Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music
I've updated my blog post with more data, more analysis and the conclusion that in my particular case I do not need a subwoofer. I encourage everyone who is on the fence about adding a subwoofer or not to read and comment. I think that either way you'll be able to make more informed buying and configuration choices.
Everyone's situation is different but I hope the post helps you get to the right conclusions.
Just added a new image, from another Audiogoner, @dmilev73to the original posting. What’s interesting is his own speakers are rated to 40 Hz yet easily get to 20 Hz in room. Very similar experience to my own.
It validates my thesis. We shouldn’t rely on these speaker specs to tell us much about what happens when the speakers actually get into a room. The armchair audiophiles who have never measured anything have to reevaluate what they think they know.
I’m sure the DBA crowd will get all frothy over this, but nothing I can do about that.
PS - I heard Debussy's La Mer, LA Philharmonic last night. Simply an outstanding presentation with deep (for non-Organ) bass notes throughout. Outstanding.
I also heard tracks from the Hsu/Boston Audio Society that had deep organ notes. I could see the woofers moving, but to be honest, they were pushing rope!
So, for sure, there are limits to the performance of a 6.5" mid-woofer, but as a lifestyle choice this is an outstanding setup for a small simple system.
Steveashe, good to know the M30.1 has worked out for you. The 30.1 certainly does not go too deep in the bass, reaching down to 50 Hz on paper which in my book is inadequate. Although my current Marten Dukes go down to 38 Hz, I still added a sub to the speakers. I am happy to report that the integration of the sub in my system is quite seamless as well.
I attribute the successful implementation to 2 main factors - positioning of the sub which is of utmost importance, and secondly, isolating the sub with proper isolation product. Placing the sub on spikes or directly on the floor without spikes is a rather serious compromise as I have just found.
after i sold my horse and buggy, i set eyes on delivering meself from the tryranny of a DBA... als, i am still hostage ... yet we sleep, we dream of bass ...
Agree on that. Do the same. Run front speakers (Salon 2’s) full range and adding a velo 15 dd+ to that. The velo goes a little deeper and gives more distortion free spl at lower freq. Gives the opportunity to easily adjust the support from the sub to the recording (or movie). Some recordings need and some music can take more bass. The best of two worlds and not so much talked about. All speakers eq’ed to the room with a combination of Dirac and Roon.
A quick update on my experience with SVS Micro 300 and Harbeth m30.1.
A beautiful pairing. Like they’re made for each other. The sub simply fills in the bottom range of most music. The SVS phone app makes all the difference; I would not consider a sub without a remote app now. I find myself changing volume by recording; the sub extends the range if there’s anything "down there". Could be subtle or dramatic - my choice based upon recording. But the extension is always appreciated. Makes the Harbeths into a full range setup. The app gives me almost real time control of volume, low pass filter, and other settings.
The sub itself seems fast and I notice no timing issues. Integration was not brain surgery either. Just not hard with the app and some basic knowledge.
If you’re on the fence, just do it. My guess is you’ll be very happy.
@tweak1 and @phusis both bring up very good points. Yes, with infinite time, money and the forbearance of our loved one's integrating subs is possible. For some it's mythical, and for some a no brainer to add.
I actually am sad more listeners who go through the trouble to buy subs don't love them, but it's a risky business and if you are not well versed in the use of equalizers and speaker matching you may be overcome by the expense, complexity or technology before your Valhalla is prepared.
Some of us may be spoiled, lucky or otherwise gifted (through long, tedious hours of experimentation) with a subwoofer pairing that has ended up very successful. Going on to make more general statements as to their making wonders in other constellations mayn't be prudent, given that quite a few factors could as well lead to the opposite scenario. Claims are no doubt made about DBA setups being very generally worthwhile additions, and they may be so in certain respects not least including frequency response, but that hardly makes them an all-encompassing win in my book - certainly where asymmetrically placed, mono-coupled implementations are concerned. I guess I'm old schooled in that regard - if there is such a thing if only to attain specific traits and ultimate coherency in audio reproduction - maintaining the importance of a high-ish crossover to the mains (that should be high-passed) which further dictates symmetry-and-close-to-the-mains placement and stereo coupling of a pair of subs. Oh, and not least: big, efficient and preferably horn-loaded sub iterations are a must, to my ears, all of which should more easily pave the way for a successful outcome. High-passing the mains I might add would be best achieved running the whole speaker set-up actively, so that any alterations will be done pre-amplification, on signal level and without further interference of a passive crossover. Make of it what you will, but that's the context through which I find subwoofers are implemented most naturally as a seamless part of a whole.
With stand mounted speakers it’s critical you have the correct height for your speaker and that’s the foundation of the music that most monitors need , some call it bass which I think it goes beyond that into more reenforced energy and filling up the room and in my room I have cut my Dynaudio stand six down from 25 in to 19 in the front and 18 3/4 in the back allowing the 8 in mid/woofer in my Dynaudio S25 speakers to due just that “ of course your soundstage will become infinite and imaging will snap. With this set up you play with the rake.
I don’t have subs currently but I’d love a pair or more someday, do I feel the need , no.
I sold my 2 SVS subs a couple weeks ago. Mostly a net gain, as they are designed for home theater, not hi-end audio. Shortly after I reinserted my Marantz HD CD-1 as a transport, instead of using my Oppo 105 digital out into my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5. The 105s main function is SACD playback.
The HD CD 1 was a huge upgrade, but quickly developed an issue in the magnetic clamp. The entire mechanism is $150 + shipping, and I felt it was time to get a dedicated transport. My research and budget led me to a slightly used Audiolab CDT 6000 (MSRP $650ish). It arrived this morning, and stone cold made my chin drop. The music has so much more body top to bottom, but most notable in the lower mids and bass. Im not missing the subs one bit
Dear @erik_squires : My mistake was that I read in your link: cut off at 40hz, now I understand thewhole subject. Thank's.
In the other side, yes integration of subs in a system always alter the tonal balance of that system and at least for me that's exactly what I was looking for when I integrated the subs to my room/system and yes too to your statement:
" and that the end result must be set by personal preferences. There is no such thing as an objectively neutral subwoofer installation. "
Couple of things. I meant that I would expect a 6.5" woofer to have a -3 dB point around 40 Hz. That doesn't mean that there is no output below that. In fact, upon reflection I realized that when I made these speakers I cheated in a couple of ways. I already had bass traps, and I always intended these speakers to be used near the rear wall, so I designed the crossover accordingly. This flies in the face of "best practices" for speakers which is to make speakers that are measured as if in an echo-free world. My measurements and test location were HUGE cheats and I'm sure the good Dr. Joe D'Appolito would be very unhappy with me.
What I mean by subwoofers being tone controls is that there is by merely introducing a subwoofer we are altering the tonal balance of our system, and that the end result must be set by personal preferences. There is no such thing as an objectively neutral subwoofer installation.
Sorry gang, I dropped this thread due to being busy at work, and busy re-working the HT part of the living room. I'll try to catch up on the questions by this weekend.
P.S. - I just added distortion measurements to the original blog. Honestly, the numbers seem low, about 2% at 20 Hz???
I’m in the middle of a HT install (with a sub!) so I may not be able to get back to it, but I wanted you all to know I did in fact do more on this but that it probably deserves more exploration before I stand by the distortion numbers.
Dear @prof : I don't know ofr read somewhere that a CS7.2 owner used subs integrated with liberating the Thiel woofers for that low bass range posted.
Yes, I know and heard once thge Thiel sub. My post was specific for your Thiel model but I have to say that my last listening to that model was several years ago and " things " change over time as our " mind " too.
Actually Thiel made a number of subwoofers to go with his speakers. Apparently really excellent and made specially to blend with Thiel speakers, especially.
So it's not like Thiel speakers were "subwoofer proof" or something. I know that a number of people found great satisfaction pairing their Thiels with subwoofers. I happen to not be one of them, that's all.
And I was not critiquing people who use subs. Why would I? Tons of people have found subwoofers enhanced the enjoyment of their system. I was only talking about my personal experience and reaction to subwoofer systems I've heard, and in regard to my own attempts to add subwoofers.
I've seen very elaborate subwoofer threads (e.g. on AVSforum and elsewhere) and it amazes me how much effort some have gone in to integrating subwoofers - even building them DIY, measuring room response, lots of experimenting with room correction, treatments etc. If that's their bliss, more power to them. I just feel I have only so much time I want to devote to such a project, especially given how much I like the sound of my speakers as they are.
Dear @prof : Well, you are owner of Thiel speakers and this per sé says a lot. Till today every time I listened to Thiel speakers normally I like it and performs with high quality level under its model design limitations.
JT designs are all excellent not only in the choosed drivers but its box design/bracing. When we touch the speakers even at 90+dbs SPL we can’t be aware of almost any vibration/resonance.
JT speakers, even his top models, does not permit bi-amp by design. His designs were designed to be " untouchable " by audiophiles/DYs.
Your speakers does not needs subs and that’s why you do not need it, the CS 7.2 reproduce bass frequencies as low as around 23hz to 25hz and with low distortion levels but not all audiophiles own your Thiel speakers and that’s why we almost all needs subwoofers . The OP needs it too.
So your critic about the ones that we use subs are really unfair. Problem with all two way speaker designs and almost all 3 and up ways speaker designs is that normally the woofer crossover frequency is to high at around 350hz-400hz and in 2-way designs at least at 2khz and those facts makes that IMD been really high, so when we liberates the woofers from bass frequencies below 80hz-100hz then we have a true and real improvement that you or any one else can't make a negative critic because those subs are a specific and real necessity to enhance our quality level performance in our room/system of what we like : enjoyment of MUSIC.
That’s all and yes not for you. Btw, as a side advantages when integrated subs the main amplifier(s) are under lower distresss and room/system is benefited with higher headroom where it matters because the main amps are working a lot better in the mid/hi ranges and now we have dedicated powered subs designed expressely for the low bass range: we have all we need or can dream. Don't you think?
I was always quite satisfied with the sound from my Thiel 2.7s (spec’d down to 35Hz though probably a bit lower in room). After reading the billionth "you need subwoofers to Have Complete Audio Nirvana" post by subwoofer proselytizers I finally gave in to give ’em another try. (Except for the studios which mix my work, I’ve never heard a satisfying audiophile system with a subwoofer, even when the owner of said system was thrilled and thought the blend "seamless.")
I used some JL Audio subwoofers, their wonderful CR-1 crossover, and some DSP via a Dspeaker anti-mode. The CR-1 in particular was a marvel in terms of increasing the ease of dialing in a subwoofer (and doing really simple "with subs/without subs" at the press of a button comparison).
I got a suprisingly close to seamless blend fairly quickly, though spent weeks dialing things in, playing around, different crossover points, positions, one sub, two subs etc.
In the end I simply liked the sound of my speakers without the subwoofers. First of all, I found the sub rarely added musically relevant sound. And yes, yes I know about how subs also are supposed to "enrich the sound at all frequencies, and also bring more dimensionality and better soundstaging" as they are enhancing depth cues in the bass. I just didn’t find that aspect much better either.
I found my speakers just sounded more coherent, more soild and punchy and dense, and with the exact tone I’ve always loved about them. Adding the sub ALWAYS altered the tone slightly, no matter how subtely I dialed them in, and some of the "magic" went away.
I have no doubt some would have heard the combo and preferred the subs. But not to my ears.
I also did a test with my 23 year old son who listens to my system once in a while. I sat him down and had the crossover box on the sofa near him. I simply told him to listen to some music, and push the button on and off. He had no idea what the button did, or what I was testing. The button simply brought the subs in and out of the system - going between the subs crossed over, to running the Thiels full range.
Turned out he thought it sounded better without the subs too.
It’s guaranteed that subwoofer fans will immediately presume "Well, that’s just because you didn’t dial them in perfectly." That certainly could be the case.
It may also be the case that if I heard your system I’d detect the seams in your sub’s integration, even if you think you had them dialed in perfectly. Maybe not. But it’s happened a number of times when I’ve heard subwoofer sets ups the owner claimed to have "done it right."
In any case, I spent weeks dialing them in, and I have good ears (work in pro sound), and frankly that’s all the work I really want to put in to subwoofers. I’m not interested in making subwoofers a second hobby. So ultimately I sold it all.
And aesthetically it was a relief. I hate the added complexity of adding several subwoofers, the extra cables, especially more AC cables, finding places to put those ugly boxes (I hate the look of subwoofers - never seen a single set up enhanced by them).
So, I’ve decided at this point subs aren’t for me. Maybe I’ll try something else some day long in the future.
(Even though subs didn’t tickle my fancy, the JL Audio stuff is fantastic btw, especially that CR-1 crossover! Transparent and a cinch to use!)
Dear @erik_squires : Dead silence. That maybe I just did not understand yet what you did it and that I ask to you 3 times if I'm wrong is not to agressive for your dead silence. ? ! ? ! ? !
@erik_squires : Yes, I know that no one can be truer to the recording that's a desired room/system target but I think that what you did it had a different target.
Dear @erik_squires : Again re-reading your link we really can think what you stated there: that your 2-way speakers ( system. ), that cut out at 40hz, and after all what you did it are performing at 20hz.
My take on all those:
the source recorded signal information certainly and normally goes lower than 30hz-40hz and even at 20hz or lower but your speaker can't reproduce what's in the recording that's different of what you achived in your room: two different things.
In the low bass range what you measured in your room is not what is in the recording: your room/system is reproducing something different down there that additional tame the other frequency ranges.
In my view you need subwoofers and not as a " tone control " but as a necessity for any 2-way speakers or even any passive speakers that crossover 150hz taking in count that every time we make that the speakers IMD goes lower we have a true quality performance levels no matters what.
In my case I like to listen what is in the recording, it's my main room/system target and for me can't be in other way.
With all respect I think you are not listening what is in the recording, you can't do it through the link wide explanation.
Maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?
Btw, in the same way that an amplifier or a preamp or a TT is not really a " tone control " subwoofers certainly are not. Subwoofers are part of a speaker as are the tweeters or mid-range drivers.
In the old times Infinity top of the line speakers came with subwoofers ( non powered stand alone ones. ) and you can't buy it with out those subs towers. Today things changed a little and there are several speaker manufacturers where their top of the line models comes with powered subs integrated in the same whole speaker boxes and other separated as with the vintage Infinity. Certainly not a " tone control " audio item but a true/real necessity to reproduce MUSIC.
@erik_squires : I re-read your link and is very clear why your sub gone:
" For my own listening levels and choice of music there is almost no reason to add a subwoofer,..."
We MUSIC lovers/audiophiles that are mere " mortals " have not your high technical knowledge levels, tools and certainly not your very specific and unique targets.
What you did it is not easy to duplicate but been our targets different means your " information " is exclusive for you inside the overall limitations solution.
Your link is a learning one ( at least for me ) and tell us a different way to make " things ". Certainly not for me.
Btw, you said something like: " the subs are a rtone control " and what you did it too.
Dear @erik_squires : Several of those DBA fans are really that: fans and you know which one is ( non derogatory meaning. ) when with out ask nothing to the OP just posted it does not matters that the OP is looking for advise of subs to listen MUSIC at one and only one seat position. Obviously they need to learn but a fan normally is not abble to learn is not willing to learn.
Now, my advise to you for and for any one is to go for Velodyne due that even in the low bass we need to look for quality in that reproduction range and THD figure in that frequency range is quite critical because its tame all the other frequency ranges.
THD in Velodyne is as low as 0.5% where no other affordable true subs can get. I think that only Magico 40K each sub can even that Velodyne critical measurement.
Dear friends: Normally I don't re-vised/recheck my posts and now that I did it I made a mistake about " fan " that I wanted to mean the same as erik and writed a different word.
My apologizes to all fans and I will fix my mistake that was and is not my attitude about.
So after watching dozens of posts by the DBA fanboys (it’s not derogatory) I ask for the specific discussion of DBA to be taken elsewhere, as many many other thread starters have done in the past, and those with courtesy and goodwill do automatically.
Guess DBA is just too important to expect the fanboys to stop for a moment and think about how they behave.
I encourage everyone who is on the fence about adding a subwoofer or not to read and comment. I think that either way you'll be able to make more informed buying and configuration choices.
Oh dear, the OP seems bent out of shape. You assume too much. How do you know that the fence sitters have even heard about a DBA let alone know it's purpose? To make an informed choice one needs information, does one not? Helloo ?
You encourage people to comment yet when they do and when it does not fit in with your approach you ask them to desist.
If you wanted only alternatives to subs to be discussed then you should have put that in the post's title and not added that fact in later when members have given the time and effort to inform.
By the way, calling someone a fanboy is contemptuous. I was in no way disrespectful, so clean up your act.
Sameyers1 -- I don't recall how to do the neat @thing -- I replaced a similar Proceed amp with Parasound JC 1 monoblocks to drive KEF Reference 107/2s, and found they provided substantially more usable LF extension. I suspect JC 1s might do the same for your nice Aerial 8bs.
Great, now that DBA has thoroughly been covered here, as it happens in every single discussion about subwoofers on Audiogon, may I ask that the fanboys for it go start a thread all about it and allow this thread to focus on alternatives to buying subwoofers?
That would demonstrate a lot of goodwill, respect and class.
subs don't have to be 12" or even 10" they can be 8" or even 6". They don't have to be boxes either they can be tubes
Yes, indeed. The 3 subs I mentioned in my earlier post were discussed with my mate and his wife where I made suggestions about how they could be integrated into their room. The boxes had a small square footprint and were built to the height suited to their purpose. One was placed next to a bookcase and painted the exact same colour. The second served as a stand for a large pot plant and the third served as a side table replacing the table that had been there before. The whole installation was unobtrusive and took up very little extra space.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
The tube MC referred to allows more options. They can be used horizontally and vertically. As well as placing behind a sofa they can be used in the horizontal corners formed by the wall/ceiling junction.
6.5" drivers are common and they do not need to be specifically designed for 'subwoofer' use. If you regard them as 'acoustic equalisers' they will do something that is difficult to conceptualise if you have never heard a DBA. You get the music robbing nulls filled in and the shouty peaks tamed.
The above is suggested for owners of small rooms always complaining that they just don't have the space. If you do have the space then go to 10" or 12" drivers and enjoy the benefit of muti-subs down to a lower frequency.
The number of subs and their size depends on who wears the trousers in the house. In the above example my mate definitely wears the trousers, he just has to ask his wife which ones he can wear! 😉
Absorption, diffusion and bass trapping will take this to the next level. I have been playing with this for some time and I can tell you that some of my mates who were always introducing new and expensive components, endlessly chasing their tail, have mellowed out and are basking in their glorious sound, being more interested in the music now.
oh, forgot to mention…i am a bass player of no note, a sometime recording engineer and host of several mastering sessions a year in my reference room. Ciao.
@sameyers1Interesting advice. Chuck really enjoys taking Erik and many others to task for recommending acoustic treatments, maybe you just haven’t read enough of his posts…yet. You must be aware of what he thinks of Levinson gear…Your post was clear, lucid and not rude to the OP. Your post is also cognizant that maybe not everyone wants a forest of subwoofers and wire strung across the back fourty…
No doubt you understand that classical symphonic bass is not mono. Maybe below 100 ish hz it is..but you probably also understand the rich vibrant and loud harmonics of a scaling standup bass…way above 100 hz. A swarm is but one answer, with some texture , imaging and harmonic downsides. Flat frequency response is an upside. I know a certain Strad owner with great high passed main speakers with integral subs with 11 bands of analog EQ below 120 hz. No swarm desired or needed. High passing the main amp for magic midrange is crucial. I complimented your ability to detect clipping in your great system.
@lemonhazeis correct, RT60 is an excellent tool for working the room. Some of us have achieved near perfect control room RT60 numbers using modern measurement tools, a variety of room treatments , natural furnishings AND listening . We bring in peers to help. Fun.
Finally rock is not a good audiophile sub test, a Fender Precision or Kick drum just don’t go very low, so it’s more about mid bass slam and freeing up the mains and main amp to reproduce those IMD free as @rauliruegasso astutely noted.
One of the many beautiful aspects of DBA is more subs beats bigger subs every time. The idea of "proper space" for example. If you understand the concept then you know your four subs don't have to be 12" or even 10" they can be 8" or even 6". They don't have to be boxes either they can be tubes. Hsu Research used to make subs that were only about 8" diameter by 30" long and tuned to 20Hz. "Proper space" then is what you already have behind every sofa, under or behind all kinds of furniture, and at the corner of every room.
"Integration" with a DBA comes down to throwing them down, setting xo and level, and enjoy. Really, more people should try it to appreciate just how painless easy and effective it is.
...agree with the positive aspects of DBA, but in need of a proper space to make matters work....an integrated single sub works, but always needs a tweak to seem apropos to the program....
Integration, whether in audio or cultures, always seems an 'iffy issue'...imh...
And the room rules when it comes to augmenting bass, ignored at peril.....
When I set up a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s to augment KEF Reference 1s, I ran the usual sweeps using the SMS-1 bass manager and was surprised in-room response of the KEFs was pretty flat to 30 Hz, then dropped sharply. So I low-passed at 45 Hz, and it sounded pretty good. I decided to try 80 Hz, and that transformed the listening experience, big detailed soundstage with no awareness of the subs. Marchand provides balanced passive high-pass at 80 Hz -- Charley Hanson had admonished me not to put active high-pass between an Ayre preamp and amp.
I've been following this thread and have decided to weigh in and I acknowledge that all of my comments are simply my observations and opinions. I am not as interested or competent in the technical aspects of audio as @erik_squires, @millercarbonand others who frequently post. I am, however, an avid music listener and my wife and I both play musical instruments and frequently attend classical and jazz concerts. Our audio system is the vehicle for our music listening.
1. I agree with @rauliruegasthat for some listeners adding one or more subs that generate significant distortion may be worse than not having a sub. I say "for some listeners" because if someone is adding one or more subs in an attempt to create the sound of a live rock concert, adding subs that generate distortion is overwhelmed by the distortion already in the music, created by the electronics of the performing artists - think Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, The Who, etc. Having subs that produce generous amounts of bass will help get one closer to the high volumes and bass of such groups.
2. I also agree with another contributor who noted that adding one or more subs may be less important for those who listen to acoustic music - classical and jazz, folk, etc. While much classical and most jazz do have significant amounts of bass, the acoustic bass is typically part of a large orchestra in classical and is typically part of a rhythm section in jazz. For such music, and particularly for chamber music, folk and some bluegrass, the bass frequencies are a less significant part of the overall performance than in rock music, although much symphonic music has a significant amount of percussion and there are organ pieces that will challenge the best audio systems.
3. I will not disagree with the benefits of a well integrated subs or subs. They can improve not only the bass response of an audio system, but also improve the soundstage and the response of the drivers in the main speakers. This leads to another point.
4. What has not been mentioned in the prior posts is the importance of having sufficient and high quality amplification for the main speakers of a system. To provide low distortion and lifelike transient response in something like a large symphonic work, the amplifier(s) need to match the requirements of the speakers. As an example, our primary speakers are a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 8b's. These are modestly sized, three-way floor standing speakers that are relatively inefficient (86 dB sensitivity), with published frequency response of 28 - 22k Hz +/- 2 dB. They are 4 ohm speakers that drop to almost 2 ohms impedance at certain frequencies, a challenge for most amps. Fortunately, our then dealer paired them with a Proceed (Levinson design) HPA-2 amp with specs of 250 w/ch at 8 ohms, 500 w/ch at 4 ohms. The amps have never clipped that I could hear in the years we've owned them and provide high current that drives the 10.7" woofers in the speakers with aplomb. I mention all this because a few years ago I auditioned in home a high-end Luxman piece as a possible replacement for our amp. The Luxman was rated at 150 watts/ch at 8 ohms so I figured we were fine. Wrong - the clipping was very audible and obvious at high volume transients while listening to a symphony. If I had our M&K sub integrated into our two-channel system the Luxman amp would have been splendid for at lower volumes it produced lovely, neutral and highly detailed sound.
5. I have benefited from tips provided by @millercarbonin several of his posts and in direct communications with him. His recommendations for acoustic treatments noticeably improved the music's clarity and soundstage in our listening room. I, however, share the view that while subs can be very helpful, they are not necessarily the end all. And the DBA, multi-sub approach advocated by @millercarbon is not feasible in many multi-purpose listening rooms even if one uses wireless subs. I cannot dispute the DBA may sound "better" whatever that means, but for us integrating even one M&K sub into our system was a challenge and I don't want to have to adjust the bass volume as different albums are played. I want to spend my time listening to the music. So our sub is used for home theater but not for music and we are content with the reproduction provided by our speakers and amp with both analog and digital sources.
I love adding a sub to music - i spent 25 years without one for music - since i added one 3 years ago - im loving the sound with them. its all individual - always has -always will
With minimonitors im using the sub they way it was intended to be used. With floor standers - i still have a sub turned on -albeit barely.
It's simple, if you are serious about achieving great sound there are two requirements: room treatment and a DBA system. Read articles from Welti, Floyd and Geddes
This will lift your system above the pedestrian, that is any system not employing subs.
There is a scientific goal with treatment where the quest is to get the sound to decay a certain amount in a certain time and only broad-band absorption including bass traps will provide this. Those mentioning books as diffusers and drapes and other silly things have little effect.
EQ of course can not know how long the sound takes to decay and even if it did what can it possibly do? All it can do is boost or attenuate and there is a limit how much it can boost before your amp runs out of steam. EQ is not necessary in a good room.
I helped a friend where we installed 3 small 8" subs, the lowest we got from some scavenged drivers is about down to 45Hz. which does not really count as a sub but overpowering bass was not the reason for doing this. These 3 small sealed boxes provided a large number of peaks and partial nulls that were very much less than before. So what we ended up with, beyond the 32Hz of his main speakers was a smooth response from about 50HZ upwards. Some full nulls had been filled in that had previously cancelled any music info. In other words music previously completely absent was now heard and the overall effect was truly amazing with a sweet spot the width of the speakers. Everything improved. Consider also that no component upgrade can do what I have just outlined.
As I said, if you're serious!
No subs are the domain of the bootless and unhorsed 😁
No reason not to have a quality sub. An SVS Pro is an affordable quality option that has a dedicated iphone app that lets you adjust the EQ, crossover, volume, etc to your liking. I use different saved settings for music and video. I also adjust it based on the particular album I listen to.
Using Rel s5 Sho subs with my Thiel 3.7s. I would never go back to no subs. There is a presence and expansion of the sound stage that I would very much miss. That said, if you listen to chamber music or music without much lower frequency information, I would image you wouldn't miss having subs in your system.
I didn't do much research. I had been thinking about adding a sub for a while when I happened upon Herb Reichert Stereophile review of the SVS Micro 3000 w/ M30.2's. It just seemed to be a good match so I didn't look much further. I did consider the KEF KC62 for a moment (I think that's the model, their small sub) but it was almost double the price.
@steveashe thanks for sharing your experience with the SVS Micro 3000. Can you share more about what you compared it to and why you chose the SVS? Given your Pass Int-25 and the limitations connecting to a sub, I would have thought a REL or similar sub with speaker connections would have been an easier option. What tipped you towards the Micro? I’m actively shopping for a new sub and Micro is on the short list.
Quick update on my addition of an SVS Micro 3000 to my M30.1 system.
I speak for myself in my living room with my equipment. LR is maybe 17 x 13 and I have the Harbeth's about 24" from the back wall, with the sub in between the speakers, closer to the right speaker but in the same plane as both. I think I mentioned before that I use an Innuous Zen Mk3 streaming qobuz into an MHDT Orchid DAC into a Pass INT-25 integrated which feeds the speakers and the sub. The sub is connected to the speaker outputs of the Pass by the use of a speaker to line level attenuator. Kent English from Pass helped with this solution (so did SVS tech support). I would rather have used lower level line outputs but that option was not available.
It integrates just fine :-). I played with some of the settings (volume, low pass filter, parametric EQ mainly) and came up with what I found works for me. Easy to hear a very positive difference in "palpability" of my music (mainly acoustic, old rock, jazz). The sub makes for a more "complete" performance. Depth. Bigger soundstage.
It's a fine addition to my system. I like it a lot and it was not very challenging to do by ear.
Here how I got a great bass from mediocre Triangle Signatures.
1. Buy Luxman 120A vintage amp and connect it to the bass speaker posts
2. Connect Maven receiver to the mid-hi speaker posts
3. Use receiver Pre out to connect to Luxman.
Drive speakers with both amplifiers and use volume on Luxman as tone control for bass. Triangles came alive as if by magic. They really start to rock and jazz never sounded so good. At some passages they bass was reverberating in my sofa floor and you can feel it with your 80% liquid body.
Dear @erik_squires : You are rigth and we need to remember that all audio items choices come with its trade-offs and is up to us to choose the best trade-offs for each one of us.
Something I learned is that in any room/system what determines the overall quality performance level belongs how good is its bass range and as better the room/system bass range as better that room/system quality performance.
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