The Low Volume Loudness Dilemma

Why not get Accuphase voicing EQ? At low, low $18K it probably has better quality than dbx.

@limomangus - it may as well fix it if room is not properly treated. May add some other problems, but perhaps OP music sounds good now. With some older material I rather use EQ and lose a bit of transparency than not enjoy it at all.

I think for that amount i'd build detached shed and treated it with proper acoustic materials like a recording studio.

Wait you have a $350,000 system and bought a DVX 2231 equalizer that cost a couple of hundred bucks and it cured the volume problem....really.I find it fascinating that you would buy one that cheap...So your system is now worth $350,200 buck....come on man.

I built speakers with multiple drivers and that makes a big difference. Each speaker does less work and you put more music in the air. Some people cry comb filtering but I’ve yet to hear it if it’s there it’s so small you can barely hear it or you can’t hear it would be the case. Not sure what brands do multiple drivers like I do. I do usually for tweeters and four midranges one large woofer and the same size subwoofer all on the same unit. It puts a lot of sound in the air and it’s not distorted sound it’s really beautiful. So far I’ve sold eight sets  This year and everybody’s all very satisfied. It does exactly what you’re asking for it puts a lot of music in the air at low levels. DM if you want to talk more 

Class A Accuphase  and Harbeths are a great low volume combo.  It blows away my McIntosh tube gear with high-end Focals for 70db listening with fullness and ooomph.   And no fatigue.  In the 90+ eb range the Mac Focal sounded good, but it sounded so thin at anything below 85 Db.  Almost harsh. 

My Magnepan's are played at quite low volumes about half the time when listening as my wife is nurse and works nights, so I have to keep it quite low when she is sleeping.  I also have two REL subs and I am truly amazed at the clarity of the Maggies and low bass response of the RELs when listening at very low volume.  I have had other people comment on exactly the same when hearing my system.  I've never had a system do this before. 

@mapman 

My listening experiences tell me that a higher sensitivity speaker (especially horn loaded or OB) does respond better than a typical ported box speaker system even driven by a robust powerful amplifier. 

A given ported box speaker does respond to better amplification but never quite gets there.  

Something about horns and OBs with their near 100db sensitivity that makes them have dynamic punch and effortlessness.    

@yesiam_a_pirate 

It doesn't appear you have a subwoofer in your system.  I have a pair HSU Research TN 1225 with his Model 500A amp.  This system allows me to have easy access to the volume for the subs since the amp is with the rest of my gear.  That has worked well over the years for me to turn up the sub when I am at low volumes.  That approach would be the simplest and not affect your overall sound signature.  I cut my audiophile teeth with a B&K preamp about 20 years ago.  They put loudness on their preamps and it was nice to have that option for thin recordings and low volumes.  This is not very common and unlikely to be the deciding factor for how you choose a preamp.  

I am of the opinion that speaker efficiency need not matter as long as the amp is up to the task of driving the speakers to maximum performance. Granted that is an easier job for many amps with speakers that present an easy load to drive (Fritz speakers are an example of easy to drive yet not particularly efficient) as opposed to being more efficient, which is different. More efficient just means louder overall with fewer watts which is a non issue for low volume listening.

+1 @bruce19

Would love to see more standard filter settings like those to deal with loudness delivered with Roon. Anything to make the tremendous power of Roon DSP easier for the masses to apply properly.

Also with Roon for lower volumes I find turning on headroom management to be a useful option.

Frequency loudness sensitivity aside, there are differences in the abilities of different systems to sound rich and full at low volume.  

The combination of robust amplification and higher than usual speaker efficiency gets the job done.  Look for amps that have more power as the impedance is reduced- e.g. amps that double down.  

At one extreme HE and Horn Speakers tend to do the best job at producing bass at low volume levels, something like JBL or Klipsch Heritage, Volti Audio etc.  Larger more sensitive woofers e.g. 12 to 15 inch / 90+ db efficiency for example. 

I had a really modest system with PSB tower speakers and a NAD 150 watt amp and the woofers seemed to be connected mechanically to the amp- every punch and note was felt despite very low listening levels.  

It can be done. 

For you Roonies out there right now Roon’s PEQ feature can be used to build an EQ curve based on the Fletcher Munson curve (see Wikipedia) for a specific end point volume level. I used a free app on my phone (Sound Tools) to determine I wanted one for a 60 db volume level. I build an approximation of the curve using Roon’s PEQ features and WOW. It sounded great. I have put in a feature request to the folks at Roon for them to consider offering this in a bit more user friendly fashion where you just enter you desired listening room sound level and it automatically generates the appropriate curve, then you save it as an EQ for use as desired. Hope they do it.

PS- Another solution for anyone with a RME ADI2 dac, there is a built in loudness function.

@wolf_garcia 

The third is a Loki Max remote EQ in my main hifi pile...this thing is brilliant.

I had a Loki Max on order when you wrote this; got it two days ago and have been fiddling with it. I agree completely with your assessment! My initial setup is to use the presets to approximate different equal loudness Fletcher-Munson curves.

The loudest I typically listen is about 80 dB SPL, but I do a lot more listening in the 65-70 dB range. With the Loki Max, I now can dial in the appropriate F-M curve to have a richer, more detailed soundstage at lower volumes. 

I hadn't really thought about it before, but F-M curves lead to the logical conclusion that, if your system is truly linear at all listening volumes, you can optimize the sound for only one listening level. The others really need to be corrected using EQ based on the science of equal loudness perception.

@seb_audio 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiqVYmMIEco

I’m not an acoustician, but I’ve learned a few things about ensuring that low volume music sounds good in my office system (that’s how I listen 10-12 hrs/day):

1 - Select individual components that others describe as sounding good at low volumes, especially when it comes to speakers and amps

2 - Use a well set-up subwoofer. Its effect is nearly subliminal at low volumes, but it’s there, and it helps

3 - Control external/extraneous, steady state sound in the enviornment to the greatest degree possible.

My current system sounds great at low volumes. I hope it sounds even better when my Music First Audio TVC/preamp unit arrives and I get it fully burned in. I’ve been interested in exploring the sound of well-made transformers for a long time, and this will be my chance. If the reviews and user comments hold true, I might get even clearer, more pure sound (good sound) at low volumes than I have now.

I have dual 18’s in my system on a separate amp / x-over . I just crank the subs more at low volume = done ✅ 

eq works as well , you’re on the right path 

Why limit to either loud or low levels listening? DSP if digital or even simple analog eq otherwise solves the problem. You can have it all! Do one’s self a favor in 2024 and Don’t let yourself get boxed in by outdated audiophile concepts from 40 years ago that prohibit obvious solutions. Best to get with the times ( and corresponding modern technology).

I do a significant amount of my listening at lower sound levels and have built my last two systems around that goal.

If you want to listen to music at low sound levels, you need to start with the speakers. High efficiency speakers are a must, add quality amplification/ sources and add a little work on the room and you're pretty much there 

Adding bass / mid boost may sound satisfying but you end up obscuring detail and micro-dynamics.  You're not getting the whole enchilada.

Meridian Audio active loudspeakers with DSP technology. Expensive on the front end but eliminates the amp & wire game. No need for a sub when listening to music. Very pleasant and natural sounding without ear fatigue. Depreciation is high on the front end like an expensive auto, very affordable on pre owned market.

What is "Actual Instrument Volume"? An instrument is only as loud as the instrumentalist plays it. 

Surprised that nobody mentioned Audyssey Dynamic EQ yet. I have my Denon set for Audyssey to bypass the front speakers since the automatic calibration always sounds worse to my ears, but I have Dynamic EQ enabled which makes it sound excellent at low listening levels and dials back automatically as you increase the volume. 

@Crustycoot - I have a couple of questions about Yamaha's YPAO function. All the Yamaha equipment I have owned predates YPAO so I have no clue how well it works although I have read some favorable comments online. That said, does this room compensation software really give you a compensation for listening volume so that at low volume settings for your speakers it really mostly follows fletcher-munson curves? That would be a major point to consider if you are looking at buying new equipment and would be enough for me to consider buying Yamaha over some other manufacturer that does not offer this feature.

On my modest NAD 375bee I kick up the bass at low volumes, back in the early days the loudness switch of my Sansui AU717 was always on unless it was a party and the volume was at stupid levels. Most speakers won’t blume unless sufficiently powered and can use some help when only a few watts are applied. It’s not a sin if it sounds right ...

A little late to the party here, but I have been pondering this myself. What I haven't seen generally defined, though, is what constitutes low volume vs high volume listening. Max for me is 65-70 db. I've always thought that is on the lower side of max volume?

@yesiam_a_pirate So some are touching on the real problem here but most don’t seem to really understand it. Our ears are adapted to hearing human voices. Most of the time these are in the mid-bands. Because of this we have the Fletcher-Munson Curves mentioned earlier. And one guy mentioned the variable loudness control on his Yamaha. Pioneer had this too. This aural problem is why this control was put in receivers back in the day. The secret is that is automagically decreases gain on the really low and really high frequencies to make up for it since the systems boosts it when at low volume. And yes like the Yamaha guy I thought and still think it’s an awesome feature. Just using EQ alone doesn’t work because the effect isn’t linear. So you’d have to adjust the EQ gain per the level you are listening. Somebody might have said all this already but thought I’d throw my two cents in for understanding vs just solutions.

Easy fix. Add a subwoofer to your system. High level connection only. 

Børresen speakers solved this issue for me. 

Note the review of the Loki Max from the Absolute Sound...fairly comprehensive and accurate relative to my experience with it. If it wasn't I'd have happily sent it back. I don't have the thing activated in my system until I need it, then I generally use it to add sparkle and clear high frequencies if those are found to be lacking in a recording. Once in a while a bass shy recording gets a little boost, and nobody makes anything like the Max with a remote operating all frequencies and instant bypass to detect the effects of whatever you might have adjusted it for. I think it would fit with any system out there, and obviously I highly recommend the thing.

@travelinjack 

You just described what I love the most about the Variable Loudness knob on Yamaha gear.

Exactly! 

"Purists" are idiots. Unless you know exactly the volume the mastering engineer was playing a track, and have your room set up EXACTLY the same as they as they did with EXACTLY the same speakers, amps, and all associated gear, then I don’t care if your stereo cost $200K. You still have no way of knowing if what you are hearing remotely resembles what the mastering engineer was hearing.

Just fiddle all you want with EQ to "get the job done" in a way that you can enjoy the music at whatever volume you decide to listen.

All the fruits and nuts of the 1990s that purportedly called themselves "audiophiles" and had manufacturers do away with tone controls were clueless about real world sound and all the issues involved.

Efficient speakers that sound god-awful and "shouty" at regular volumes (i.e. most Klipsch) might sound full and dynamic at a lower one. YMMV. 

@jpwarren58 

One caveat certain songs do call for increased volume regardless.

....and frequently.... ;)

...some are good for curvy curves on the asphalt...

Rubber side down.

I'm in the camp of finding the proper speaker unless your room is a cluster. I have the Studio Electric M-5 and almost every time I start out loud and gradually settle in to much less volume. Maybe it's my tired ears but less does seem better. Powered by hybrid Modwright integrated. 

One caveat certain songs do call for increased volume regardless. 

@mapman & @ all y'all....

Ironic that every system sounds different,  even with “purists”

 I can't agree....even at gunpoint.

As one who has applied octave (later, parametric) eq's to compensate/correct 'for the room' since the late '70s' (tweaking for taste, of course), the lack of tone controls on any piece of 'primary equipment' has not been of of an issue.
It all began with a Audio Control C-101 oct eq with an RTA and the calibrated mic and the onboard pink noise generator....

Currently:

- 2 Behringer 8024 eq with DSP; 31 oct each + parametric eq's if desired.  One runs part of the 'show', the other 'just listens' with it's RTA and feeds to the 2nd 'puter with it's 'sndpeak' program that's running RTA, Lissajous, and the 'normal' db v. fq display in RT.

- The curve from the soundcard that I run 'flat', since it's early in the line...

- a DBX eq that I haven't bothered with.....

- the active Behr X-over that I've exploring to send What to Where....and I've got lots of where's to fart about with....

I can only and desire only to amuse myself....

You?

Come Here.

The beer is up to You.  Any 'adult enhancements' ditto....surprise me.

'Til then, bite me.

(...no, I'm not in a good mood...)

I'd figure out a way to have the eq in the chain when you wanted it but take it out when you're listening at normal volume.  Maybe a tape loop?  It's been a long time since I did something like that.

+1 Accuphase loundness (compensation) switch for low volume. Great for background listening.

Thanks @danager. That's pretty nifty. I just sent them an email to see if they can make one with XLR instead of RCA.

Too bad Dirac doesn't do multiple sweeps at varying volume levels.

I haven’t actually heard it but the Decware ZRock3 reads like it’s made for what you are describing.

https://www.decwareproducts.com/zrock3

I purchased a Schitt Lokius as well and was using the balanced inputs/outputs. I tried it in the system on a few separate occasions- switching back/forth with and without it in the signal chain. Unfortunately, it had to go. It flattened out and sucked some soundstage out. I removed it and soundstage and life was restored. It's wasn't a big difference but was enough to make me take it out. I've been eyeballing the Loki Max, but others here have said there are much better EQ's out there. Any feedback on your Loki Max experience (before/after) would be appreciated.

I purchased the Schiit Lokius and set it up in my preamp tape loop.  With my preamp remote I select tape to listen to the EQd sound.

I would love to have a Schiit Loki Max but am ok with one EQd setting.  If you want to store additional EQs or make adjustments on the fly it's definitely the way to go.

The problem with loudness contour functions in most implementations is that they fail to calibrate to a reference level.  Most overcompensate, and become boom generators.  In this respect, Yamaha’s variable loudness is superior to others.  The best implementation is YPAO Volume, a feature of MusicCast, which takes a microphone snapshot of your room and speaker together, and sets the reference level, EQ, and loudness compensation in one holistic swoop.  Next best is a preamp with a traditional loudness button used with an amplifier equipped with variable input gain. You lower the gain so that the volume setting where compensation tapers off matches the loudness your ear tells you you no longer need it…the “reference level”.  The last best way is with an equalizer.  I use a Schiit Loki+ in the EPL of my Conrad Johnson PF-R linestage, and it helps a lot.

My experience has been how well a system performs at low volume is hard to pin exactly to the source. However mine has gotten better and better at lower and lower volumes the better my system has gotten and now I happily enjoy 65 - 70 db. At this volume I get the fully nuanced and dynamic sound I crave. When playing a symphony I adjust it to where the sounds just barely audible coming from the sound floor are that, and crescendos are at the upper limit of undistorted hearing. But symphonies have the highest dynamic range.

From your descriptions of what you value in sound quality suggests that an equalizer is your solution. You want it to sound loud when it is not. If I were you, I would get the best quality equalizer you can. Folks that love loud music tend to appreciate the dynamics and force and not so much the nuanced detail… so the equalizer will improve what you love and not effect what you don’t.

I have the the newish Luxman L-507z. It has Bass and Treble controls and yes a Loudness button. It also has a line straight button that bypasses everything and is pure from the amp. I listen at 70db at nite on my cornwall IVs. Almost sounds too loud sometimes late at nite. But they sound is deep and rich withe great upper extension. Just a normal family room with no treatment. I rarely use any tone controls at all

"As far as enhancement devices (EQs, loudness contours, etc) are concerned, it would be nice if they could be placed in a tape or accessory loop so they can be switch in/out of the signal path at normal listening levels."

Yes, this. The ARC SP3 preamp had a tone defeat button. Along with the usual treble and bass controls, it had a knob for something they called "Contour", aka loudness. I rarely used them but when I did I was quite happy to have them.

I'm all for the 'straight wire with gain' philosophy but in the real world, a bit of help is not a bad thing IMHO.

Happy listening.

@bdp24 speaks the truth about efficiency

Speakers are calibrated at 1 watt @ 1 meter at the factory. Marketing materials are printed and distributed using this standard spec. So far, so good.

A "medium efficiency" speaker, say 85db (@ 1 watt) produces, duh, 85 decibels at 1 watt. When producing 75 db, this drops to 1/10 watt. Things are quite different inside that speaker box at those minuscule power levels. And, the sound will altered considerably.

Case in point:

We were a dealer with a wide range of speakers of various sizes and efficiencies. I decided to do a low listening level listening test with a (very) high efficiency speaker vs a medium efficiency (highly regarded) model. Somewhere north of 10 db difference in their efficiencies.

First, the medium efficiency: With volume starting at zero and slowly working our way up to just above the threshold of hearing, the sound was pretty much as we expected. Nicely rendered. But, a strong departure from its full volume levels.

Then, the (very) high efficiency speaker: Volume starting at zero, as before. Then slowly raising the volume to the same "just above the threshold of hearing" level. The music was dynamic, with some subtle characteristics of a live performance. Bandwidth was greatly improved. Yes, real bass. And, high end extension. Micro-dynamics, absent in the other example, were audible and engaging. This was simply a comparison that was no comparison.

This is not a "pitch" for high efficiency speakers, but merely a statement that low energy applied to a high efficiency driver can move things around in a more energetic (and musically satisfying) way.  At low listening levels, we're experiencing the "perfect storm" of flaws in human hearing PLUS mechanical/electrical limitations of the speaker.  

As far as enhancement devices (EQs, loudness contours, etc) are concerned, it would be nice if they could be placed in a tape or accessory loop so they can be switch in/out of the signal path at normal listening levels.

bdp has it right.  Less sensitive speakers need a little more volume to reach their potential.  Wilsons Magnepans etc.

I own 3 Schiit EQs and all of them work brilliantly. I use a Loki in my video rig, and another for a headphone EQ running into a Schiit Vali 3 tube amp. The third is a Loki Max remote EQ in my main hifi pile...this thing is brilliant. 4 Presets, amazingly well designed EQ curves in a remote controllable ultra quiet hip design. No noise, built like no other EQ I've ever come across in decades of audio geekdom and professional musician work. Will utterly cure Fletcher Munson issues with zero negative impact on your groovy ARC amps...or any other amp. I don't use DSP anywhere as I'm too much of a snob.

@trivema You are welcome. I have tried the RC / PEQ with Wiim Pro Plus several times in different listening space at home for three systems and utimately revert back to GEQ as well. Maybe to do with microphone?

@baylinor Not sure what is considered low volume.

YMMV but, for me when listening music at night, I turn the volume down to 45-50dB range which is really a tester for bass. My background (ambience) noise with AC on/off is around 30-35dB.  I need to boost which frequency (60-80hz) up by +8 / +9 dB and normalize them to bring back the articulation and balance of the low-end notes.