Just added a new image, from another Audiogoner, @dmilev73 to the original posting. What’s interesting is his own speakers are rated to 40 Hz yet easily get to 20 Hz in room. Very similar experience to my own.
It validates my thesis. We shouldn’t rely on these speaker specs to tell us much about what happens when the speakers actually get into a room. The armchair audiophiles who have never measured anything have to reevaluate what they think they know.
I’m sure the DBA crowd will get all frothy over this, but nothing I can do about that.
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PPS - I'm waiting on a rack from Butcher Block Acoustics and after that I am planning on adding a subwoofer, stand by for that post! :)
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PS - I heard Debussy's La Mer, LA Philharmonic last night. Simply an outstanding presentation with deep (for non-Organ) bass notes throughout. Outstanding.
I also heard tracks from the Hsu/Boston Audio Society that had deep organ notes. I could see the woofers moving, but to be honest, they were pushing rope!
So, for sure, there are limits to the performance of a 6.5" mid-woofer, but as a lifestyle choice this is an outstanding setup for a small simple system.
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@tweak1 and @phusis both bring up very good points. Yes, with infinite time, money and the forbearance of our loved one's integrating subs is possible. For some it's mythical, and for some a no brainer to add.
I actually am sad more listeners who go through the trouble to buy subs don't love them, but it's a risky business and if you are not well versed in the use of equalizers and speaker matching you may be overcome by the expense, complexity or technology before your Valhalla is prepared.
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Hi @rauliruegas
Couple of things. I meant that I would expect a 6.5" woofer to have a -3 dB point around 40 Hz. That doesn't mean that there is no output below that. In fact, upon reflection I realized that when I made these speakers I cheated in a couple of ways. I already had bass traps, and I always intended these speakers to be used near the rear wall, so I designed the crossover accordingly. This flies in the face of "best practices" for speakers which is to make speakers that are measured as if in an echo-free world. My measurements and test location were HUGE cheats and I'm sure the good Dr. Joe D'Appolito would be very unhappy with me.
What I mean by subwoofers being tone controls is that there is by merely introducing a subwoofer we are altering the tonal balance of our system, and that the end result must be set by personal preferences. There is no such thing as an objectively neutral subwoofer installation.
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Sorry gang, I dropped this thread due to being busy at work, and busy re-working the HT part of the living room. I'll try to catch up on the questions by this weekend.
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P.S. - I just added distortion measurements to the original blog. Honestly, the numbers seem low, about 2% at 20 Hz???
I’m in the middle of a HT install (with a sub!) so I may not be able to get back to it, but I wanted you all to know I did in fact do more on this but that it probably deserves more exploration before I stand by the distortion numbers.
Best,
Erik
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Hi @lemonhaze
So after watching dozens of posts by the DBA fanboys (it’s not derogatory) I ask for the specific discussion of DBA to be taken elsewhere, as many many other thread starters have done in the past, and those with courtesy and goodwill do automatically.
Guess DBA is just too important to expect the fanboys to stop for a moment and think about how they behave.
I now understand.
Erik
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Great, now that DBA has thoroughly been covered here, as it happens in every single discussion about subwoofers on Audiogon, may I ask that the fanboys for it go start a thread all about it and allow this thread to focus on alternatives to buying subwoofers?
That would demonstrate a lot of goodwill, respect and class.
Thank you very much.
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I'm always happy to read when people have positive easy experiences with subs they are happy with. 😁
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@rauliruegas
JL really IS too expensive, it also has some of the best room integration software out there, so it's a mixed bag. I mean, I'm too cheap, but room integration software matters and if the cost was the same I'd trade distortion for proper integration.
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@rauliruegas
You are absolutely correct. More cone excursion = more IM distortion and more Doppler effects. Taking that demand from the main amp and main speakers is a really wonderful thing.
I do think my system would sound better with a subwoofer for music, I just got it to sound so good already I wasn't willing to add the subwoofer. In my case it's a complex undertaking because of the way my 5.1 and music systems are merged together I had a choice of using the sub for movies or music and movies won.
I will probably still attempt this later this year. :)
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You are hilarious. You completely ignore the specific claim of you pushing DBA like a cult (only we can fix it) and jump into something that was not about you, and allegorical.
You are very selective in your outrage.
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Hey @ozzy62 Thanks for being the only person who missed me. :) I have learned with discussions like this that they come to more satisfying endings if A'goners contribute and have their say instead of me trying to reply to every post.
@hilde45 - Thanks for your eloquent synopsis of my work regarding subwoofers and music lovers. It's true, in my mind, that getting a subwoofer is like getting a dog. There's a lot to consider about it's food, mental happiness, exercise, etc. before committing to one, and yet dogs are wonderful. Same for subs.
I have updated my posting with information about the room, and also the statement that frankly my results were surprising and not typical.
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FYI, added room data to the blog post.
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Personally, I feel DSP and it’s ilk "spoils the cow’s milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended.
I do tend to agree with the legendary Floyd tool though is that EQ in the mid and treble may spoil the entire reason you picked your speakers to begin with but if you are adding a sub, you are adding a tone control. That’s just facts. You are already outside of the pure, well disciplined land of hifi purity and the goddess of music and all things holy will no longer show you her face. We are already damned.
What EQ gives you, and DSP in particular, is the ability to control big room nodes which can add 20dB or more to the bass in narrow peaks. 20dB is 100x the power at those spots. In the example on my blog the room nodes are a lot less pronounced but when I had those issues they were awful and EQ was the difference between using a sub or not.
Having been spoiled by measurement equipment, and hearing and reading stories of audiophiles attempting to integrate a sub or speaker to a room without it, I simply cannot imagine attempting the process by ear. Life is too short.
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He knows full well the key to good bass is multiple bass sources, not a single sub
@millercarbon I would appreciate you not speaking for me, thank you.
Yes, from the literature DBA sounds like a fine idea. It is the number of devices and the religious zealotry which you have used to promote it, and this line is a perfect example. There are a number of solutions and DBA may be fine, but so is a good sub in a good room with proper integration can sound glorious.
DBA is by no means an exclusive solution but attempting to sell it as the one and only solution is akin to cultish methinks.
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@pennpencil Those symptoms are classic indicators that you have a room mode problem. Narrow, tall peaks which certain music is hitting and preventing you from setting your subs to a more neutral position.
This is something fixable with EQ and measurement, really super easy.
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The averaged results looking the best
@russ69
They always do, but we take them to avoid optimizing for a 1mm wide cube where our nose might be if it were in a vise. I’m not being deceptive, I’m being thorough. This is considered good practice.
They may sound good but I’m guessing not even in the same league as bigger full range speakers
Au contraire, mon ami!
Audiophiles who do this do one of two things. They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains. In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.
To blend a speaker, of any size, with a subwoofer requires the same careful planning and forethought.
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Yes indeed @Hilde45. If all you do is use an EQ to clip the peaks in the bass you'll be a happy listener. :)
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Hey @Hilde45
I’m definitely not encouraging you not to use them. :) I hope the article instead gives you ideas about how to get the most out of what you got.
In a modest living room, well treated, with modest volumes I got pretty happy. That’s not to say that integrating a sub wouldn’t improve the dynamic range and clarity, but rather that as the 2 way system gets better it gets harder and harder for me to justify the extra lift to put a sub in. I may still for the sake of the blog. :)
Unfortunately for a lot of audiophiles they go from 2-ways with OK bass to 2 ways with crappy sounding subs. :-) I'm hoping these articles help readers get to 2 ways with great bass OR 2 ways with a great sounding subwoofer by measuring the output and making informed decisions.
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