with a cheap Sony cd player back in the day. If so it is quite easy to see the difference in cables when a person moves up to entry level hi-fi cables. The first couple of hundred dollars makes a huge difference. A person doesn't want to go to far up the wire line with more basic equipment higher the wire the more reveling it is of the sound of the component. Many times a reference grade wire makes a basic component sound bad but what you are hearing is the component not the wire. That is the skill in choosing a hi-fi system is understanding what is sounding wrong and figuring out what to replace. The other skill needed is to be able to eat your own personal mistakes and make changes just because you paid money for something doesn't mean that it is good or that it is a match for your system. Taking your loss and moving on is hard for many audio files..
Regards |
On a somewhat related note. I purchased a ong run of an interconnect, used, and had them re-termed at the factory (Kimber in this case) to yield multiple pairs of shorter interconnects that I can use at a bargain price. The other method I've used is to buy the "older" generation of an interconnect just after the "New and improved" models are introduced. I've saved 40% on new cables like this. These tactics help take some of the sticker shock out of high end cables.
Cheers
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@coralkong - YES! - cables are components and very important ones at that The world of cables has changed tremendously in the past couple of years. Zavfino
In-Akustik and Hijiri
Proucts from In-Akustik and Hijiri will elevate high-res systems to excellent levels of performance There are other brands, but simply search these forums for member feedback on all three of these brands and you will find very positive feedback Don’t be fooled into thinking cables have to COST a certain percentage of overall system budget
Regards Steve |
Yes - but the least bang for buck. By a long way. Since I DIY with electrostatics, I can use nichrome wire for speaker cables instead of a tuning resistor - so effectively no speaker cables at all. For line level, Canare Starquad microphone cable. The cross linked polyester insulation has very low dielectric absorption, which is quite a lot of what we listen to. Their shielding is also the best. |
No, but I sort of agree with the analogy made by @soix
Yes, but only to the extent that cables are needed to operate the system. However, not unlike equipment stands/racks, footers, room treatments, and other auxiliaries, cables can be changed/upgraded over time and very few here have purchased their "final" cables at the time they originally assembled their system components.
Not even close. I have found that different cables sound differently in my system but the impact cables have on the overall sound of the system IMO is much less than the impact of the individual components or speakers. As with @norco74 , I have made my own cables for years from both manufactured bulk cables and from scratch, but I have also purchased manufactured cables at mid to upper price ranges by companies like Cardas, PAD, Isoclean, Furutech, HT, AZ, TWL, and more. Some, but not all, of the cables I have made myself have equaled those higher priced manufactured cables I have owned, and in some cases they bettered them (i.e., one of the interconnects I constructed is currently used by a well-regarded equipment manufacturer in their personal system). My point is that cables do sound different but IMO spending a lot of money on cables is not a prerequisite or a guarantee of good sound. |
Of course, they are components, and very important ones. Speaking of preamp and amp, I would first upgrade power cords and then the interconnects in between them. In other words, first improve power supplies and then do the link. If buying used, 1m pair interconnects or 1.5m power cord should not usually cost more than $1k each, unless your set-up is quite extreme. Examples are Wywires Diamond and older Purist Audio Dominus. Yeah, I got both. |
A new religion appeared in First World countries in the late Seventies. With the arrival of Monster and Discwashrr Gold Ens the Great Cable Race was off and running! Unlike horse racing there is NO measurement system that proves cable A is superior or different from cable B. The belief in sonic differences among cables is ENTIRELY faith-based, just as religion is! And just as devisive! The first person to invent a measuring system for these differences that the "golden ears" crowd claims to hear will qualify for the Nobel Prize in Physics! |
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For anybody expressing an interest in what might occur in their set up if they look into and follow up with making a few exchanges of Cables between devices. It does not take a set off Golden Ears, to determine if the time spent carrying out an investigation has proven to be beneficial. Taking the time to try out different experiences and getting a listen to the system with a slight rearrangement is a time well spent. |
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Edelbrock and electronic fuel injection…When Jesus was young Carburetters were in. It’s funny you should say listening isn’t necessary, does that equate to there is no difference ? Perhaps myth like Jack’s Magic beans and Bilbo‘s ring ? I will say one should stay away from carburetter cleaner and Audio BS ! |
@coralkong Absolutely, interconnect cables are playing very important in my system! My preference for signal cables lies on well known for reliability/noise connector brands (professional series Neutrik etc), impedance, flexibility, and cable shielding effectiveness (measured in dB, good cable EM shielding should be >80dB). Established connector manufacturers have better contact quality with higher contact pressure, and use proper plating technology. Power cord has to be a short as possible, and to use proper connectors at the ends. In some cases I use power cords combined with EM filter, and with option to disconnect ground to avoid ground loops. In many cases claims of improvements after replacing cable are real for SQ, but are result of mechanical contact cleaning from oxides and dirt, during plug/unplug procedure. In that case blind test, where parts A-B compared multiple times, does not show reliable results. Cables need to be managed by grouping into power/speaker/signal bunch, to reduce background noise. |
Wow..so what your saying is keep things tight, clean, and appropriate size. Separate power from interconnects, speaker wires, that sort of thing. All of which should be common knowledge and applied. A decent piece of equipment will have decent cables end of story. I know of no manufacture of quality product that sells that product with junk power cables. Having said that why would anybody assume they know more than engineers of said product and swap out parts with bogus Parts at ridiculous prices to support a BS industry. People will pay for what ever turns there crank so be it, let’s dive into more important threads 🧵 Perhaps weather black equipment sounds better than silver, end The 40 year war…Lol Cheers |
On the contrary, I have a hard time thinking of a manufacturer that sells their products with decent power cables.
They don’t, but you’re assuming the engineers chose the power cable shipped with the product because they thought it was the best. If electronics manufacturers shipped their products with better cables it’d increase the price significantly and there’s no guarantee that providing a better power cord would work well in the context of the customer’s system and their personal tastes. Manufacturers of good equipment know that cables are a crapshoot given those significant variables and that their customers either already have or will choose their own aftermarket PCs so providing better cords and increasing the price of their product accordingly makes no sense. |
That is C… Manufactures ship their equipment with a AC supply cables that complement their equipment period ! They do not assume people are going to an aftermarket BS company to improve the quality of their equipment. I’ve never seen that written in sales brochures or have I heard it brought up in conversations with quality equipment sales people. If there was any truth to this BS cable stuff why would manufactures not spend and charge extra for an earth shattering better cable Full well assuming A customer has the money and will be purchasing it from some aftermarket schmuck. That does not make any sense, sort of pay me to hear the best of my equipment or go pay somebody else because they’re gonna make it better no logic in that not to mention no science to it either. The only reason a good quality manufacturer isn’t involved with this whole cable BS thing is just that there’s no science behind it no consistent reality so essentially it is BS. And finally The cord supplied with an individual component has absolutely no possible way of affecting Other components in the system including their individual sound quality or characteristics. 98 % placebo !! |
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Maybe you can then explain why none — NONE — of the electronics manufacturers use the cables that that come with their equipment at audio shows where they obviously want their equipment to sound its best? They ALL use pricey aftermarket PCs. Hmmm. Clearly must be a conspiracy of some sort. |
