Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music

Thank you, Erik. I have subs now, but I'm not against selling them if this is equally good. 

Hey @Hilde45

I’m definitely not encouraging you not to use them. :) I hope the article instead gives you ideas about how to get the most out of what you got.

In a modest living room, well treated, with modest volumes I got pretty happy. That’s not to say that integrating a sub wouldn’t improve the dynamic range and clarity, but rather that as the 2 way system gets better it gets harder and harder for me to justify the extra lift to put a sub in. I may still for the sake of the blog. :)

Unfortunately for a lot of audiophiles they go from 2-ways with OK bass to 2 ways with crappy sounding subs. :-)  I'm hoping these articles help readers get to 2 ways with great bass OR 2 ways with a great sounding subwoofer by measuring the output and making informed decisions.

I hear you, Erik. What I meant to say was that I'm learning that the initial way of going as an audiophile is toward "more" but you're explaining how "less" can be "more," and I want to be open to that.

Yes indeed @Hilde45.  If all you do is use an EQ to clip the peaks in the bass you'll be a happy listener. :) 

The frequency sweeps on your loudspeaker look good but that is not the whole story. The averaged results looking the best. They may sound good but I'm guessing not even in the same league as bigger full range speakers that could blend in a sub a little better. Not having your speakers to listen to puts me at a disadvantage but let's just say you didn't like the sub in your particular application but I would not want to paint all systems with that broad brush. 

The averaged results looking the best

@russ69

They always do, but we take them to avoid optimizing for a 1mm wide cube where our nose might be if it were in a vise. I’m not being deceptive, I’m being thorough. This is considered good practice.

They may sound good but I’m guessing not even in the same league as bigger full range speakers

Au contraire, mon ami!

Audiophiles who do this do one of two things.  They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains.  In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.

To blend a speaker, of any size, with a subwoofer requires the same careful planning and forethought.

I adjusted my modest Paradigm subwoofer by ear. Sounds great. Adds what I missed with my Nola Boxers. Nothing more.

Au contraire, mon ami!

Maybe I shouldn't make blanket statements without knowing more. 

Audiophiles who do this do one of two things. They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains. In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.

Your comment should be clarified to say that this applies to bandwidth limited monitors. I have speakers with folded horn bass drivers. This bass is some of the best that can be had. It would be foolish to high pass LaScalas. So I do just what you advocate against, bring the subs in very low. And it works fabulously.

Not a one size fits all solution, neither is yours.

BTW, I think you meant “either” , not “neither”.

I’ve been fighting with room acoustics and a REL T9x for over a month. I was at the point of selling it until I went completely against the set up recommendations and moved it out of the corner, raised it onto a 1” granite slab and decoupled it with Herbies grungebuster pads under the feet. Now everything clicked into place, bass grip and definition, soundstage are spectacular. best of all, the relentless room resonance is gone. I don’t like the aesthetics of having treatments all over my apartment. If I ever get a dedicated listening room I’d be all for a different approach but for what I have to work with now, a sub is a phenomenal acquisition. I’m sure others are in the same situation.

I’ll just say that if you enjoy listening to monitors without a couple good subs, you either have crap subs or don’t know how to set them up.  My experience is that when you eliminate subs from a well setup system the soundstage collapses along with dynamics and it makes the sound feel like it’s severely compromised and almost broken and don’t wanna listen without the subs.  I’ve found this with full-range speakers as well, so it’s even more pronounced with bass-limited monitors.  But that’s just my experience.  There’s a reason Wilson and others use subs even with their $100,000+ speakers, so for you to say you don’t need them with some monitors — nah. 

Its all room and speaker dependent and room treatments and speaker placement.  I was going crazy with measurements.  I was able to get the Fritz Carrera Be to play -3db at 20hz and damn near flat from 23hz to 100hz in my last house.  
 

Its so room dependent and speaker placement dependent and if you aren’t taking measurements you’re pretty much shooting in the dark.

You definitely were on the right track by avoiding boost and cutting the peaks.  

Just curious how close your speakers are placed near the walls?  

I am not a total sub fiend but even though my mains go to 45Hz as measured, the two REL T9i I have provide the dynamics, impact, sustain, texture and hall ambience that make a big difference for me and my system. The  RELs are more subtle and musically accurate than other subs I have tried as well as being easy to integrate and they avoid coloring the midrange- all reasons why I like them so much.  

I own stand mounts as well as floor standers ,and by asd8ng a subwoofer - A Quality one ,two even better more even bass , the bass fundamentals just donot effect the low frequencies ,but also up into the lower midrange .

when setup properly the music as a whole is much more substantial as music 

as a whole .i  have been into audio for a long time and owned a Audio store fir 10 

years  and have had the opportunities to compare most every type of Loudspeaker type ,and setup in rooms . Whst ever you do is totally up to you ,but there is ample proof out there 1-2 subwoofers of respectable quality is a win win ..

svs 3000s has a great app to find tune your system , JL  Audio,  Rel , Kef , and several others are verygood.

Well obviously this is your opinion and your room with your speakers.  It may work for your system but that in no way guarantees the dame result for someone else.  Lately I have been reading too many opinions, etc., that are somewhat useless for other people's systems.

Happy Listening.

Adding subs is always an improvement if crossed over right. But each person has to decide if the cost, space and complexity is worth it to them. 

You're right. Everybody's situation is different, and the type of sub makes a difference, too. In my small 2.1 setup I use a 300w RMS 8" sealed sub that has substantially improved the sound of every bookshelf speaker I have tried.  It doesn't hurt that it has a rare high pass filter on the high level outputs.

I just added an SVS Micro 3000 to my Harbeth M30.1 based system.  Its certainly filling in space I knew I was missing.  My listening area is the right side of a 27 x 13 room and is pretty well damped.  

I can see how setting up a sub could be a PIA.  The SVS app on my android phone allows for tweaking in almost real time.  For my purposes I set the sub to "kick in" at 51hz and the volume setting at -28.  Most of the other settings I've left alone for now.  

I'd love to find an android app that can help with room measurements from my sitting position.  Any of you guys (or gal) know of an app that might be suitable?  

I guess you’re not listening to Alan Walker at concert level..;)

Musically the important thing when adding a sub to a system is that a high pass is used on the main speakers. Then as stated distortion foes down and the main speakers open up significantly. Without the high pass this won't happen and the only advantage of a sub when integrated with the room is more bass and improved sound due to the low bass supporting the entire frequency envelope. This matters but isn't as important as taking the large load off the bottom of the main speakers.

"I guess you’re not listening to Alan Walker at concert level..;)"

Nah, I'm more of a Skrillex kinda guy.  

@erik_squires, I personally appreciate the benefit of integrating a sub into a restricted low-freq. system, IF the sub can be seamlessly integrated. As most of you knew, the sub is not only filling the low end but could also augmenting soundstange, dynamic range, etc. When listening at low volume, the sub also fill in the low end atmosphere just like the "loudness" button.

Nevertheless, integration of sub is not an easy task. I completely agree with you that high-pass filter (HPF) is almost a must after experimenting one of the few subs that includes such a function, i.e., SVS SB 1000/2000. The HPF in SVS SB is fixed at 80Hz just as mentioned in your article. I am not sure why SVS abandons that in the pro model and higher grade sub. With HPF, the headroom in both main speakers and subs becomes bigger and enables them to handle the notes with more authority. The integration is much better than other methods of connection, such as high level, line level, LFE, or from speaker level to line level through a line-out converter/attenuator. I just wish the amp in SB 1000/2000 could allow users to adjust the Q setting or the HPF frequencies at least has more preset frequencies bet. 60 Hz to 100 Hz like in Emotiva.

Like you have mentioned, the DSP method is another way to integrate a sub. However, the more affordable digital signal processor like MiniDSP does not have digitial OUT that allows users to connect it with the DAC. I am not confident the quality internal DAC in MiniDSP. If placing the DAC before MiniDSP, the MiniDSP will need to perform A-D-A conversion internally and potentially mess up the quality of digitial/analogue signals. To be completely digital, one need to upgrade the DSP to SHD Studio which is sort of cost prohibitive around $1k. I am not sure if you have the exposure to DSP and could share your experience/advise.

With a modicum of subwoofer positioning & some twisting of the dials on the back of the Paradigm sub, I used one of my fistful of test CDs (was it one of the Stereophile ones?) to achieve flat, eminently musical bass response in my listening room with my Nola Boxers down to 40 hz. From there, response steadily goes down until disappearing at just under 30 hz. All by ear, and good enough for me.

Audiophiles who do this do one of two things. They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains. In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.

I'm with Ozzy. Gotta have octave zero which even the full-range towers can't play anywhere near flat.

....a SHD Studio to some may be a pittance, compared to some cable commitments, but that's me being a tad snide.  But a digital crossover can allow sidestepping the major issues of integration....

Personally, I've always wanted a 'test record/CD' that I could 'sample & hold' at any point in play  Helps to focus on the details.. 

"Bots' ya got?"

I helped my,neighbor, he has and did purchase on my recommendation a pair of large bookshelves (Dynaudio) c-1? Maybe, and a small Polk sub for the lows, his small modest bookshelves w the,small Polk sub, does sound very good, allows him to hit the volume a bit,more with the subs soaking yp the,low freq. 

Having just added a second sub this week in part because of the rel sale, I would add to this discussion that with the good also comes a little bad. The second sub rel s/510 added richness to the sound and much deeper sound stage. The only new problem that emerged with this improved SQ is volume. While working I was listening to the streaming service I use on my $150 2.1 computer speakers and noticed that all levels were homogenized—meaning there was about the same levels of bass and treble and so forth. Playing the same playlist on my system I found myself wanting to adjust the sub level pretty often. On one song there’d be too much bass so I’d turn the sub volume down. On another song there was too little, so I’d turn up the volume, until finally I had to put the volume at some compromised position. The sub is magical and musical but I sure wish it had a remote.

There was a topic recently asking if audiophiles are on a different planet. I don't know about that, but this is one of those times it sure seems like they are. Erik has been around long enough to know about DBA, to have read all the extensive research on the subject, and to have seen that everyone who tries it gets the same outstanding results. He knows full well the key to good bass is multiple bass sources, not a single sub. This has been explained, demonstrated, and proven, time and again. Yet here we are pretending none of this ever happened.

Lalalalalala I don't hear you lalalalalala that is the whole message. Different planet. Here on Earth everyone but everyone will experience better bass with a DBA. The only question being: Is that what you want? Or would you rather go on pretending?

if one chooses not to add a sub to their system because to them it sounds good, then so be it.....but that doesnt mean that this is going to work for another member and their system.

if you are happy with the way things sound in your system, then fine, but it sounds like you are totally against adding one and trying to persuade others not to use one as well.

I've re-read the OP and the two articles directly relevant; the one mentioned in the OP and the one before it, "How not to buy a subwoofer."

Erik makes it pretty clear this is mainly about his process and how he came to his conclusions. A bunch of posts here are manning the ramparts to go against the claim that "no one should ever have a sub, their personal freedom be damned." I know folks need a cause to fight for, but...

Re: the DBA, Erik discussed it and didn't dismiss it, here: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html

While I was a fan of this [DBA] idea due to the innovation and possibilities it offered I never really warmed to it due to the physical complexity.  For me, I want my system simpler, smaller, and tripling the number of speakers in my home has no appeal at all.

So, as I take this in, I see Erik making the point that if one wants to avoid the complexity of the DBA, one needs to be careful about whether a sub is genuinely needed, and how to assess that complicated question. He's not taking the work off of anyone's shoulder's; rather, he's making the unpopular point that making a correct judgement about this requires work and he's aiming to assist any audiophile not content to just buy more stuff.

I went with what my friend brought over to my house 20 yrs ago. I put 2-10" subs in between my mains. The Marchand crossover boards say 1985 on them. I sent into Phil(very nice person) a couple years ago and it was fine but he put some nicer opamps in since I sent it in. Charged me $150. I spent a whopping $400 for the setup originally, might have been a little extra for the crossover. I am lucky, people do things without labor just parts. Otherwise to buy all this new would now be a couple thousand. I know, some say it is just midfi crap. They still sit in the same place. I was really proud of myself. I could shake the entire house. Then...I got it right. Now the bass is not boomy and loud upstairs, yet is deep and rich at my listening position. Walking around the room and it doesn’t sound peak or null anywhere I can hear. Somehow, I can keep most of the bass in the room now. My wife sure isn’t complaining. Bear in mind these are only "good" to 30 Hz. There is some 20Hz output but that is not what the port is tuned to. I’m fine with that because as i said buying bigger and newer will cost quite a bit.

I have 15" woofers in my mains. I have listened to them without subs. They go down to about 35 Hz. The sound is good, but the subs just fill in a little more.

I could use a couple corner bass traps but I am not far off without them.  My friend passed away, no local audio groups, no dealers, so it has just been blind luck and lots of reading.

I have debated about restoring this Yamaha P2700. It just cruises with the subs. It is 30 yrs old now but haven’t located someone who could do this for a reasonable price. So far, I have been able to put my money into everything else.

Erik, interesting post.  Always appreciate your perspective.  I find, for me and my system, that multiple subs create a significantly improved soundstage versus no subs, especially, at lower volumes.  

Its either the red or blue pill.

the choice is up to the individual .

i just think many times that members like to stir the bees nest to see what they can shake up.....and this would be one of these times.

if one wants to believe what he says as the way to go, then so be it.....but there are many here that feel adding subs makes a big difference.

If there was a chair a slight breeze and good sound Erik would be happy. I would be happy IF I had the same sound and a room FULL of goodies.

I think everyone wants good sound without looking like a NASA simulation, BUT there are those that do like that look..  I'm in between the two actually. A pole dead center of the speakers is just fine. "She can leave her hat ON" The pole is staying too.

Regards

I’ve always said a sub belongs in a home theater set up. I have a very nice Tannoy sub that serves this purpose. My 2 channel hifi is composed of large Tannoys that, to me, do all the bass I would ever need. I am not habitually listening to a church pipe organ. However, I must say that an organ sounds pretty darn good through my Tannoys as is. My room is adorned with normal room treatments for creature comfort. There are no specific hifi based treatments, which to me, look terrible. I spend lots of time in my living/family room, so it must be pleasing to the eye. I have said often, soft furnishings mixed with hard, ie coffee table/end table, sectional couch, a plush chair or two, pillows, throws, even a wall tapestry. All these things, tastefully chosen and carefully placed, will accomplish the task of treating a room. Add or omit what is needed with commonly available house furnishings. I am pleased with the sound I achieved overall. Could it be a bit better? Maybe....I do not live in a mansion, so I will never have a dedicated room. So what I have is a nice compromise to keep all happy.

Nothing against those that choose to use a sub, to each their own. To me, it is over kill and not necessary. Most music contains nothing below say 40 hz...most speakers with say a 40 hz rating actually go significantly lower when interacting with the room. Lastly, you will never get the timbre to match the 2 channel speakers. To me, you are ruining the sound of a well designed 2 channel speaker. 

@soix - Can’t agree more that when you remove the sub, then you best realize what it actually contributes to your system.

In the same time Ihad the same annoying experience like @pennpencil having to constantly turn up and down the volume of the subs depending of the album or even the track. This was one of the reasons I got finally rid of the YG Anat III Professional Signature. 
i really wonder how can a sub be not too much or too litle once and again.

Adding a small sub to augment small monitors was one of my better decisions. 

2 major improvements that have left me scratching my head

* I sold 2 SVS powered subs: purchased new 10+ years ago, never designed to compliment a hi-end system, but I thought I needed them as my room is ~ 21 x 35 x 12 (open beam ceiling) with lots of glass front and rear, plus a tile floor, when I had Magnapan 3.5Rs

Also, I had my Emerald Physics 3.4s (2 way) 12" concentric drivers with 1" polyester tweeters sitting on Harbor Freight dollys so I could maneuver them easily, but once I got rid of the subs and moved the 3.4s some 2ft back, wrangling them off the dollys, and onto one toe (OUCH), then placed 4 each loaded Nobsound springs under them, the music became amazingly life-like. My LSA Voyager 350 has a lot more lower mids and bass then I was aware of. In most rooms I doubt anyone would need more speaker than these. They can be found used for under $1000!

Due to my room and cabinet I am restricted to using bookshelf speakers with 8 inch drivers. 

Adding a sub makes a more full sound. You also muddy the midrange if you are asking your speakers to play a 50hz tone along with a 1000hz tone 

Nothing against those that choose to use a sub, to each their own. To me, it is over kill and not necessary. Most music contains nothing below say 40 hz...most speakers with say a 40 hz rating actually go significantly lower when interacting with the room. Lastly, you will never get the timbre to match the 2 channel speakers. To me, you are ruining the sound of a well designed 2 channel speaker.

Uh, @audioguy85, a statement like this indicates someone who’s never experienced a sub properly set up and hence is focusing on the wrong things.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  Wilson Audio uses subs with their Alexandrias, which go gobs lower than your speakers could ever hope to.  What do you think you know that they don’t?  Ugh. 

@soix I think @audioguy85 is referring to adding separate sub-woofers to speakers, but not to those that are already part of the speaker system. Not only Wilson, but Vandersteens Quatro have built-in sub-woofers. Those are fine. He is questioning the wisdom of adding sub-woofers by end-users which are not part of the speaker manufacturers recommendation. This is just a trial-and-error procedure hoping to get something in addition to what main speakers deliver.

I have KEF R3 bookshelf speakers. They are substantial for bookshelf speakers. After owning them a few months I decided to add a sub. I added a KEF R400B, It definitely added another dimension to the sound. Although better, I still felt like I was missing something, so I added a second R400B. It has taken a while to get it right, but the 2 subs really complimented the R3s and allow them to do what they do best and the subs take care of the rest. I don't know about all applications, but adding subs worked for me.

Personally, I feel DSP and it's ilk "spoils the cow's milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended. In fact, the goal for my source gear is to preserve that source as purely as possible to feed my phase and time coherent Dunlavy SM-1 monitors, which were designed to be used with a sub. An active analog crossover is key to setting up that sub properly as is room placement etc. I do like the idea of using a device like the omnimic, but only to tune the sub with analog circuits. 

Kinda disappointing to start a thread then walk away for two days. 

Personally, I feel DSP and it's ilk "spoils the cow's milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended

You never reproduce the intention unless your room and speakers match the mixing room. DSP no more spoils anything anymore than your Dunlavy speakers or listening room chair.

@pennpencil  Those symptoms are classic indicators that you have a room mode problem.  Narrow, tall peaks which certain music is hitting and preventing you from setting your subs to a more neutral position.

This is something fixable with EQ and measurement, really super easy.

Like you have mentioned, the DSP method is another way to integrate a sub. However, the more affordable digital signal processor like MiniDSP does not have digitial OUT that allows users to connect it with the DAC

miniDSP has a number of DSP's with pure digital I/O, among them:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88d

Sadly the cheaper nano is now gone.

He knows full well the key to good bass is multiple bass sources, not a single sub

@millercarbon I would appreciate you not speaking for me, thank you.

Yes, from the literature DBA sounds like a fine idea. It is the number of devices and the religious zealotry which you have used to promote it, and this line is a perfect example. There are a number of solutions and DBA may be fine, but so is a good sub in a good room with proper integration can sound glorious.

DBA is by no means an exclusive solution but attempting to sell it as the one and only solution is akin to cultish methinks.

Uh, @audioguy85, a statement like this indicates someone who’s never experienced a sub properly set up and hence is focusing on the wrong things.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  Wilson Audio uses subs with their Alexandrias, which go gobs lower than your speakers could ever hope to.  What do you think you know that they don’t?  Ugh. 

Yay! A new contender for most annoying poster!