Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music

Aw, c'mon Erik! You've been schooled by He Who Knows. LOL

Personally, I feel DSP and it’s ilk "spoils the cow’s milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended.

I do tend to agree with the legendary Floyd tool though is that EQ in the mid and treble may spoil the entire reason you picked your speakers to begin with but if you are adding a sub, you are adding a tone control. That’s just facts. You are already outside of the pure, well disciplined land of hifi purity and the goddess of music and all things holy will no longer show you her face. We are already damned.

What EQ gives you, and DSP in particular, is the ability to control big room nodes which can add 20dB or more to the bass in narrow peaks. 20dB is 100x the power at those spots. In the example on my blog the room nodes are a lot less pronounced but when I had those issues they were awful and EQ was the difference between using a sub or not.

Having been spoiled by measurement equipment, and hearing and reading stories of audiophiles attempting to integrate a sub or speaker to a room without it, I simply cannot imagine attempting the process by ear. Life is too short.

FYI, added room data to the blog post.

Hey @ozzy62  Thanks for being the only person who missed me. :)  I have learned with discussions like this that they come to more satisfying endings if A'goners contribute and have their say instead of me trying to reply to every post.

@hilde45 - Thanks for your eloquent synopsis of my work regarding subwoofers and music lovers.  It's true, in my mind, that getting a subwoofer is like getting a dog.  There's a lot to consider about it's food, mental happiness, exercise, etc. before committing to one, and yet dogs are wonderful.  Same for subs.

I have updated my posting with information about the room, and also the statement that frankly my results were surprising and not typical. 

if you are adding a sub, you are adding a tone control. That’s just facts. You are already outside of the pure, well disciplined land of hifi purity and the goddess of music and all things holy will no longer show you her face. We are already damned.

People accuse me of all kinds of over the top exaggeration and insult, but I've never even come close to vilifying anything as unholy and damned. G-d Eric the stuff you get away with. Tsushima and his little crew of familiars would be all over me in a nanosecond if I said you are impure and damned to hell for your choice of speaker. Can't fathom even a shred of it but I must admit, you got your act down son. That you do.

You go, girl.

@edcyn  what sub are you using with your Nola Boxers?  I’m looking to buy a sub for mine and curious about your setup.  I’ve been looking at smaller sub like SVS SB3000 and REL t7x.  As to OP post, I think it’s great that he was able to tune his room to the point where he doesn’t feel he needs the sub.  That clearly took some effort and gave me some pointers on what I can do in my room to improve it.  Thanks, OP.

• @millercarbon

You are hilarious. You completely ignore the specific claim of you pushing DBA like a cult (only we can fix it) and jump into something that was not about you, and allegorical.

You are very selective in your outrage.

@nymarty

Paradigm DSP 3100. And hey -- glad there's another NOLA Boxer user out there!

Dear @erik_squires : I’m not against what you already achieved because at the end is what you like and what you think.

I added subs to my really full range speakers for one main reason that name is: lower IMD. My ADS per sé goes down to 16hz but you have to pay a very high price for that: high IMD.

You have a 2-way speaker designs and this could means that you crossover 2.5khz to 3.5khz ( more or less ) from the woofer to the tweeter.

In any two way speaker design the IMD is rally high and this is the reason why you in reality need a pair of subs: to lower dramatically the IMD and when you do that the " ligth " comes out and your room/system will shines as ever before and as a side advantage is that now you can go deeper and with better quality performance in your bass range that’s where the MUSIC foundation lives and obviously that the electronics of your main speakers will works with out any kind of distress and with higher headroom and you don't need to measure anything because the best " measure " to that IMD are the IMD comparison you make trhough listening tests before and after. You can tame the IMD but you can't disappeared by room treatment or any other way because the IMD is developed by the speaker 2-way woofer.

Imagine your today IMD levels in your speakers when the movements on the woofer reproducing 35hz-40hz at the same time needs to reproduce frequency range above to at least 1khz ! ! ? ? ?

Tha’s my take for subs In any passive speakers.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@rauliruegas

You are absolutely correct. More cone excursion = more IM distortion and more Doppler effects. Taking that demand from the main amp and main speakers is a really wonderful thing.

I do think my system would sound better with a subwoofer for music, I just got it to sound so good already I wasn't willing to add the subwoofer.  In my case it's a complex undertaking because of the way my 5.1 and music systems are merged together I had a choice of using the sub for movies or music and movies won.

I will probably still attempt this later this year. :)

Hello,

I use two of the  JL Audio F110 subs with the JL Audio CR1 crossover. My speakers are rated down to 25hz at -3db.  I am one of those goofballs who use their two channel system as part of the surround system. Both my two channel system and the CR1 crossover have home theater bypass so I can use the JL Audio subs with both systems. In my room which is 24’x13.8’x8’. I have two REL T9 subs which I will add later. I mostly listen to 2 channel split between tt and my DAC. It all sounds really, really good. I have found that the subs make everything sound more real because bass adds dimension and space because it enhances or lets you realize time. I sometimes like to listen at low volume. By adding the subs it lets me get great dynamic range. I know subs are heavy and you don’t want to pay shipping to try them out. If you live in the Chicagoland area this store lets you try before you buy. 
holmaudio.com

This is a great way to see if subs can make a difference. I know everyone has their preferences. By demoing in your home you can make up

your own mind. I hope this helps. 

Dear @erik_squires  : I understand your point. Now the side advantage of subs is not only to go deeper in the bass range but with a better quality levels. Anyway your needs do to that 5.1 makes the subs a hard call but I think you will solve it.

R.

Dear @hshifi  : I understand your need too and I know very well the well regarded JL and Rel subs that hmore marketing that realities. What am I saying with realities?, example the JL THD is over 5% against the 0.5% in the Velodyne and Rel is not way better than JL in that very critical regards. So you have land down there to improve MUSIC and HT enjoyment the better.

R.

@erik_squires,

Yes, I was kind of hoping that I could find one like Nano in the used market but no luck with it. Good news is that MiniDSP just announces (3 days ago) they are going to release MiniDSP Flex/digit which is basically a stripped down of SHD (without streamer) for sub $500 and allows you to process up to four channels with digital out. Still expensive relative to Nano but much cheaper than SHD.

@rauliruegas 

JL really IS too expensive, it also has some of the best room integration software out there, so it's a mixed bag.  I mean, I'm too cheap, but room integration software matters and if the cost was the same I'd trade distortion for proper integration.

Dear @erik_squires : You are rigth and we need to remember that all audio items choices come with its trade-offs and is up to us to choose the best trade-offs for each one of us.

Something I learned is that in any room/system what determines the overall quality performance level belongs how good is its bass range  and as better the room/system bass range as better that room/system quality performance.

R.

Here how I got a great bass from mediocre Triangle Signatures. 

1. Buy Luxman 120A vintage amp and connect it to the bass speaker posts

2. Connect Maven receiver to the mid-hi speaker posts

3. Use receiver Pre out to connect to Luxman.

Drive speakers with both amplifiers and use volume on Luxman as tone control for bass. Triangles came alive as if by magic. They really start to rock and jazz never sounded so good. At some passages they bass was reverberating in my sofa floor and you can feel it with your 80% liquid body.

I highly recommend it.

Quick update on my addition of an SVS Micro 3000 to my M30.1 system. 

I speak for myself in my living room with my equipment.  LR is maybe 17 x 13 and I have the Harbeth's about 24" from the back wall, with the sub in between the speakers, closer to the right speaker but in the same plane as both.   I think I mentioned before that I use an Innuous Zen Mk3 streaming qobuz into an MHDT Orchid DAC into a Pass INT-25 integrated which feeds the speakers and the sub.  The sub is connected to the speaker outputs of the Pass by the use of a speaker to line level attenuator.  Kent English from Pass helped with this solution (so did SVS tech support).  I would rather have used lower level line outputs but that option was not available.  

It integrates just fine :-).  I played with some of the settings (volume, low pass filter, parametric EQ mainly) and came up with what I found works for me.  Easy to hear a very positive difference in "palpability" of my music (mainly acoustic, old rock, jazz).  The sub makes for a more "complete" performance.  Depth. Bigger soundstage. 

It's a fine addition to my system. I like it a lot and it was not very challenging to do by ear.  

@steveashe  thanks for sharing your experience with the SVS Micro 3000.  Can you share more about what you compared it to and why you chose the SVS?  Given your Pass Int-25 and the limitations connecting to a sub, I would have thought a REL or similar sub with speaker connections would have been an easier option.  What tipped you towards the Micro?  I’m actively shopping for a new sub and Micro is on the short list.

I didn't do much research.  I had been thinking about adding a sub for a while when I happened upon Herb Reichert Stereophile review of the SVS Micro 3000 w/ M30.2's.  It just seemed to be a good match so I didn't look much further.  I did consider the KEF KC62 for a moment (I think that's the model, their small sub) but it was almost double the price.  

I'm always happy to read when people have positive easy experiences with subs they are happy with. 😁

it's all down to set up. if you can set the sub up properly it sounds good. if you cannot, then do not go for it

Using Rel s5 Sho subs with my Thiel 3.7s.  I would never go back to no subs.  There is a presence and expansion of the sound stage that I would very much miss.  That said, if you listen to chamber music or music without much lower frequency information, I would image you wouldn't miss having subs in your system.  

No reason not to have a quality sub.  An SVS Pro is an affordable quality option that has a dedicated iphone app that lets you adjust the EQ, crossover, volume, etc to your liking.  I use different saved settings for music and video.  I also adjust it based on the particular album I listen to.  

It's simple, if you are serious about achieving great sound there are two requirements: room treatment and a DBA system. Read articles from Welti, Floyd and Geddes

This will lift your system above the pedestrian, that is any system not employing subs.

There is a scientific goal with treatment where the quest is to get the sound to decay a certain amount in a certain time and only broad-band absorption including bass traps will provide this. Those mentioning books as diffusers and drapes and other silly things have little effect.

EQ of course can not know how long the sound takes to decay and even if it did what can it possibly do? All it can do is boost or attenuate and there is a limit how much it can boost before your amp runs out of steam. EQ is not necessary in a good room.

I helped a friend where we installed 3 small 8" subs, the lowest we got from some scavenged drivers is about down to 45Hz. which does not really count as a sub but overpowering bass was not the reason for doing this. These 3 small sealed boxes provided a large number of peaks and partial nulls that were very much less than before. So what we ended up with, beyond the 32Hz of his main speakers was a smooth response from about 50HZ upwards. Some full nulls had been filled in that had previously cancelled any music info. In other words music previously completely absent was now heard and the overall effect was truly amazing with a sweet spot the width of the speakers. Everything improved. Consider also that no component upgrade can do what I have just outlined.

As I said, if you're serious!

No subs are the domain of the bootless and unhorsed 😁 

I love adding a sub to music - i spent 25 years without one for music - since i added one 3 years ago - im loving the sound with them. its all individual - always has -always will

With minimonitors im using the sub they way it was intended to be used. With floor standers - i still have a sub turned on -albeit barely.

I've been following this thread and have decided to weigh in and I acknowledge that all of my comments are simply my observations and opinions. I am not as interested or competent in the technical aspects of audio as @erik_squires, @millercarbon and others who frequently post. I am, however, an avid music listener and my wife and I both play musical instruments and frequently attend classical and jazz concerts. Our audio system is the vehicle for our music listening.

1. I agree with @rauliruegas that for some listeners adding one or more subs that generate significant distortion may be worse than not having a sub. I say "for some listeners" because if someone is adding one or more subs in an attempt to create the sound of a live rock concert, adding subs that generate distortion is overwhelmed by the distortion already in the music, created by the electronics of the performing artists - think Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, The Who, etc. Having subs that produce generous amounts of bass will help get one closer to the high volumes and bass of such groups.

2. I also agree with another contributor who noted that adding one or more subs may be less important for those who listen to acoustic music - classical and jazz, folk, etc. While much classical and most jazz do have significant amounts of bass, the acoustic bass is typically part of a large orchestra in classical and is typically part of a rhythm section in jazz. For such music, and particularly for chamber music, folk and some bluegrass, the bass frequencies are a less significant part of the overall performance than in rock music, although much symphonic music has a significant amount of percussion and there are organ pieces that will challenge the best audio systems.

3. I will not disagree with the benefits of a well integrated subs or subs. They can improve not only the bass response of an audio system, but also improve the soundstage and the response of the drivers in the main speakers. This leads to another point.

4. What has not been mentioned in the prior posts is the importance of having sufficient and high quality amplification for the main speakers of a system. To provide low distortion and lifelike transient response in something like a large symphonic work, the amplifier(s) need to match the requirements of the speakers. As an example, our primary speakers are a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 8b's. These are modestly sized, three-way floor standing speakers that are relatively inefficient (86 dB sensitivity), with published frequency response of 28 - 22k Hz +/- 2 dB. They are 4 ohm speakers that drop to almost 2 ohms impedance at certain frequencies, a challenge for most amps. Fortunately, our then dealer paired them with a Proceed (Levinson design) HPA-2 amp with specs of 250 w/ch at 8 ohms, 500 w/ch at 4 ohms. The amps have never clipped that I could hear in the years we've owned them and provide high current that drives the 10.7" woofers in the speakers with aplomb. I mention all this because a few years ago I auditioned in home a high-end Luxman piece as a possible replacement for our amp. The Luxman was rated at 150 watts/ch at 8 ohms so I figured we were fine. Wrong - the clipping was very audible and obvious at high volume transients while listening to a symphony. If I had our M&K sub integrated into our two-channel system the Luxman amp would have been splendid for at lower volumes it produced lovely, neutral and highly detailed sound.

5. I have benefited from tips provided by @millercarbon in several of his posts and in direct communications with him. His recommendations for acoustic treatments noticeably improved the music's clarity and soundstage in our listening room. I, however, share the view that while subs can be very helpful, they are not necessarily the end all. And the DBA, multi-sub approach advocated by @millercarbon is not feasible in many multi-purpose listening rooms even if one uses wireless subs. I cannot dispute the DBA may sound "better" whatever that means, but for us integrating even one M&K sub into our system was a challenge and I don't want to have to adjust the bass volume as different albums are played. I want to spend my time listening to the music. So our sub is used for home theater but not for music and we are content with the reproduction provided by our speakers and amp with both analog and digital sources.

When I set up a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s to augment KEF Reference 1s, I ran the usual sweeps using the SMS-1 bass manager and was surprised in-room response of the KEFs was pretty flat to 30 Hz, then dropped sharply. So I low-passed at 45 Hz, and it sounded pretty good. I decided to try 80 Hz, and that transformed the listening experience, big detailed soundstage with no awareness of the subs. Marchand provides balanced passive high-pass at 80 Hz -- Charley Hanson had admonished me not to put active high-pass between an Ayre preamp and amp.

...agree with the positive aspects of DBA, but in need of a proper space to make matters work....an integrated single sub works, but always needs a tweak to seem apropos to the program....

Integration, whether in audio or cultures, always seems an 'iffy issue'...imh...

And the room rules when it comes to augmenting bass, ignored at peril.....

*sigh*  So many details, so little time.... :)

Did the " 'bot gate " ask "Will I dream?"

One of the many beautiful aspects of DBA is more subs beats bigger subs every time. The idea of "proper space" for example. If you understand the concept then you know your four subs don't have to be 12" or even 10" they can be 8" or even 6". They don't have to be boxes either they can be tubes. Hsu Research used to make subs that were only about 8" diameter by 30" long and tuned to 20Hz. "Proper space" then is what you already have behind every sofa, under or behind all kinds of furniture, and at the corner of every room. 

"Integration" with a DBA comes down to throwing them down, setting xo and level, and enjoy. Really, more people should try it to appreciate just how painless easy and effective it is. 

@sameyers1 Interesting advice. Chuck really enjoys taking Erik and many others to task for recommending acoustic treatments, maybe you just haven’t read enough of his posts…yet. You must be aware of what he thinks of Levinson gear…Your post was clear, lucid and not rude to the OP. Your post is also cognizant that maybe not everyone wants a forest of subwoofers and wire strung across the back fourty…

No doubt you understand that classical symphonic bass is not mono. Maybe below 100 ish hz it is..but you probably also understand the rich vibrant and loud harmonics of a scaling standup bass…way above 100 hz. A swarm is but one answer, with some texture , imaging and harmonic downsides. Flat frequency response is an upside. I know a certain Strad owner with great high passed main speakers with integral subs with 11 bands of analog EQ below 120 hz. No swarm desired or needed. High passing the main amp for magic midrange is crucial. I complimented your ability to detect clipping in your great system.

@lemonhaze is correct, RT60 is an excellent tool for working the room. Some of us have achieved near perfect control room RT60 numbers using modern measurement tools, a variety of room treatments , natural furnishings AND listening . We bring in peers to help. Fun.

Finally rock is not a good audiophile sub test, a Fender Precision or Kick drum just don’t go very low, so it’s more about mid bass slam and freeing up the mains and main amp to reproduce those IMD free as @rauliruegas so astutely noted.

:-) enjoy the music

Jim

oh, forgot to mention…i am a bass player of no note, a sometime recording engineer and host of several mastering sessions a year in my reference room. Ciao.

subs don't have to be 12" or even 10" they can be 8" or even 6". They don't have to be boxes either they can be tubes

Yes, indeed. The 3 subs I mentioned in my earlier post were discussed with my mate and his wife where I made suggestions about how they could be integrated into their room. The boxes had a small square footprint and were built to the height suited to their purpose. One was placed next to a bookcase and painted the exact same colour. The second served as a stand for a large pot plant and the third served as a side table replacing the table that had been there before. The whole installation was unobtrusive and took up very little extra space.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

The tube MC referred to allows more options. They can be used horizontally and vertically. As well as placing behind a sofa they can be used in the horizontal corners formed by the wall/ceiling junction.

6.5" drivers are common and they do not need to be specifically designed for 'subwoofer' use. If you regard them as 'acoustic equalisers' they will do something that is difficult to conceptualise if you have never heard a DBA. You get the music robbing nulls filled in and the shouty peaks tamed.

The above is suggested for owners of small rooms always complaining that they just don't have the space. If you do have the space then go to 10" or 12" drivers and enjoy the benefit of muti-subs down to a lower frequency.

The number of subs and their size depends on who wears the trousers in the house. In the above example my mate definitely wears the trousers, he just has to ask his wife which ones he can wear!  😉

Absorption, diffusion and bass trapping will take this to the next level. I have been playing with this for some time and I can tell you that some of my mates who were always introducing new and expensive components, endlessly chasing their tail, have mellowed out and are basking in their glorious sound, being more interested in the music now.

Room treatment + DBA : Audio's best kept secret.

Great, now that DBA has thoroughly been covered here, as it happens in every single discussion about subwoofers on Audiogon, may I ask that the fanboys for it go start a thread all about it and allow this thread to focus on alternatives to buying subwoofers?

That would demonstrate a lot of goodwill, respect and class.

Thank you very much.

Sameyers1 -- I don't recall how to do the neat @thing -- I replaced a similar Proceed amp with Parasound JC 1 monoblocks to drive KEF Reference 107/2s, and found they provided substantially more usable LF extension.  I suspect JC 1s might do the same for your nice Aerial 8bs. 

I encourage everyone who is on the fence about adding a subwoofer or not to read and comment.  I think that either way you'll be able to make more informed buying and configuration choices.

Oh dear, the OP seems bent out of shape. You assume too much. How do you know that the fence sitters have even heard about a DBA let alone know it's purpose? To make an informed choice one needs information, does one not? Helloo ?

You encourage people to comment yet when they do and when it does not fit in with your approach you ask them to desist.

If you wanted only alternatives to subs to be discussed then you should have put that in the post's title and not added that fact in later when members have given the time and effort to inform.

By the way, calling someone a fanboy is contemptuous. I was in no way disrespectful, so clean up your act.

Hi @lemonhaze

So after watching dozens of posts by the DBA fanboys (it’s not derogatory) I ask for the specific discussion of DBA to be taken elsewhere, as many many other thread starters have done in the past, and those with courtesy and goodwill do automatically.

Guess DBA is just too important to expect the fanboys to stop for a moment and think about how they behave.

I now understand.

Erik

Dear @lemonhaze  : " Room treatment + DBA : Audio's best kept secret. "

That's is a rule or only your opinion? because not all MUSIC lovers/audiophiles have the same priorities or targets. The OP is a good example.

R.

Dear friends: Normally I don't re-vised/recheck my posts and now that I did it I made a mistake about " fan " that I wanted to mean the same as erik and writed a different word.

My apologizes to all fans and I will fix my mistake that was and is not my attitude about.

R.

Dear @erik_squires : Several of those DBA fans are really that: fans and you know which one is ( non derogatory meaning. ) when with out ask nothing to the OP just posted it does not matters that the OP is looking for advise of subs to listen MUSIC at one and only one seat position. Obviously they need to learn but a fan normally is not abble to learn is not willing to learn.

https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/myth-busters-subwoofers-in-stereo-systems/

Now, my advise to you for and for any one is to go for Velodyne due that even in the low bass we need to look for quality in that reproduction range and THD figure in that frequency range is quite critical because its tame all the other frequency ranges.

THD in Velodyne is as low as 0.5% where no other affordable true subs can get. I think that only Magico 40K each sub can even that Velodyne critical measurement.

https://www.velodyneacousticssubwoofer.com/en/products/digital-drive-plus/

I understand that in the past you used subwoofer. What made that you let it gone?

R.

@erik_squires  : I re-read your link and is very clear why your sub gone:

" For my own listening levels and choice of music there is almost no reason to add a subwoofer,..."

We MUSIC lovers/audiophiles that are mere " mortals " have not your high technical knowledge levels, tools and certainly not your very specific and unique targets. 

What you did it is not easy to duplicate but been our targets different means your " information " is exclusive for you inside the overall limitations solution.

Your link is a learning one ( at least for me ) and tell us a different way to make " things ". Certainly not for me.

Btw, you said something like: " the subs are a rtone control " and what you did it too.

R.

Dear @erik_squires  : Again re-reading your link we really can think what you stated there:  that your 2-way speakers ( system. ), that cut out at 40hz, and after all what you did it are performing at 20hz.

My take on all those:

the source recorded signal information certainly and normally goes lower than 30hz-40hz and even at 20hz or lower but your speaker can't reproduce what's in the recording that's different of what you achived in your room: two different things.

In the low bass range what you measured in your room is not what is in the recording: your room/system is reproducing something different down there that additional tame the other frequency ranges.

In my view you need subwoofers and not as a " tone control " but as a necessity for any 2-way speakers or even any passive speakers that crossover 150hz taking in count that every time we make that the speakers IMD goes lower we have a true quality performance levels no matters what.

In my case I like to listen what is in the recording, it's my main room/system target and for me can't be in other way.

With all respect I think you are not listening what is in the recording, you can't do it through the link wide explanation.

Maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?

Btw, in the same way that an amplifier or a preamp or a TT is not really a " tone control "  subwoofers certainly are not. Subwoofers are part of a speaker as are the tweeters or mid-range drivers.

In the old times Infinity top of the line speakers came with subwoofers ( non powered stand alone ones. ) and you can't buy it with out those subs towers. Today things changed a little and there are several speaker manufacturers where their top of the line models comes with powered subs integrated in the same whole speaker boxes and other separated as with the vintage Infinity. Certainly not a " tone control " audio item but a true/real necessity to reproduce MUSIC.

R.

@erik_squires  : Yes, I know that no one can be truer to the recording that's a desired room/system target but I think that what you did it had a different target.

Am I wrong?

R.

Dear @erik_squires  : Dead silence. That maybe I just did not understand yet what you did it and that I ask to you 3 times if I'm wrong is not to agressive for your dead silence.  ? ! ? ! ? !

R.

I was always quite satisfied with the sound from my Thiel 2.7s (spec’d down to 35Hz though probably a bit lower in room). After reading the billionth "you need subwoofers to Have Complete Audio Nirvana" post by subwoofer proselytizers I finally gave in to give ’em another try. (Except for the studios which mix my work, I’ve never heard a satisfying audiophile system with a subwoofer, even when the owner of said system was thrilled and thought the blend "seamless.")

I used some JL Audio subwoofers, their wonderful CR-1 crossover, and some DSP via a Dspeaker anti-mode. The CR-1 in particular was a marvel in terms of increasing the ease of dialing in a subwoofer (and doing really simple "with subs/without subs" at the press of a button comparison).

I got a suprisingly close to seamless blend fairly quickly, though spent weeks dialing things in, playing around, different crossover points, positions, one sub, two subs etc.

In the end I simply liked the sound of my speakers without the subwoofers. First of all, I found the sub rarely added musically relevant sound. And yes, yes I know about how subs also are supposed to "enrich the sound at all frequencies, and also bring more dimensionality and better soundstaging" as they are enhancing depth cues in the bass. I just didn’t find that aspect much better either.

I found my speakers just sounded more coherent, more soild and punchy and dense, and with the exact tone I’ve always loved about them. Adding the sub ALWAYS altered the tone slightly, no matter how subtely I dialed them in, and some of the "magic" went away.

I have no doubt some would have heard the combo and preferred the subs. But not to my ears.

I also did a test with my 23 year old son who listens to my system once in a while. I sat him down and had the crossover box on the sofa near him. I simply told him to listen to some music, and push the button on and off. He had no idea what the button did, or what I was testing. The button simply brought the subs in and out of the system - going between the subs crossed over, to running the Thiels full range.

Turned out he thought it sounded better without the subs too.

It’s guaranteed that subwoofer fans will immediately presume "Well, that’s just because you didn’t dial them in perfectly." That certainly could be the case.

It may also be the case that if I heard your system I’d detect the seams in your sub’s integration, even if you think you had them dialed in perfectly. Maybe not. But it’s happened a number of times when I’ve heard subwoofer sets ups the owner claimed to have "done it right."

In any case, I spent weeks dialing them in, and I have good ears (work in pro sound), and frankly that’s all the work I really want to put in to subwoofers. I’m not interested in making subwoofers a second hobby. So ultimately I sold it all.

And aesthetically it was a relief. I hate the added complexity of adding several subwoofers, the extra cables, especially more AC cables, finding places to put those ugly boxes (I hate the look of subwoofers - never seen a single set up enhanced by them).

So, I’ve decided at this point subs aren’t for me. Maybe I’ll try something else some day long in the future.

(Even though subs didn’t tickle my fancy, the JL Audio stuff is fantastic btw, especially that CR-1 crossover! Transparent and a cinch to use!)

Dear @prof : Well, you are owner of Thiel speakers and this per sé says a lot. Till today every time I listened to Thiel speakers normally I like it and performs with high quality level under its model design limitations.

JT designs are all excellent not only in the choosed drivers but its box design/bracing. When we touch the speakers even at 90+dbs SPL we can’t be aware of almost any vibration/resonance.

JT speakers, even his top models, does not permit bi-amp by design. His designs were designed to be " untouchable " by audiophiles/DYs.

Your speakers does not needs subs and that’s why you do not need it, the CS 7.2 reproduce bass frequencies as low as around 23hz to 25hz and with low distortion levels but not all audiophiles own your Thiel speakers and that’s why we almost all needs subwoofers . The OP needs it too.

So your critic about the ones that we use subs are really unfair. Problem with all two way speaker designs and almost all 3 and up ways speaker designs is that normally the woofer crossover frequency is to high at around 350hz-400hz and in 2-way designs at least at 2khz and those facts makes that IMD been really high, so when we liberates the woofers from bass frequencies below 80hz-100hz then we have a true and real improvement that you or any one else can't make a negative critic because those subs are a specific and real necessity to enhance our quality level performance in our room/system of what we like : enjoyment of MUSIC.

That’s all and yes not for you. Btw, as a side advantages when integrated subs the main amplifier(s) are under lower distresss and room/system is benefited with higher headroom where it matters because the main amps are working a lot better in the mid/hi ranges and now we have dedicated powered subs designed expressely for the low bass range: we have all we need or can dream. Don't you think?

R.

Actually Thiel made a number of subwoofers to go with his speakers.  Apparently really excellent and made specially to blend with Thiel speakers, especially.

So it's not like Thiel speakers were "subwoofer proof" or something.  I know that a number of people found great satisfaction pairing their Thiels with subwoofers.  I happen to not be one of them, that's all.

And I was not critiquing people who use subs.   Why would I?  Tons of people have found subwoofers enhanced the enjoyment of their system.   I was only talking about my personal experience and reaction to subwoofer systems I've heard, and in regard to my own attempts to add subwoofers.

I've seen very elaborate subwoofer threads (e.g. on AVSforum and elsewhere) and it amazes me how much effort some have gone in to integrating subwoofers - even building them DIY, measuring room response, lots of experimenting with room correction, treatments etc.   If that's their bliss, more power to them.  I just feel I have only so much time I want to devote to such a project, especially given how much I like the sound of my speakers as they are.

Dear @prof  : I don't know ofr read somewhere that a CS7.2 owner used subs integrated with liberating the Thiel woofers for that low bass range posted.

Yes, I know and heard once thge Thiel sub. My post was specific for your Thiel model but I have to say that my last listening to that model was several years ago and " things " change over time as our " mind " too.

R.

P.S. - I just added distortion measurements to the original blog. Honestly, the numbers seem low, about 2% at 20 Hz???

I’m in the middle of a HT install (with a sub!) so I may not be able to get back to it, but I wanted you all to know I did in fact do more on this but that it probably deserves more exploration before I stand by the distortion numbers.

Best,

Erik