They should charge more for it…

Everything is built to a price point. I never could understand why people have a hard time understanding this concept. It is one of the most basic rules in manufacturing. 
I could never afford $1 million system, but if my passions for music led me down a path where I listened to many such systems. I think I would find myself being confident enough to give a judgment on a certain piece of equipment. 

@daveyf the disconnect is palpable but I've given up extolling the need to be realistic with pricing. Cos many of these veblen priced goods companies end up becoming bankrupt and selling for peanuts

Just a few decades ago a $100K rig was thought obscene, so $320K isn’t shocking.

The gold accents make the aesthetic cheap looking/tacky. Those with gold accents in their room will love it!

Tech Das Zero is near $500K, so yeah GMT is a bargain considering the performance you can expect at this level.

Only those who can- buy whatever. Price isnt a concern.

@gkelly 

+1 Exactly

If I had the means, I am sure my system would cost... well commiserate with my wealth. The key is that it had do deliver the sonic quality. I would have researched and heard all the competition and would be absolutely sure it did. 

I refrain from mocking equipment based on pricing alone, but one has to realize that the guy who spends the big bucks will always be limited by the quality of new and used LPs he must play on it. He’ll need a good imagination to even dream he’s hearing music on a much higher plane than the rest of us, because of the limitations set by the available source material.

I’d be curious to see how many units sell

It doesn't take a great engineer to build a 500K turntable that sounds good. You're great if you can make one for $5,000.

Of course, IMO, these price-no-object products are about making money for the manufacturer.

I read the GMT white paper on the WB website. What they’ve done and the way they did it are impressive. I’m sure it’s superb. Whether it had to cost as much as it costs is a matter for someone else to decide. All manufactured products are about making money.

WB has been around 36 years, so they must know something about pricing...I imagine they don't plan on selling too many of these, but there are many wealthy people for whom this isn't a major purchase...and there is lots of great low and mid cost gear for the rest of us...

Besides the fact that I've stopped paying attention to the absolute sounds products of the year selections, I think most of these expensive turntables look like Frankenstein monstrosities.

Besides the fact that I've stopped paying attention to the Absolute Sounds products of the year selections, I think most of these expensive turntables look like Frankenstein monstrosities.

it is much harder to build something that performs well that is of a simple and elegant design, than something where you need to have all kinds of parts rotating and flying around to make it work the way you intend it to.

It's a personal reflection, of course, as are all my comments. :-)

Entering the luxury market is much about choosing a business model and/or battle for status, they may have indeed priced it too low if status important to purchaser. As for value and performance, that's for the actual purchaser to determine.

bimmerlover

I think most of these expensive turntables look like Frankenstein monstrosities.

I couldn’t agree more. Many of them are just fugly.

... it is much harder to build something that performs well that is of a simple and elegant design ...

Exactly!

"Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)

I'll take two.

Price has become THE main feature, at the top-end of market. I mean, it’s been that way for a while - just more so now. Just make sure your product uses enough visible "material" to "justify" its price level - minimalist philosophy like Rega’s doesn’t fly in this market segment!!

When a well-heeled customer's wishlist starts with "I want the BEST", and it's a subjective pursuit, this is the inevitable result (women, wine too).

There is the concept of diminishing returns. Improvement at the high end becomes exponentially more expensive. To most mere mortals, the ability to discern improvement lays far below the mega dollar prices that much of the uber high end pieces proport to offer. 

Is a $250K turntable 10 times as good as a 25K table? Not by a long shot (IMHO) I don't play in that league so a moot point. I guess if you have Bezos or Musk money, go for all the gusto or bragging rights.

They are absolutely correct. If you think about it, anyone who could afford a $300k turntable can easily afford a $500k turntable. So maybe the manufacturer should have asked $500k for it. Why not? It would not make any less sense. If his audience is the billionaire class, we are talking about pennies for them. Money has become so highly concentrated that it’s hard to wrap your head around the meaning of wealthy anymore. There are around 800 billionaires in America alone. These products are not intended for regular working folks. Ponder this for a second: 1 billion is 1000 millions. 

I think Einstein was referring to a hypothesis, not to audio gear. A hypothesis should be as simple as possible to explain the data, but not simpler.

The design concept of the GMT is reminiscent of an older very high end turntable that was made in the Pacific Northwest and now may be out of production.  (I can see it in my mind's eye, but I cannot recall the name.) A very powerful 3-phase AC synchronous motor is driven by three separate and discrete amplifiers, one amp per phase and controlled by precise upstream circuitry to maintain stable speed without the need for a separate servo mechanism. The bling that you guys object to is not appealing to me, either, but the idea and its execution appear to be first rate. I like that part.

There is the concept of diminishing returns.

I don't buy into diminishing returns. That assumes solid objective evaluation criteria, and also paints the picture of a nice clean horizontal asymptote where performance NEVER decreases as price increases infinitely to the right. Reality is a LOT more random than that.

@gkelly No disrespect but I don't think a $300k turntable is using a manufacturing formula for that price. The parts are the parts. Luxury items basically pull a price out of thin air as far as I can tell.

You need to really buy 3 of them just incase one breaks you have a back up

The Ultra high end seems to exist to make some of the other overpriced items look like a steal.

one very obvious justification to charging more for the Wilson Benesch GMT One turntable is that the development was somewhat funded by UK Government. if WB had to amortize all that funding into the development expense the price would have been higher considering the projected volume.

surely Mr. Fremer/Absolute Sound were well aware of that.

scroll down a little on this link for details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Benesch

we are not speaking about value here, that is purely a personal question. just the way a product is priced to allow development to proceed and for a reasonable return on the cost/risk.

Diminishing returns is a marketing/sales pitch created by the audio industry to keep budget conscious Audiophiles content and willing to buy the entry level gear. Many still don't understand you judge a complete system over one individual component. Yes, you can evaluate a single component but it has to be placed with similar performing gear to accurately judge it. If a component can scale up in a higher level system makes it a good value purchase until it becomes the weak link. Building a balanced system without a weak link is the key to this hobby not debating whether a $250k turntable is 10x better than a $25k table which makes for a useless formula. The system where the $250k deck is implemented in could be an infinite # superior to the system with the $25k table. 

Well if The Absolute Sound says its a wonderful turntable we all should get one! ....O boy! The Obsolete Sound as i like to call it is not very neutral when it comes to these reviews, in fact they are quite biased toward the advertisers, and any maker they deem viable. So get out and listen! Don't just read about it! 

Matt M

Fortunately, it has a remote control so you can settle comfortably back in your chair during the 20 seconds spin-up time, before commanding the stylus to drop.

As I read it, this is the result of a series of university research projects mainly funded by Government R & D grants, and centered on the foremost specialty steel city of yore, Sheffield. Competitors not switched into this environment may well feel that they are at a disadvantage, pricewise. 

It could be a plot to make me think $50-k for an Aussie Dohmann table is exceptional value for money

If you are into high end audio the "law of diminishing returns" is not in the equation. Getting closer to the music mid-fi is creeping ever closer to the goal of better sounding music with greater investments of time and money. There reward function is not linear at all. 

The law of dminishing return applies to the frugal mid-fi music person. 

dayglow

Diminishing returns is a marketing/sales pitch created by the audio industry to keep budget conscious Audiophiles content ...

That is simply not true. The law of diminishing returns is a well known economic principle, also known as the law of diminishing marginal returns.

I do agree with @ghdprentice that it's really not part of the equation for those into high end audio. We're already well into that curve because "reward function is not linear at all."

Can we imagine the US Government funding any kind of consumer audio product development?  What I find interesting about this happening in the UK is the fact that their government is subsidizing product development for something only elites can afford.  They have been dumbing down the proms and other cultural programs that are deemed insuffiently popular, yet they fund this

Thx cleeds for taking interest in my post. I will never comment on political, economic, social or religious(etc). theories on an Audio site. It all started with Stereo Review and Audio magazine that all amplifiers that measure the same sound the same. Basically the only difference is parts quality and cosmetics in higher priced amps which unfortunately many still believe. Then in the 1980’s (AHC) Tony Cordesman claimed Adcom a real "Giant Killer" As a naive 19 year old I fell victim with a 545 stack that had a treble similar to peanut brittle, within 6 months traded that junk in for an Amber Series 70 and FF 17 preamp kept the tuner. Currently we have a plethora of budget pushing Youtubers claiming true HEA sound from palm sized amps, rebadged Chi-Fi and DIY speaker kits. 

@mahler123 

I don’t think Wilson-Benesche got government funding for development of the extremely expensive turntable. It helped them get their business off the ground when they were starting out with more modest products. 

@ghdprentice 

Diminishing returns can’t possibly apply in this context, anyway.

Sound quality is by definition qualitative not quantitative. It is meaningless to say that one product sounds twice as good as another or for that matter any numerical factor of goodness, whatever that is, better. 

The Wilson Benesche costs ten times more than say a Klimax LP12 or whatever. But no one can authoritatively say it is or isn’t ten times better sounding. 

Subsidies exist in many forms, both direct and indirect. Tax policies, tariffs, enterprise zones to name a few. 

This thread is fascinating to read.  I love reading the diversity of opinion expressed here.  Focusing on turntables and cartridges for me and those of us who are passionate enough to hang around here is an absolute gas.  We collectively are somewhat similar to flat earthers I suppose.  I love that there are companies that would devote the time and resources to develop a product like the Wilson Benesche.  I love that Panasonic would continue to devote the time and resources to develop ever more sophisticated turntables in the other direction.  As other things seem to move toward maximum entropy, thank God for this little enterprise. You all give me hope for the future. 

In my OP, I am not implying that companies like WB should not devote time and resources ( even if they have to be somewhat publicly funded) to better and better products. 

Instead, I am bemused by the fact that the author of the piece in the Absolute Sound would go so far as to say that a $300K turntable could be in fact..’underpriced’! Implying that the value proposition of this product is in fact higher than what is being asked for it. While value is a subjective term, does he really believe that there is value to be had in a turntable that is priced in the $300-500K category? Remembering that a Ferrari or two ( i don’t really like to use automobiles as an example here, but they are somewhat obvious) can be had for similar money...and how many other far more complex products that one could name?

Comparing apples to oranges is a very simplistic analogy. In transportation is a new Ferrari a better value proposition than a new Cirrus SR20?

TAS also said a Rega turntable/arm/cartridge combo was a turntable of the year.  It's priced under $20k.

Based on the description provided by TAS, I celebrate the WB TT.  It sounds like a really good design.  And if it's in line with other WB products it will be solidly built and good looking.  It's expensive, but so are a lot of things these days.

I actual prefer the relative simplicity of the Rega, but I'm glad there is a WB.

@dayglow  When a product is priced at such a level that it brings into focus a number of other items that are now available at the same price level, then it absolutely does invite comparison. So, while a turntable is not a super car, if it is priced at the level of a product that is significantly more complex to design, significantly more advanced in its production level/complexity and also widely sought after; then yes, it does invite comparison to said product. YMMV.

@onhwy61 The fact that the WB turntable is expensive, is NOT what is being discussed here. Instead, the point that the reviewer for the Absolute Sound mini review stated...that said turntable is in fact "under priced"! Leading to the question, do folks believe what he states??

The article states that a competitor to WB believes they should charge more for  the product.  He is simply repeating what an industry insider has stated.  What evidence to you present to doubt him?

 @onhwy61 if the competitor believes that the WB is under priced, maybe they should be buying them all up...and re-selling them at a handsome profit! Somehow, i doubt that will be happening....;0)

 I’m not saying the reviewer made up the statement ( although this would NOT be the first time something like that has happened), but that the statement itself given the context ( and the price asked) is on the face of it, disingenuous. YMMV.

I wonder if this kind of product and pricing is more a reflection of the extreme concentrations of wealth we have seen in so many countries in the past decades, creating a greatly expanded market for such pricing, rather than substantive advances in the technology of playing records.  

@newton_john 

I don’t think Wilson-Benesche (sic) got government funding for development of the extremely expensive turntable. It helped them get their business off the ground when they were starting out with more modest products

Not according to Wilson Benesch's website, which I quote below.  My first job was as a Research Scientist with a steel corporation in Sheffield.  Many governments encourage industries through R & D programs, and Britain has done extremely well in the past from high-end audio products from companies like Quad and SME.  Some lines have sold over 100,000 worldwide.

Wilson Benesch was founded upon an idea that it was possible to improve the existing State-of-the-Art within high end audio product design that existed in that time. A business plan was formed that put pure research, genuine engineering and materials science at the heart of a collaborative design process. This collaborative approach to design was literally forged by the first grant application that was written prior to the name Wilson Benesch even being conceived. That grant application set out a plan to develop a new turntable and tonearm based around carbon fibre composite materials technology that would represent genuine innovation within the high end audio industry, elevating performance and setting a new State-of-the-Art. This materials technology did not exist within any home consumer product designs of the time and was the preserve of F1 and aerospace industries at the time. So in order to innovate our grant application identified the need to collaborate with specialists both within the University sectors and industry of the time. The grant application was successful, the first carbon fibre – nomex composite structures ever seen within high end audio design were conceived and thanks in no small part to engineers who worked on Rolls Royce RB-211 carbon fan blades and a number of other highly specialised consultants, the Wilson Benesch Turntable and A.C.T. One Tonearm were launched in 1990. These products went on to win countless awards globally, but notably in Japan and Germany which were leading high end audio industries of the time where exceptional quality and performance was demanded

Funnily, I have never liked anything audiophilic that is made from carbon fiber, except some Yamamoto and Oyaide headshells I bought in Tokyo.  CF tonearms (e.g., the one made by WB) and speakers to my ears have a dull-ish coloration that I find anti-musical. So that biases me against loving the WB GMT in advance, based purely on the materials science behind it, but of course I could be very wrong and would love to hear it in an environment with which I was at least vaguely familiar.

My buddy bought one at a foreign show and loves it with his Wilson speakers. He is in industry so I am sure he got a great deal on a show demo. Looks impressive. I bet it sounds sensational. If your into this hobbie I’m sure it makes sense and delivers the goods.

With all due respect, the testimony of your buddy delivered third person and without any backup information (like does your buddy have a conflict of interest, what else in the system besides Wilson speakers, which Wilson speakers, what TT did the GMT replace or what other TTs were used as comparators, etc) is not of great value. If you can get answers to some of the foregoing questions, it would be helpful, I guess.

I haven't heard it, I'm not sure I intend to stop off at a room it will be in when at an audio show.

WB, Linn, Pink Triangle, Naim when encountered at an Audio Event have not been an experience that has been able to capture my attention, even when in a past guise as an individual with a audio interest I was using a Linn Deck.

WB has an existence that had been assisted with being awarded Grant Monies. 

 Noteworthy innovations resulting directly from grant funded research:

In 1989, Wilson Benesch was awarded its first grant. The application focused on plans to develop a new turntable that would use new materials technology to advance performance. £25,000 was awarded to Wilson Benesch by the Department for Trade and Industry (DTi) under the SMART Award scheme designed to fund innovation. The direct outcome of the SMART Award funding was the company's first two products, the Wilson Benesch Turntable and the A.C.T. One Tonearm. The Wilson Benesch Turntable featured an advanced composite sub-chassis, constructed from a Nomex core with a carbon fibre skin. The A.C.T. One Tonearm was constructed from carbon fibre composite in a hyperbolic tube.

In 1997, Wilson Benesch was awarded a second DTi Grant under the SMART Award scheme. Wilson Benesch was awarded £250,000 for an application that outlined a proposal to develop another dynamic drive unit based around materials technology previously not used in drive unit design. The project was code named 'The Bishop Project' by Wilson Benesch. The outcome was the company's Tactic Multirole Drive Unit. The drive unit features a Neodymium Rare Earth Magnet and an Isotactic Polypropylene cone that was developed through collaborative research with the University of Leeds and Professor Ian Ward.^[7] The first product which used this drive technology was the Bishop loudspeaker in 1999. The drive technology was also subsequently used in the company's Odyssey Range and the Square Series.

In 2003, Wilson Benesch was awarded its third DTi Grant under the SMART Award scheme. Wilson Benesch was awarded £186,000 for an application that outlined the development of a patentable drive unit design, capable of reproducing low frequency sound. The outcome was the company's Torus Infrasonic Generator. Wilson Benesch patented the design, electing to name it according to the designs unique motor design which has no spider to reset the drive unit cone to its resting position, instead the design introduced a new approach that used a push-pull drive design, with the resting position of the cone being determined by two electromagnets.

In 2008, Wilson Benesch won its fourth DTi Grant under the SMART Award scheme. Wilson Benesch was awarded £146,000 for an application that outlined the development of a patentable analogue replay system. The company entitled the research and development project, the Mondrian Project,^[10] and have published a number of project reports, but has announced no outcomes or products directly from the research project to date.

2009 SMART grant funding of £156,000 to develop nested tube cable. The design is a patented design.

Horizon 2020 EU grant 2017 −2021 SSUCHY brought together 17 European partners. The project was accomplished after being extended six months beyond the original 48 months, from September 2017 to August 2021, with a total budget of €7 411 150, including €4 457 195 of BBI JU contribution. Wilson Benesch commercialised its development outcomes in a new generation of loudspeakers called Fibonacci Series which superseded the Geometry Series Wilson Benesch secured £320,000 grant funding to develop the world's first bio composite monocoque

GMT Consortium. IUK Funding At the close of 2020, Wilson Benesch brought together a consortium that successfully won £327,000 of Innovate UK funding. The consortium was composed of Sheffield Hallam University – Dr F. Al-Naemi, Dr J. Travis and Professor G. Cockerham. These scientists have enabled the most nuanced and sophisticated modelling to be accomplished using state of the art 3D software and have been critical to the success of the project. Secondly, the highly innovative CAAS Audio, which is also based in South Yorkshire and is driven by the proven world-class expertise of Dr C. Broomfield and N. Broomfield. Since winning this essential funding, the consortium has pioneered a completely new motor and dedicated poly-phase motor power supply system. The Omega Drive and Alpha Power Supply is a patented applied for design. The GMT was launched in May 2022 and first production will be available in Q1 of the companies 35th Anniversary year. Wilson Benesch has only ever produced 3 turntable systems. All three designs have adopted all of the full system approach of turntable, tone arm cartridge, support furniture and first stage amplification being conceived as a whole as opposed to an assemblage of discrete designs being assembled together to create the whole.

I found one price only for the Tesselate TI  Cartridge @ $21K - Unknown Cantilever Material  

A TT at that $ level would obviously demand commensurate equipment beyond it and a space specific for it all.... Not to mention the LP's worth playing on it.

Anyone considering such lives in a well-heeled 'hood, likely gated.  A high-rise domicile would be another site for such.

Personally, I'd need a considerable Lotto win, but would still prefer something more down to my version of reality...which would entail my preferences, which would strike many as just strange anyway....

Takes a lot of souls to fill a freeway.... ;) 

The competition is likely threatened by how good it is compared to their offering.

The article states that a competitor to WB believes they should charge more for  the product. 

@pindac

Thanks for that. Fascinating story. WB are clearly a cut above many other manufacturers. I’ll pay more attention to them in future. 

A whole system approach rather than attacking one component at a time like say Linn sounds an ambitious project. I hope they can pull it off. If only to encourage the others.