The Low Volume Loudness Dilemma

       There are still options available, far as dealing with the Fletcher-Munson Curve, in the modern Audio market.

                                       Pick your poison.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/should-you-use-fletcher-munson-loudness-compensation.29543/

               Who makes the rules in your listening room any way?

Why not wait until you get those $90,000 Audio Research amps that you posted in your last thread and see if that fixes the problem?

Read the post, it was a post about his positive listening experience of these AR amplifiers. 

I did read the post!

"Are they worth the ask? I have a pair on order. Definitely outside my budget but I suspect that long after the price is forgotten the quality and sonic purity will continue to reward me. "

Bravo! ARC! You have outdone yourselves with this one.

Compression and parametric eq/DSP is your friend. Forget about “purists”. Do whatever it takes to address whatever problem is at hand.  That’s what technology is for.   One must merely learn how to apply it properly case by case. 

Ironic that every system sounds different,  even with “purists”

If your system doesn't sound good at low volume, you have work to do.  High volume is a patch to make mediocre system sound better.  Maybe an equalizer can be an option if you like the sound. Wouldn't be for me.

1. I tend to think the lesser 10-band digital GEQ will work better than 31-band analog GEQ like DBX 2231. Paul McCartney said that EQ in digital domain outperforms as well;

2. One critical aspect to consider is how one constructs the Equalized Loudness Contour (ELC), or Fletcher-Munson (F-M) curves, at different average listening levels, such as 40, 60, or 80 dB.  When applying EQ, it's important to normalize the dB adjustments (DdB in the chart), particularly to avoid distortion in frequencies that are heavily adjusted (e.g., bass). Without proper normalization, EQ adjustments can create imbalances, distorting the original sound signature by overemphasizing or underemphasizing certain frequency ranges.

+1 @yogiboy 

No doubt digital eq (dsp) provides ultimate flexibility. Traditional analog is limited. Understanding Fletcher Munson first is the key. Also room acoustics bass mode frequencies in particular. Use a sound meter app and white noise to detect those.

They’re called “cans” or “headphones.”

I’m an unabashed loud listener, so this desire seems very foreign to me haha. But yes, as has already been speculated, increasingly exotic gear is not the solution - some from of EQ or a good "loudness" mode is probably the way to go.

You’ve hit on an interesting audiophile trope / anti-patten: "this system is so good (i.e. expensive) that you get full detail and dynamics even at low volumes!". I would posit that such a system (or component) is specifically optimized for low level listening, and would in fact sound quite unbalanced (too much bass and/or treble) when pushed into higher volumes. I am sure MY system sounds quite dull to low volume listeners!

I think you nailed it. Schiit makes a nice line of modern Eqs. I have the mini one on my headphone rig. It is just right.

Another approach is to use high sensitivity loudspeakers, which excel at playing music at low spl.

Are there any preamps made today that offer a loudness function?  That would be your best bet. 

Have a demo of Aries Cerat Preamp and DAC at Axpona next year. This might work for you.

Get a preamp with a loudness feature like Accuphase, they call it “compensator.” I have one and it works great.

I just hit the comp on my accuphase and it’s great and lower volumes. Full, luscious and tasty. 

I think old Yamaha integrated amps had an adjustable loudness control.

The main reason tone controls were considered bad, IMHO was they were often poorly implemented compared to the rest of the unit.  Some had excellent tone and loudness circuits while others simply did not.  The otherwise excellent Parasound P7 was a great example of a great preamp with really veiling tone controls.

The Denon and I believe Yamaha units which would allow you to dial in the appropriate levels of loudness were, also IMHO the best ideas for this I've ever seen.  Also important to note that the F-M curves are averages.  Your ears may or may not follow these curves that well, so feel free to season away as you enjoy most.

EQ units are OK for the task except that they are fixed. Well implemented loudness function tapers off as the volume increases.

I like high sensitivity speakers with low watt tube amps for low-level or near field listening. Omega's Alnico speakers are excellent for this. 

The DSP feature on my streamer/DAC has EQ. Seems to work fine.  Also my 40 year old MAC C33 preamp has a variable Fletcher Munson knob and a 5 band equalizer.  I used this to dial~in bass to my Klipsch Belles for 20 years until I bought my first sub.

Mission claims it book self speaker is good for low volume listening

You just described what I love the most about the Variable Loudness knob on Yamaha gear.

Bryston electronics aren't the fullest sounding out there and the room is very large.

A couple of high quality subs would probably help, but the fundamental problem is the size of the room.

Sometimes people with very large rooms play their systems too loud in an attempt to move enough air to achieve room filling sound.

That makes the perception of thinness when they play at low levels even worse.

Near field listening is wonderful at low volume.

The loudness control on my Luxman 509z worked very well for this problem. 

FWIW - Most of my listening is at night when the wife is asleep, so volume is always low to moderate- and I've realized that every power cord enhancement has made low volume resolution noticeably better. My power cords are all Shunyata Delta or Venom V10 NR.

@lanx0003 thank for the F-M curve chart! Just when I thought I knew enough, you learn something new. I have 6 different set ups in 6 different rooms of two houses, tube amps, SS amps, high sensitivity Klipsch, Focal, Vienna Acoustics and vintage Infinity speakers. I have a Klark Teknik DN 360 in 5 of the rigs. I too often listen at low volumes, late at night while reading and find a little eq boost here and there brings back the missing music @yesiam_a_pirate is searching. As volume levels rise, I turn the db boost down from +6db to +5, +4 and eventually off at full volume, which for me is only 70-75 db. 
 

i’ve often thought of experimenting with a tube based parametric eq, but haven’t invested the time to learn how to use one yet. I’ve tried software in the digital domain for eq and room correction but always revert to sliding bars and knobs on the Klark Teknik.  
 

If you like what you hear, then it sounds good.

Not sure what is considered low volume. I do most my listening at or under 70 db and it sounds excellent to me. Of course, the house of stereo is a big factor. Invest in room and room acoustics first, 350k system later.

My subwoofer, a Martin Logan 1100x, has a movie mode that boosts bass so I enable that on my ipad and my low level listening is superb.  

@trivema You are welcome. I have tried the RC / PEQ with Wiim Pro Plus several times in different listening space at home for three systems and utimately revert back to GEQ as well. Maybe to do with microphone?

@baylinor Not sure what is considered low volume.

YMMV but, for me when listening music at night, I turn the volume down to 45-50dB range which is really a tester for bass. My background (ambience) noise with AC on/off is around 30-35dB.  I need to boost which frequency (60-80hz) up by +8 / +9 dB and normalize them to bring back the articulation and balance of the low-end notes.

I own 3 Schiit EQs and all of them work brilliantly. I use a Loki in my video rig, and another for a headphone EQ running into a Schiit Vali 3 tube amp. The third is a Loki Max remote EQ in my main hifi pile...this thing is brilliant. 4 Presets, amazingly well designed EQ curves in a remote controllable ultra quiet hip design. No noise, built like no other EQ I've ever come across in decades of audio geekdom and professional musician work. Will utterly cure Fletcher Munson issues with zero negative impact on your groovy ARC amps...or any other amp. I don't use DSP anywhere as I'm too much of a snob.

bdp has it right.  Less sensitive speakers need a little more volume to reach their potential.  Wilsons Magnepans etc.

@bdp24 speaks the truth about efficiency

Speakers are calibrated at 1 watt @ 1 meter at the factory. Marketing materials are printed and distributed using this standard spec. So far, so good.

A "medium efficiency" speaker, say 85db (@ 1 watt) produces, duh, 85 decibels at 1 watt. When producing 75 db, this drops to 1/10 watt. Things are quite different inside that speaker box at those minuscule power levels. And, the sound will altered considerably.

Case in point:

We were a dealer with a wide range of speakers of various sizes and efficiencies. I decided to do a low listening level listening test with a (very) high efficiency speaker vs a medium efficiency (highly regarded) model. Somewhere north of 10 db difference in their efficiencies.

First, the medium efficiency: With volume starting at zero and slowly working our way up to just above the threshold of hearing, the sound was pretty much as we expected. Nicely rendered. But, a strong departure from its full volume levels.

Then, the (very) high efficiency speaker: Volume starting at zero, as before. Then slowly raising the volume to the same "just above the threshold of hearing" level. The music was dynamic, with some subtle characteristics of a live performance. Bandwidth was greatly improved. Yes, real bass. And, high end extension. Micro-dynamics, absent in the other example, were audible and engaging. This was simply a comparison that was no comparison.

This is not a "pitch" for high efficiency speakers, but merely a statement that low energy applied to a high efficiency driver can move things around in a more energetic (and musically satisfying) way.  At low listening levels, we're experiencing the "perfect storm" of flaws in human hearing PLUS mechanical/electrical limitations of the speaker.  

As far as enhancement devices (EQs, loudness contours, etc) are concerned, it would be nice if they could be placed in a tape or accessory loop so they can be switch in/out of the signal path at normal listening levels.

"As far as enhancement devices (EQs, loudness contours, etc) are concerned, it would be nice if they could be placed in a tape or accessory loop so they can be switch in/out of the signal path at normal listening levels."

Yes, this. The ARC SP3 preamp had a tone defeat button. Along with the usual treble and bass controls, it had a knob for something they called "Contour", aka loudness. I rarely used them but when I did I was quite happy to have them.

I'm all for the 'straight wire with gain' philosophy but in the real world, a bit of help is not a bad thing IMHO.

Happy listening.

I have the the newish Luxman L-507z. It has Bass and Treble controls and yes a Loudness button. It also has a line straight button that bypasses everything and is pure from the amp. I listen at 70db at nite on my cornwall IVs. Almost sounds too loud sometimes late at nite. But they sound is deep and rich withe great upper extension. Just a normal family room with no treatment. I rarely use any tone controls at all

My experience has been how well a system performs at low volume is hard to pin exactly to the source. However mine has gotten better and better at lower and lower volumes the better my system has gotten and now I happily enjoy 65 - 70 db. At this volume I get the fully nuanced and dynamic sound I crave. When playing a symphony I adjust it to where the sounds just barely audible coming from the sound floor are that, and crescendos are at the upper limit of undistorted hearing. But symphonies have the highest dynamic range.

From your descriptions of what you value in sound quality suggests that an equalizer is your solution. You want it to sound loud when it is not. If I were you, I would get the best quality equalizer you can. Folks that love loud music tend to appreciate the dynamics and force and not so much the nuanced detail… so the equalizer will improve what you love and not effect what you don’t.

The problem with loudness contour functions in most implementations is that they fail to calibrate to a reference level.  Most overcompensate, and become boom generators.  In this respect, Yamaha’s variable loudness is superior to others.  The best implementation is YPAO Volume, a feature of MusicCast, which takes a microphone snapshot of your room and speaker together, and sets the reference level, EQ, and loudness compensation in one holistic swoop.  Next best is a preamp with a traditional loudness button used with an amplifier equipped with variable input gain. You lower the gain so that the volume setting where compensation tapers off matches the loudness your ear tells you you no longer need it…the “reference level”.  The last best way is with an equalizer.  I use a Schiit Loki+ in the EPL of my Conrad Johnson PF-R linestage, and it helps a lot.

I purchased the Schiit Lokius and set it up in my preamp tape loop.  With my preamp remote I select tape to listen to the EQd sound.

I would love to have a Schiit Loki Max but am ok with one EQd setting.  If you want to store additional EQs or make adjustments on the fly it's definitely the way to go.

I purchased a Schitt Lokius as well and was using the balanced inputs/outputs. I tried it in the system on a few separate occasions- switching back/forth with and without it in the signal chain. Unfortunately, it had to go. It flattened out and sucked some soundstage out. I removed it and soundstage and life was restored. It's wasn't a big difference but was enough to make me take it out. I've been eyeballing the Loki Max, but others here have said there are much better EQ's out there. Any feedback on your Loki Max experience (before/after) would be appreciated.

I haven’t actually heard it but the Decware ZRock3 reads like it’s made for what you are describing.

https://www.decwareproducts.com/zrock3

Too bad Dirac doesn't do multiple sweeps at varying volume levels.

Thanks @danager. That's pretty nifty. I just sent them an email to see if they can make one with XLR instead of RCA.

+1 Accuphase loundness (compensation) switch for low volume. Great for background listening.

I'd figure out a way to have the eq in the chain when you wanted it but take it out when you're listening at normal volume.  Maybe a tape loop?  It's been a long time since I did something like that.

@mapman & @ all y'all....

Ironic that every system sounds different,  even with “purists”

 I can't agree....even at gunpoint.

As one who has applied octave (later, parametric) eq's to compensate/correct 'for the room' since the late '70s' (tweaking for taste, of course), the lack of tone controls on any piece of 'primary equipment' has not been of of an issue.
It all began with a Audio Control C-101 oct eq with an RTA and the calibrated mic and the onboard pink noise generator....

Currently:

- 2 Behringer 8024 eq with DSP; 31 oct each + parametric eq's if desired.  One runs part of the 'show', the other 'just listens' with it's RTA and feeds to the 2nd 'puter with it's 'sndpeak' program that's running RTA, Lissajous, and the 'normal' db v. fq display in RT.

- The curve from the soundcard that I run 'flat', since it's early in the line...

- a DBX eq that I haven't bothered with.....

- the active Behr X-over that I've exploring to send What to Where....and I've got lots of where's to fart about with....

I can only and desire only to amuse myself....

You?

Come Here.

The beer is up to You.  Any 'adult enhancements' ditto....surprise me.

'Til then, bite me.

(...no, I'm not in a good mood...)