Do you consider cables to be a "component" of your system?

I’ve tried cables that made more difference in sound than swapping DACs (the two DACs being relatively similar in technology and price, but showing their own subjective differences nonetheless).

I own so many different cables I could easily alter the tonal and spatial characteristics of the system by changing the cable loom, and not by a small degree. So yes, in my experience cables are definitely components that have to be chosen with as much care as the rest.

@d_joudrey I find it amazing is that you read any review, premier, report from an audio show. every speaker, amplifiers, streamer, DAC manufacturer is using upgraded cables, interconnect, power, speaker, tonearm, and enhanced internet switches and connections, or fiber. Many of these manufacturers have no connection to these other manufacturers. So why would the do this?

Simple to maximize the performance and experience of the reviewer, customer. Because they make a difference. If it truly did not then they would use the cheapest crap on the planet.

Wow, all of the deniers are here after they were asked NOT to spout off with their negative comments. Please read the original post, it clearly states “Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that cables don't make a difference. I disagree and there's nothing you can say or do that will change my mind, so save it for another thread, please.”  What part of that don’t you understand?

Yes, cables are definitely a vey important element of MY system. They can make or break a system in my opinion, and so can anti-vibration platforms, power conditioners, and so on. You really don't need to have golden ears to hear what they do - in my system. I've enjoyed a tremendous (yes, TREMENDOUS) upgrade of resolution, openness, pace of said system after replacing the whole cable loom. It certainly brings as much an improvement as changing the amplifier(s) for more expensive ones, or the DAC. And it costs less. It seems to me a lot of audiophiles just go through an awful lot of component swaps without ever trying to get the best out of them, wasting time and money, when very often all that was needed is a little attention to surrounding devices and cables.

Now of course there are systems where the improvements might be more subdued, and where you mIGHT need more concentration to hear the differences, which may seem too subtle at first. 

Try it with a high sensitivity, fully horn loaded system like mine, and you'll be shocked. My explanation for that, is when you use 100dB+ sensitive speakers, at normal domestic listening SPLs, the signal travelling through your devices stays really really low, uncomfortably close to the plane where distortions and noise induced by external perturbations (spurious vibrations, EMI, RF, mains noise...) reside. That doesn't make it a "better" system, it's just a characteristic of very high efficiency, and is more often than not a plague rather than a blessing. Yes, in my system, you clearly hear everything, from the type of cable used to the platform where the DAC and the transport reside. It's absolutely not "subtle", rather dramatic in fact. 

That being said, even in a conventional system cables are important and yes, I believe ears can be trained for critical listening, there is absolutely no doubt about that.  

Absolutely YES YES YES

@thyname

Yes I’ve vintage but very well set up with exceptional rebuilding and upgrading as necessary. Equipment age aside it’s my opinion you could do a little research and relax. What you have is nice and certainly newer, but if sound is the goal you’re in the rearview mirror. And let’s not get personal Your opinion is just that and nothing more, that we have in common. Bashing BS is certainly getting boring, listening to a select few is right up there. Without animosity…Cheers

Yes but not to the extreme  of others here. I look for the cables to impeach the components connect to them. Stay out of the way…no colorations.

"I just wondered if you had to recommend a set up to someone (who wanted a nice stereo), would you consider cabling to be essential in your build price and your recommendations? If so, would you consider the cost of the cables to be on par with the cost of a component?"

I think cables can be very, very important.

Many would agree with that.

However I would suggest putting the investment into the speakers and electronics and using decent budget cables.
That will likely be more impactful than using handfuls of $500-1000 ICs on lesser grade speakers and electronics.

I suppose it we are talking high 5 or 6 figure budgets then the cables are in the budgetary noise.

I'd tell them to get the best gear they can to start, use the stock cables and then slowly upgrade the cables when they're able to. So, they should absolutely assume new cables are in their future, and therefore, start saving. Because they can truly, significantly enhance the experience when they upgrade--and it's a fun way to learn the hobby.

100%

@1971gto455ho :

You’re right I’m not adding anything useful

At least you admit it. Now…. Please stop polluting every single cable thread. You are becoming even worse than @jasonbourne52 on this topic, and that’s a huge “treat” to achieve

I’ve vintage, and have been selectively buying. Now own Pristine second owner last model run Infinity IRS Beta speakers. Yamaha power PC5002m mid’s / high panels, PC4002M woofer towers. 4 x infinitesimal 0.2’s, Yamaha Pc2002m power. 

No wonder you don’t hear any difference with cables. Equipment from over 40 (four zero, forty) years ago. Vintage is often a fancy self-pleasant name for old. Probably they come with their captive cords. Enjoy your equipment, but I have a feeling you enjoy “contributing “ to cable forums most

Technically, accessories. Albeit very important nonetheless 

You know, I just got $450 Audioengine HD4 powered speakers to mostly play VHS tapes in a smaller room. My main system is in another room. So I experimented with all interconnects that I have in the house connecting Panasonic pro SVHS deck and those speakers. That's what I tried: Nakamichi cables that used to come with their cassette decks in the box, DiMarzio M-path $150, Art Audio $100 their least expensive cable, Accuphase $700 cables, Wywires Diamon $2600 cables.

Speakers are now almost completely burnt-in and all the cables are.

The worst were Art Audio and DiMarzio, though it was listenable. I liked Nakamichi more overall, their balance, even though they had the least resolution.

Accuphase were absolutely great, more than enough but the Diamonds sounded slightly but very audibly better in every respect. Unfortunately I need them in my main rig so I will be using the Accuphase. Big difference between them and the lesser cables. $700 cables with $450 speakers/ amp. Crazy, right?

"I just wondered if you had to recommend a set up to someone (who wanted a nice stereo), would you consider cabling to be essential in your build price and your recommendations? If so, would you consider the cost of the cables to be on par with the cost of a component?"

I think cables can be very, very important.

But they are not essential, in that, you could use the stock cable and still play music. You couldn't play a record without a table/arm/cart. So, the table is essential; the cable is not.

Of course, it also depends on this "someone". Are they a new to the hobby? Do they have the funds? How patient are they? 

I'd tell them to get the best gear they can to start, use the stock cables and then slowly upgrade the cables when they're able to. So, they should absolutely assume new cables are in their future, and therefore, start saving. Because they can truly, significantly enhance the experience when they upgrade--and it's a fun way to learn the hobby. 

It’s free speech public opinions included. You’re right I’m not adding anything useful simply adding that same dribble you are. So let’s take the same door once out you turn left I turn right.

Cheers

@1971gto455ho , why are you still here posting in this thread?

You're really not adding anything useful.

Door's over there......kindly use it. 

Thanks.

....obviously Mr 197GTO ( get tools out ) 455ho you have never listened to a really good system or due to alleged internal fortitude,  will not allow yourself  to actually listen and hear a difference that cabling can make on a system.  '' You can bring a horse to water  .......'' you get the idea.   

@vinylmisterd - re:

I always wondered why there is never a discussion of the quality of cabling/wires used “inside” the components we buy when discussing external cables/wire. Just thinkin’

There are those that go to great lengths in replacing wires inside their components, but it is more of a niche segment or for the more specialised DIY community.

• Many Tube gear owners will rewire their comonents, which is made easier if point to point wiring is employed
• Ans YES! - it does make a difference

Speakers are a popular components to rewire/rebuild and there are several threads in the forums

Regards - Steve

Twiddle dee twiddle dumb beat the audio humdrum

Me 

@vinylmisterd

Your supposed to learn to hear the difference... Power finds its way into your house Romex whatever, ya stick a 6’ piece of cable it miraculously goes to work correcting, beautifying sound. Don't worry about what's inside your component obviously it also has the ability to to adjust and control any AC to DC, controls, wiring, etc. down stream. There’s hundreds out there no scam start testing....LOL

@vinylmisterd - It's very important as well, but much harder to replace. 

@vinylmisterd +1

I do.

@larry5729, my power cord go winh Luxman M800u when manufactor sale to me is Luxman PJA 15000 power cord. It cost 200000 JPY (Around Usd180). When i replace it  by a Analysis Plus Power Oval 2 (cost around  Usd 400) I don't hear a difference.

I don't think all the stock power cord are bad.

All the best!

Absolutely yes! This weekend a friend dug out an old system from his garage which sounded very ordinary with some budget speaker cable and interconnects. In passing he told me he was about buy a new amp to drive the speakers. I pottered over there with some old Cardas and no name speaker cables and saved him 2k! Everyone was a winner. As an aside I feel quite sorry for people who can't hear the difference in cabling or are so tired of life that they no longer feel the thrill of the chase. It is amusing that these types resort to irrelevant measurement arguments. I ask you has science ever provided a decent argument for consiousness?

I always wondered why there is never a discussion of the quality of cabling/wires  used “inside” the components we buy when discussing external cables/wire. Just thinkin’

@mitch2 

Yes, SRA is a top of the line company. 

@ghdprentice - Yeah, SRA is a good company.  Mine are the Ohio-Class XL model.  I sold some Lamm amps to a gentleman who owned them and didn’t need them anymore so we made a trade plus cash deal.  They were the perfect size for my SMc amps so I sent them to SRA with detailed info about the SMc amps (weight, dimensional footer locations, and location of the heavy transformer) and they reconfigured the platforms (whatever that entails) so that they are a custom fit for my amps.  They also removed their tall’ish feet and replaced them with their low profile style feet so they fit on my stand.  They said it doesn’t matter what footers are under the amps if they are supported on the SRA platforms.

@mitch2 Nice system. That is a big commitment to SRA  isolation platforms. I have one under my turntable. Made a very definite and important improvement.

Oops that’s what you get when you Siri auto text and don’t check…lazy. Did use it back in a day, looks bad hard to work with glad I grew up finances to boot. 

I think Romax is more commonly found in sex shops , there is however a type of sheathed electrical wire rated for residential applications called Romex and yes one could use it as speaker wire.

I get it just like water witching except using a piece of wire, will 12 gauge Romax work ? Lol

Cheers 

Cables can be a tool to pinpoint weaknesses in your system. They can be more than a component - they can be a tool to perfect your setup.

Thanks for the comments about my system.  It has been a journey, and certainly some missteps on the way to achieving what I am happy with.  Along the way I found that, for me and the music I like, it is mostly (but not entirely) about tone and dynamic impact so my current rig does those really well.  

I have done a fair amount of DIY, and particularly wrt making cables, and so I was an early adopter of the Cable Cooker just to be sure that I was hearing the cables I made at their best without waiting a month for them to burn in. Back then, cable burn in seemed to be a big deal (and still is to some extent) so having a cooker was a necessity for any “serious” cable builder.  I admit that I still use it - maybe the longest continuous run of any single part of my system - shout out to Alan Kafton!

“Congratulations,your thought process about the importance of cables is exactly the outcome desired by the marketing department’s of audio cable manufacturers “just checked out your system ( beautiful btw ) what do they get for a cable cooker?maybe I’ll chug a little a that Kable Kool aid and get drunk enough to pop for one a those.

@bikeboy52

Good call out. I have always maintained that different cables sound differently, and I did like the sound of that USB cable, at that time. I still own it but have been using the TWL split USB lately. As an example of different sounding cables, I have tried a lot of speaker cables and I am partial to the sound of multiple, individually insulated, small gauge, solid core, OCC copper wires, in foamed PE, i.e., Harmonic Technplogy speaker cables. While I hear differences in cables, IMO they have nowhere near the impact on the sound of a system as the components and speakers, and after trying a bunch of manufactured cables and making quite a few of my own, I believe a lot of the marketing hype related to cables sets unrealistic expectations with the intent of leading buyers onto a continual upgrade merry-go-round. However, I am also fine with others who want to spend their money on expensive cables - to each their own.

Wait what ? So Mitch 2 in the time  since you started the “ usb cable play offs” thread back in 2016 and said “ in general I found the Totaldac usb cable to have excellent clarity, body, tone and energy while the  ifi Gemini cable leans more towards the dark side with a mix of richness, fullness and darkness while still displaying a sufficient level if detail” your views on cables have changed ? Excellent clarity, body, tone and energy?

Marketed for……  Bingo !     Slap of the thread

Cheers

@bikeboy52 

”its just a no brainer“

Congratulations, your thought process about the importance of cables is exactly the outcome desired by the marketing departments of audio cable manufacturers. 

@1971gto455ho 

There is a place to put photos of your system and identify your system components under your UserID.

There must be something wrong with me,but to my way of thinking its just a no brainer,how can the quality of and fashion in which the cables that are  interconnecting the different components or send the signal out to your speakers not be important? So then by that rationale it must also not be important to use the best materials and manufacturing methods in the building of the individual components themselves right? 

I acknowledge that different cables sound different. And that there are better cable designs for different jobs, like turntable interconnects. But I don’t sweat them like I do my speakers, first and foremost, or my other components. So yes, they are part of the system, but not the part where I invest a lot of time or money. I do think it’s possible that once you have a great team of electronic and speakers, they can add the last polish on the sound. You don’t use them to get there in the first place.

Yes, unfortunately.  I didn’t want to spend significant $ on cables but when one reaches a level of transparency it’s makes an obvious difference.
 

.......'' considerably more '' as what has been indicated in a thread is a relative  term. To upgrade from the original stock power that was provided when you bought your equipment may be acceptable for some and that is their prerogative. I have indicated that by upgrading your cables from the original stock cable and doing that say on a cumulative basis without spending a "' King's Ransom " will possibly improve your overall enjoyment of your system ; which is a subjective assessment. How do I know this ....I just spent the last month listening to the Hemingway Creation power cord, the Siltech Ruby Mountain II power cord and also the Shunyata Omega QR(s) power cord and also last but not least the Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cord. They were all placed on an Esoteric Grandioso K1x Cd player and all produced a different sound. All 4 were at different price points. I listened to them for extended periods of time before I made a decision. The decision I made is subjective as as well as personal and was also witnessed by others ( some non-audiophiles ) who could hear the difference. Was it scientifically evaluated in an anechoic chamber no ......but in my own living room a definite  difference was heard between them. Which cable did I end up with ?  ......the least expensive one, but the one that was most musical to my ears ; The Cardas Clear Beyond XL. Cables do make a difference but if you do decide to upgrade your cables ; be your own judge and make the decision which is best for you and your finances. They they should be considered as part of your whole system......             

@garebear 

Do moderne Radial tires exceed the ability of antiquated bias tires.. absolutely ! Pure Mechanical science is undeniable, as well no room for a Debate of any kind with Qualified test drivers. There is also no room for placebo of any kind it’s literally night and day with regards to the tires. This dose not equate in any way to the Forever debate with power cables in audio. To much some Hear it some don’t, mechanical testing that may or may not be audible…and the placebo effect. Tires and audio cables Analogy…. ridiculous ! And The idea that a person retrofits cables upon purchase hears a difference to be further enhanced with the spending of considerably more.. now that’s debateable placebo inc. How many years has this discussion been going on ? No definitive results yet ? One thing we can all agree on it’s been a money maker LOL

......your room acoustics is one of the biggest variables in your own personal sound reproduction and will have a significant effect on the overall sound of your system. The OP has asked if your cables should be considered as part of your system and the answer is .....yes. I do believe that and in my opinion, that Audiogon members who have not according to them witnessed or have heard the  '' placebo effect '' of what cables can do for a system have not really listened to any really resolving or well assembled systems and therefore make those statements. To the Audiogon member who said that he equated the tires of his car to their the cables in his system was spot on as better tires do make a difference in car's performance was dead spot on with that analogy. The other members who drive classic cars or expensive Audi's I am can agree that they have invested some money in better tires for those cars to get the best out of their systems which I do think can be '' scientifically '' measured but obviously can feel the difference in performance so why not cables if that is your argument  ? You do not to spend $20,000 for a power cord but one that is in your budget will on a cumulative basis as your upgrade your  cables your overall system and its enjoyment can only get better.       

Try removing all the cables from your system and see how well it performs.....

If, therefore, cables are an essential part of a system, surely it makes just as much sense to optimize them as it does to optimize the boxes that they connect.

I said separating them by type (power, interconnects, phono, cat5, speaker). The induction issue was caused by IC's on top of power cables, exactly what I am avoiding.

Quality cables are table stakes.

The more important aspect of cabling for me is organizing them by type and running them together. For my system, this has increased fidelity and satisfied my OCD at the same time.