Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music

Sorry gang, I dropped this thread due to being busy at work, and busy re-working the HT part of the living room.  I'll try to catch up on the questions by this weekend.

Hi @rauliruegas 

Couple of things.  I meant that I would expect a 6.5" woofer to have a -3 dB point around 40 Hz. That doesn't mean that there is no output below that.  In fact, upon reflection I realized that when I made these speakers I cheated in a couple of ways.  I already had bass traps, and I always intended these speakers to be used near the rear wall, so I designed the crossover accordingly.  This flies in the face of "best practices" for speakers which is to make speakers that are measured as if in an echo-free world.  My measurements and test location were HUGE cheats and I'm sure the good Dr. Joe D'Appolito would be very unhappy with me.

What I mean by subwoofers being tone controls is that there is by merely introducing a subwoofer we are altering the tonal balance of our system, and that the end result must be set by personal preferences. There is no such thing as an objectively neutral subwoofer installation.

Dear @erik_squires  : My mistake was that I read in your link: cut off at 40hz, now I understand thewhole subject. Thank's.

In the other side, yes integration of subs in a system always alter the tonal balance of that system and at least for me that's exactly what I was looking for when I integrated the subs to my room/system and yes too to your statement:

"  and that the end result must be set by personal preferences. There is no such thing as an objectively neutral subwoofer installation. "

Thank's again for your explanation.

R.

I sold my 2 SVS subs a couple weeks ago. Mostly a net gain, as they are designed for home theater, not hi-end audio. Shortly after I reinserted my Marantz HD CD-1 as a transport, instead of using my Oppo 105 digital out into my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5. The 105s main function is SACD playback.

The HD CD 1 was a huge upgrade, but quickly developed an issue in the magnetic clamp. The entire mechanism is $150 + shipping, and I felt it was time to get a dedicated transport. My research and budget led me to a slightly used Audiolab CDT 6000 (MSRP $650ish). It arrived this morning, and stone cold made my chin drop. The music has so much more body top to bottom, but most notable in the lower mids and bass. Im not missing the subs one bit

hth

With stand mounted speakers it’s critical you have the correct height for your speaker and that’s the foundation of the music that most monitors need , some call it bass which I think it goes beyond that into more reenforced energy and filling up the room and in my room I have cut my Dynaudio stand six down from 25 in to 19 in the front and 18 3/4 in the back allowing the 8 in mid/woofer in my Dynaudio S25 speakers to due just that “ of course your soundstage will become infinite and imaging will snap. With this set up you play with the rake.

I don’t have subs currently but I’d love a pair or more someday, do I feel the need , no.

Some of us may be spoiled, lucky or otherwise gifted (through long, tedious hours of experimentation) with a subwoofer pairing that has ended up very successful. Going on to make more general statements as to their making wonders in other constellations mayn't be prudent, given that quite a few factors could as well lead to the opposite scenario. Claims are no doubt made about DBA setups being very generally worthwhile additions, and they may be so in certain respects not least including frequency response, but that hardly makes them an all-encompassing win in my book - certainly where asymmetrically placed, mono-coupled implementations are concerned. I guess I'm old schooled in that regard - if there is such a thing if only to attain specific traits and ultimate coherency in audio reproduction - maintaining the importance of a high-ish crossover to the mains (that should be high-passed) which further dictates symmetry-and-close-to-the-mains placement and stereo coupling of a pair of subs. Oh, and not least: big, efficient and preferably horn-loaded sub iterations are a must, to my ears, all of which should more easily pave the way for a successful outcome. High-passing the mains I might add would be best achieved running the whole speaker set-up actively, so that any alterations will be done pre-amplification, on signal level and without further interference of a passive crossover. Make of it what you will, but that's the context through which I find subwoofers are implemented most naturally as a seamless part of a whole.  

@tweak1 and @phusis both bring up very good points.  Yes, with infinite time, money and the forbearance of our loved one's integrating subs is possible.  For some it's mythical, and for some a no brainer to add.

I actually am sad more listeners who go through the trouble to buy subs don't love them, but it's a risky business and if you are not well versed in the use of equalizers and speaker matching you may be overcome by the expense, complexity or technology before your Valhalla is prepared. 

A quick update on my experience with SVS Micro 300 and Harbeth m30.1.

A beautiful pairing. Like they’re made for each other. The sub simply fills in the bottom range of most music. The SVS phone app makes all the difference; I would not consider a sub without a remote app now. I find myself changing volume by recording; the sub extends the range if there’s anything "down there". Could be subtle or dramatic - my choice based upon recording. But the extension is always appreciated. Makes the Harbeths into a full range setup. The app gives me almost real time control of volume, low pass filter, and other settings.

The sub itself seems fast and I notice no timing issues. Integration was not brain surgery either. Just not hard with the app and some basic knowledge.

If you’re on the fence, just do it. My guess is you’ll be very happy.

@steveashe

Agree on that. Do the same. Run front speakers (Salon 2’s) full range and adding a velo 15 dd+ to that. The velo goes a little deeper and gives more distortion free spl at lower freq. Gives the opportunity to easily adjust the support from the sub to the recording (or movie). Some recordings need and some music can take more bass. The best of two worlds and not so much talked about. All speakers eq’ed to the room with a combination of Dirac and Roon.

after i sold my horse and buggy, i set eyes on delivering meself from the tryranny of a DBA... als, i am still hostage ... yet we sleep, we dream of bass ...

Steveashe, good to know the M30.1 has worked out for you. The 30.1 certainly does not go too deep in the bass, reaching down to 50 Hz on paper which in my book is inadequate. Although my current Marten Dukes go down to 38 Hz, I still added a sub to the speakers. I am happy to report that the integration of the sub in my system is quite seamless as well.

I attribute the successful implementation to 2 main factors - positioning of the sub which is of utmost importance, and secondly, isolating the sub with proper isolation product. Placing the sub on spikes or directly on the floor without spikes is a rather serious compromise as I have just found.

PS - I heard Debussy's La Mer, LA Philharmonic last night.  Simply an outstanding presentation with deep (for non-Organ) bass notes throughout.  Outstanding.

I also heard tracks from the Hsu/Boston Audio Society that had deep organ notes.  I could see the woofers moving, but to be honest, they were pushing rope!

So, for sure, there are limits to the performance of a 6.5" mid-woofer, but as a lifestyle choice this is an outstanding setup for a small simple system.

PPS - I'm waiting on a rack from Butcher Block Acoustics and after that I am planning on adding a subwoofer, stand by for that post! :)

My Revel F52`s have three 6.5" woofers per side. Currently using a Revel Ultima Sub 15 and two HSU ULS-15 MK2`s all are sealed subs.

The F52`s are run full range and the quick 6.5`s seem to work well with the subs.

I`m happy that they sound as good as they do !

Just added a new image, from another Audiogoner, @dmilev73 to the original posting. What’s interesting is his own speakers are rated to 40 Hz yet easily get to 20 Hz in room. Very similar experience to my own.

It validates my thesis. We shouldn’t rely on these speaker specs to tell us much about what happens when the speakers actually get into a room. The armchair audiophiles who have never measured anything have to reevaluate what they think they know.

I’m sure the DBA crowd will get all frothy over this, but nothing I can do about that.