Do you consider cables to be a "component" of your system?

@1971gto455ho -

"I drive Audis very expensive Audis"

You have good taste in automobiles! Not sure what your audio system consists of but... Have you ever tried aftermarket cables? If not, you should give it a try. Don't cheap out on them though... Let us know what audio equipment you're using & we can give you some recommendations. 

All the best to you

I guess it depends on your definition of a component. 

Does a component need to be powered so it does something?

Obviously pretty things sell, don’t have to be a rocket scientist to realize that.
 

Yeah, that must be it because if you think the crappy black PCs that come with most equipment sound good then the rest of us surely must be wrong and kidding ourselves if we hear improvements with more expensive cables. Silly us. 

@boxer12 

For many reasons…I’ve vintage, and have been selectively buying. Now own Pristine second owner last model run Infinity IRS Beta speakers. Yamaha power PC5002m mid’s / high panels, PC4002M woofer towers. 4 x infinitesimal 0.2’s, Yamaha Pc2002m power. Well treated 22x36x8 room electrically well engineered. Many hours fine tuning…it’s a hum and noise free absolutely Clean sounding system. I’m not naïve there is better out there but man would you have to pay to duplicate the quality of sound here. Cutting off the hardwired hefty Commercial PC’s would be horrible and why ? 
 

Cheers

@1971gto455ho -

You're certainly interested in good sound & are enjoying your system, cool... That is what it's about.

FWIW I wouldn't cut any of your PC's either. It may however be worthwhile to check out some used "Colorado" IC's from Audioquest, or even "Golden Presence" IC's from Cardas, just to see if you like the sound quality these bring to your system.  

@1971gto455ho ,

I can appreciate that you don’t think that AC cords (or any cables) can make a difference in a system and are just shiny audio jewelry.

I am a big fan of older Yamaha amplifiers myself.

The models you listed are PA amps from the 80’s. Hardwired AC cabling and those (unfortunately) little speaker connection screws that Yamaha always seemed so hell-bent on using.

They have cool VU meters. In terms of raw power, vintage Yamaha’s are beasts. But they’re certainly not what I would call refined (or transparent) by any stretch. And unless you have kept up on maintenance (being that they are from the 80’s), I’d be willing to bet they are so far out of original spec that they’re probably not worth refurbishing back to manufacturer’s original values.

Which is the problem with vintage gear.

So, I’m not surprised that you can’t hear a difference. It’s impossible for you to try a different AC cable. Unless you’ve modified the amplifier’s speaker terminals, it’s pretty much impossible for you to try any after-market pre-terminated high end speaker cables as well.

I’m glad you enjoy your system, but your continual denial and arguing that cables don’t make a difference for anyone else in the world doesn’t hold a whole lot of weight.

I would be willing to bet that if you popped in a newer, higher-end amp/preamp, etc...you would not only be able to tell a difference, you would be floored by the differences.

But until then, you do you, but please stop telling the rest of us what we can and can’t hear.

FWIW, I'm a Jaguar kind of guy. 😎 

No

@coralkong.

Kind of presumptuous, I never said cables of any kind don’t make a difference, I do have issues with some of the ideology and sales promotion. Rest assured my equipment has been refurbished and upgraded internally and to any possible higher standards available. Having said that many accomplished professionals are of the opinion that some of these components exceed The values of many amplifiers currently available. Your opinion ‘Transparent or refined’ is just that..your opinion ! And I might add based on valueless speculation as you’ve not had the pleasure of listening to this system. There has been effort, research, and money put into this project and you can certainly hear it. And finally if you have an XKE V12 I am in awe, aside from that they generally ride like a wheel barrel, that’s based on my opinion Lol. 

Cheers

@coralkong 

Ps: The Pc 5002m amplifier is internally a carbon copy of the 101m amplifier and most people that actually know Yamaha product of the past realize that this was no PA amplifier. Feel free to make comparisons with today’s standards.

Cheers 

No

Although I would tell them they'd need an additional $50 for interconnects and speaker cable. But there is enough technical and blind test proof that cables are irrelevant if within specs for the application.

Yes, definitely

Quality cables are table stakes.

The more important aspect of cabling for me is organizing them by type and running them together. For my system, this has increased fidelity and satisfied my OCD at the same time.

I said separating them by type (power, interconnects, phono, cat5, speaker). The induction issue was caused by IC's on top of power cables, exactly what I am avoiding.

Try removing all the cables from your system and see how well it performs.....

If, therefore, cables are an essential part of a system, surely it makes just as much sense to optimize them as it does to optimize the boxes that they connect.

......your room acoustics is one of the biggest variables in your own personal sound reproduction and will have a significant effect on the overall sound of your system. The OP has asked if your cables should be considered as part of your system and the answer is .....yes. I do believe that and in my opinion, that Audiogon members who have not according to them witnessed or have heard the  '' placebo effect '' of what cables can do for a system have not really listened to any really resolving or well assembled systems and therefore make those statements. To the Audiogon member who said that he equated the tires of his car to their the cables in his system was spot on as better tires do make a difference in car's performance was dead spot on with that analogy. The other members who drive classic cars or expensive Audi's I am can agree that they have invested some money in better tires for those cars to get the best out of their systems which I do think can be '' scientifically '' measured but obviously can feel the difference in performance so why not cables if that is your argument  ? You do not to spend $20,000 for a power cord but one that is in your budget will on a cumulative basis as your upgrade your  cables your overall system and its enjoyment can only get better.       

@garebear 

Do moderne Radial tires exceed the ability of antiquated bias tires.. absolutely ! Pure Mechanical science is undeniable, as well no room for a Debate of any kind with Qualified test drivers. There is also no room for placebo of any kind it’s literally night and day with regards to the tires. This dose not equate in any way to the Forever debate with power cables in audio. To much some Hear it some don’t, mechanical testing that may or may not be audible…and the placebo effect. Tires and audio cables Analogy…. ridiculous ! And The idea that a person retrofits cables upon purchase hears a difference to be further enhanced with the spending of considerably more.. now that’s debateable placebo inc. How many years has this discussion been going on ? No definitive results yet ? One thing we can all agree on it’s been a money maker LOL

.......'' considerably more '' as what has been indicated in a thread is a relative  term. To upgrade from the original stock power that was provided when you bought your equipment may be acceptable for some and that is their prerogative. I have indicated that by upgrading your cables from the original stock cable and doing that say on a cumulative basis without spending a "' King's Ransom " will possibly improve your overall enjoyment of your system ; which is a subjective assessment. How do I know this ....I just spent the last month listening to the Hemingway Creation power cord, the Siltech Ruby Mountain II power cord and also the Shunyata Omega QR(s) power cord and also last but not least the Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cord. They were all placed on an Esoteric Grandioso K1x Cd player and all produced a different sound. All 4 were at different price points. I listened to them for extended periods of time before I made a decision. The decision I made is subjective as as well as personal and was also witnessed by others ( some non-audiophiles ) who could hear the difference. Was it scientifically evaluated in an anechoic chamber no ......but in my own living room a definite  difference was heard between them. Which cable did I end up with ?  ......the least expensive one, but the one that was most musical to my ears ; The Cardas Clear Beyond XL. Cables do make a difference but if you do decide to upgrade your cables ; be your own judge and make the decision which is best for you and your finances. They they should be considered as part of your whole system......             

Yes, unfortunately.  I didn’t want to spend significant $ on cables but when one reaches a level of transparency it’s makes an obvious difference.
 

I acknowledge that different cables sound different. And that there are better cable designs for different jobs, like turntable interconnects. But I don’t sweat them like I do my speakers, first and foremost, or my other components. So yes, they are part of the system, but not the part where I invest a lot of time or money. I do think it’s possible that once you have a great team of electronic and speakers, they can add the last polish on the sound. You don’t use them to get there in the first place.

There must be something wrong with me,but to my way of thinking its just a no brainer,how can the quality of and fashion in which the cables that are  interconnecting the different components or send the signal out to your speakers not be important? So then by that rationale it must also not be important to use the best materials and manufacturing methods in the building of the individual components themselves right? 

@1971gto455ho 

There is a place to put photos of your system and identify your system components under your UserID.

@bikeboy52 

”its just a no brainer“

Congratulations, your thought process about the importance of cables is exactly the outcome desired by the marketing departments of audio cable manufacturers. 

Marketed for……  Bingo !     Slap of the thread

Cheers

Wait what ? So Mitch 2 in the time  since you started the “ usb cable play offs” thread back in 2016 and said “ in general I found the Totaldac usb cable to have excellent clarity, body, tone and energy while the  ifi Gemini cable leans more towards the dark side with a mix of richness, fullness and darkness while still displaying a sufficient level if detail” your views on cables have changed ? Excellent clarity, body, tone and energy?

@bikeboy52

Good call out. I have always maintained that different cables sound differently, and I did like the sound of that USB cable, at that time. I still own it but have been using the TWL split USB lately. As an example of different sounding cables, I have tried a lot of speaker cables and I am partial to the sound of multiple, individually insulated, small gauge, solid core, OCC copper wires, in foamed PE, i.e., Harmonic Technplogy speaker cables. While I hear differences in cables, IMO they have nowhere near the impact on the sound of a system as the components and speakers, and after trying a bunch of manufactured cables and making quite a few of my own, I believe a lot of the marketing hype related to cables sets unrealistic expectations with the intent of leading buyers onto a continual upgrade merry-go-round. However, I am also fine with others who want to spend their money on expensive cables - to each their own.

“Congratulations,your thought process about the importance of cables is exactly the outcome desired by the marketing department’s of audio cable manufacturers “just checked out your system ( beautiful btw ) what do they get for a cable cooker?maybe I’ll chug a little a that Kable Kool aid and get drunk enough to pop for one a those.

Thanks for the comments about my system.  It has been a journey, and certainly some missteps on the way to achieving what I am happy with.  Along the way I found that, for me and the music I like, it is mostly (but not entirely) about tone and dynamic impact so my current rig does those really well.  

I have done a fair amount of DIY, and particularly wrt making cables, and so I was an early adopter of the Cable Cooker just to be sure that I was hearing the cables I made at their best without waiting a month for them to burn in. Back then, cable burn in seemed to be a big deal (and still is to some extent) so having a cooker was a necessity for any “serious” cable builder.  I admit that I still use it - maybe the longest continuous run of any single part of my system - shout out to Alan Kafton!

Cables can be a tool to pinpoint weaknesses in your system. They can be more than a component - they can be a tool to perfect your setup.

I get it just like water witching except using a piece of wire, will 12 gauge Romax work ? Lol

Cheers 

I think Romax is more commonly found in sex shops , there is however a type of sheathed electrical wire rated for residential applications called Romex and yes one could use it as speaker wire.

Oops that’s what you get when you Siri auto text and don’t check…lazy. Did use it back in a day, looks bad hard to work with glad I grew up finances to boot. 

@mitch2 Nice system. That is a big commitment to SRA  isolation platforms. I have one under my turntable. Made a very definite and important improvement.

@ghdprentice - Yeah, SRA is a good company.  Mine are the Ohio-Class XL model.  I sold some Lamm amps to a gentleman who owned them and didn’t need them anymore so we made a trade plus cash deal.  They were the perfect size for my SMc amps so I sent them to SRA with detailed info about the SMc amps (weight, dimensional footer locations, and location of the heavy transformer) and they reconfigured the platforms (whatever that entails) so that they are a custom fit for my amps.  They also removed their tall’ish feet and replaced them with their low profile style feet so they fit on my stand.  They said it doesn’t matter what footers are under the amps if they are supported on the SRA platforms.

@mitch2 

Yes, SRA is a top of the line company. 

I always wondered why there is never a discussion of the quality of cabling/wires  used “inside” the components we buy when discussing external cables/wire. Just thinkin’

Absolutely yes! This weekend a friend dug out an old system from his garage which sounded very ordinary with some budget speaker cable and interconnects. In passing he told me he was about buy a new amp to drive the speakers. I pottered over there with some old Cardas and no name speaker cables and saved him 2k! Everyone was a winner. As an aside I feel quite sorry for people who can't hear the difference in cabling or are so tired of life that they no longer feel the thrill of the chase. It is amusing that these types resort to irrelevant measurement arguments. I ask you has science ever provided a decent argument for consiousness?

@larry5729, my power cord go winh Luxman M800u when manufactor sale to me is Luxman PJA 15000 power cord. It cost 200000 JPY (Around Usd180). When i replace it  by a Analysis Plus Power Oval 2 (cost around  Usd 400) I don't hear a difference.

I don't think all the stock power cord are bad.

All the best!

I do.

@vinylmisterd +1

@vinylmisterd - It's very important as well, but much harder to replace. 

@vinylmisterd

Your supposed to learn to hear the difference... Power finds its way into your house Romex whatever, ya stick a 6’ piece of cable it miraculously goes to work correcting, beautifying sound. Don't worry about what's inside your component obviously it also has the ability to to adjust and control any AC to DC, controls, wiring, etc. down stream. There’s hundreds out there no scam start testing....LOL

Twiddle dee twiddle dumb beat the audio humdrum

Me 

@vinylmisterd - re:

I always wondered why there is never a discussion of the quality of cabling/wires used “inside” the components we buy when discussing external cables/wire. Just thinkin’

There are those that go to great lengths in replacing wires inside their components, but it is more of a niche segment or for the more specialised DIY community.

• Many Tube gear owners will rewire their comonents, which is made easier if point to point wiring is employed
• Ans YES! - it does make a difference

Speakers are a popular components to rewire/rebuild and there are several threads in the forums

Regards - Steve

....obviously Mr 197GTO ( get tools out ) 455ho you have never listened to a really good system or due to alleged internal fortitude,  will not allow yourself  to actually listen and hear a difference that cabling can make on a system.  '' You can bring a horse to water  .......'' you get the idea.   

@1971gto455ho , why are you still here posting in this thread?

You're really not adding anything useful.

Door's over there......kindly use it. 

Thanks.

It’s free speech public opinions included. You’re right I’m not adding anything useful simply adding that same dribble you are. So let’s take the same door once out you turn left I turn right.

Cheers

"I just wondered if you had to recommend a set up to someone (who wanted a nice stereo), would you consider cabling to be essential in your build price and your recommendations? If so, would you consider the cost of the cables to be on par with the cost of a component?"

I think cables can be very, very important.

But they are not essential, in that, you could use the stock cable and still play music. You couldn't play a record without a table/arm/cart. So, the table is essential; the cable is not.

Of course, it also depends on this "someone". Are they a new to the hobby? Do they have the funds? How patient are they? 

I'd tell them to get the best gear they can to start, use the stock cables and then slowly upgrade the cables when they're able to. So, they should absolutely assume new cables are in their future, and therefore, start saving. Because they can truly, significantly enhance the experience when they upgrade--and it's a fun way to learn the hobby.