Is This the Essence of "The Audiophile Dilemma?

For some it is. Hate that song.

I think it’s more about not knowing what you’re looking for. A predictable byproduct of our modern way of buying without audition. In the old days you walked into a dealer and said “I like that one” and at least you were in the ballpark. I realize brick and mortar is on the decline, but that’s the way of the world.  

It is not an all or none proposition. 

First of all, most of us have no idea what we are looking for and I do not mean this in a bad way. Most of us have limited exposure to really great systems and you do not find them at dealers regardless of the equipment they use. There are a few dealers who do a great job. I could probably count them on the fingers of one hand. I would bet more of us have been exposed to live music than great systems.

Second of all, most people buy a system and have no intention of climbing an audiophile tree. This includes some audiophiles. They have found what they are looking for.

The rest of us have found part of what we are looking for and just have to make a few improvements. This is the incremental group. We know what we are looking for and will get there eventually given the availability of equipment and finances. I do not know about the rest of you but I am loving the ride. 

@roxy54 , Not one of mine either.

What dilemma? 

May be inevitable at some point in system building. Certainly experienced this on my journey to finding what I was always looking for.

 

One great advantage newer audiophiles have over us oldies is digital has improved so much over the years. My reference for audio has always been top notch analog/vinyl, digital never had a chance back in the day, didn't stop me from trying.

Live music is your guide, and patience your friend.

I think it’s very difficult for people to feel secure in their choices. I was a conservatory-trained musician and I also had my own music production company, so I know what I like when I hear it. Doesn’t make my taste more “correct” than anyone else’s, but it does make me confident in my choice. I can see the dilemma of the average person who hears all these reviewers talking about how great everything is, so they buy it and can’t understand why they don’t love it. IMO, the answer is to work with a good dealer or consultant who will help you find stuff you like, but as said above, these people are scarce nowadays.  

Some will never be content. There is no "perfect" system. Then again, perfection is very subjective. Blown way way too much money on this supposed hobby or whatever it is. I've learned to be content, for the most part, with what I got. 

I know I’ll never have the perfect equipment or the perfect room for that matter, so I know I will have to be content with what I have for now.

Maybe if I win Powerball and devote the rest of my years…

@audition__audio +1

Some people treat a journey as something negative.

Others see it as the thing worth valuing.

The idea that my system is not where it could be is not a negative -- it's a positive. As Browning said, "a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?"

“I think it’s more about not knowing what you’re looking for”
+1, @chayro

A good system building process takes time and patience.  

If you don't know what you're looking for, then you won't realize that you've found it even if you do find it.  A quandary.

Not everybody is on an epic journey.  I suspect many just want to get something that sounds good so they can listening to music.  Every now an then they'll start a post along the lines of "have there been any improvements since 1992?"

Like Hilde I love the journey. 

This is where trips to high end stores are really helpful, coupling with reading through Stereophile, HiFi+, and The Absolute Sound about the equipment you heard. If you have to drive to a city… make appointments… tell them you are surveying different sounds looking for a match. That you want some time with the best they have. Stay in a motel. This is all well worth the cost.

 

I had gone into a dealer in the late 70’s and heard a system that simply blew me away. It was inspirational for decades to come. You are very right to ask the question… if you are not sure where you want to go, you are never going to get there by accident. It is really hard work to get there (assuming you do not have a near infinite budget) even knowing what you want. Took me decades, as my tastes changed along the way.

@petg60 

Live music is your guide, and patience your friend.

 

 

Such a simple idea, a truism that I'd seen many times, and yet one that I ignored for decades.

Only now years later, I can ask myself, why was that?

Well, in my case I think it wasn't always an accurate sound that I was after, but a memory of a particular one that I held in my head.

For a long time.

There will be some who'll say that no system can get anywhere near to a truly lifelike sound, but there's also no doubt that some of them get a closer than others.

As Edgar Choueiri pointed out in his Audioholics podcast, the spatial aspects and imagery, and then timing seem to be the keys into fooling the brain that it's not listening to a live performance.

The very 2 qualities usually found in live music!

As he explains, frequency response, sample rates, bit rates and other ephemera such as jitter etc hardly seem to matter in comparison.

 

 

Take a look at Jays Audio Lab on FB! He's gone through over 60 amps in his search for perfection! IMO this is certifiable behavior - time to call the men in white coats!

@jasonbourne52 +1

People change components and cables, looking for better sound. Reminds me of the drunk looking for his car keys under the streetlight. "Where did you lose them?" "A block that way." "Why aren't you looking there?" "The light is better here."

Often, a modest expenditure on room acoustics will provide more improvement than the latest, greatest component or (most certainly) latest, greatest wires. But not as fun as shiny new gear nor as easy to sneak into the house as new wires.

I wonder how much audio equipment Jasonbourne52 has? Most people would think the same thing of you.

@ps,

If you don't know what you want/need, then ask someone who does- like a good dealer like John Rutan (Audioconnection), because he does know. And, I say this as one who never trusted a dealer until Johnny.

bob

Live music is your guide, and patience your friend.

Ok, perhaps. For some music. Sitting...7th row center? Further up? Back? Ok, we can just rough it out.

Dark Side of the Moon and everything else multi-tracked, mixed, tweaked, etc. -- live music is not a guide.

Electronic music, made with synthesizers, computers, etc.? Live is not a guide.

 

 

Take a look at Jays Audio Lab on FB! He's gone through over 60 amps in his search for perfection! IMO this is certifiable behavior - time to call the men in white coats!

Agree. Has his room changed in that time? Have speakers, DACs, other things changed? Has his preferences changed during his auditions? What keeps his compass pointed at the north star and his variables stable? Or is this more of a kind of performance -- something like one would see at a carnival. "Watch the spinning plates, kids."

Classic audiophile dilemma is assembling: the most accurate audio system with very high sensitivity money can buy OR an audio system musical and forgiving with modest sensitivity

Now some may argue one can have the cake and eat the cake. That depends on your software. If your software is all high quality LPs, CDs, etc,. then perhaps you can put together the best system money can buy with very high sensitivity, yet also musical. However, for an old geek like me who still listen to music from very old mono recordings, cassettes, LPs, CDs, from 1930's onward, cranking up sensitivity comes with a price.

 

So I tend to favor audio components mostly forgiving yet musical. I may sacrifice sensitivity to get there. Only exception is my speakers, Thiel 3.6s which I will not say very forgiving!  But I get to enjoy >90% of my software this way.

 

Thank you guys (ladies are welcome, please) for some very informative responses.

Keep ’em coming, please.

@cd318 That video is fascinating. Thank you.

@mike_in_nc Good one. And relevant.

@gdnrbob Coincidentally, I did chat with Mr. Rutan a few weeks ago to get his opinion of an Audio Research tube integrated I’ve been considering. :)

Be well, all.

 

Factor 1 - Audiophile equipment ranges from relatively affordable to stuff that's very few could even consider as a possibility, so there's always something bigger and better available.

Factor 2 - Every audiophile has different references and unique listening spaces, so the only way to really know is by trying gear in your own listening space.

Factor 3 - Many audiophiles are in it for the hobby as much as for the music so upgrading and trying different gear is part of the fun.

Factor 4 - In my opinion, most people struggle to separate something sounding "different" with it sounding "better" unquestionable better.

At this point my system is reasonably on the audiophile scale of possibilities, but exceeds anything that I ever had as a goal, so I'm satisfied...for now.

I think that most audiophiles that have embraced this hobby for a fairly significant length of time will admit it's not just about the music. Technology always keeps moving forward and with it the hope of gaining a little more satisfaction with change. I know for me, the 'streaming thing' has opened up a whole new world of listening options that have reenergized my interest across the board and I find myself spending more time with my system(s) than say a year or two ago. 

@mceljo

Well-stated, sir. (BTW, I wish I hadn't sold my Pathos Classic III. :) )

@brauser

+1000 on "the streaming thing"

 

Dilemma? How about "fun." Great audio is FUN, and if you're too tightly wound to have fun since you may be worried about your subs or "early reflections" (good name for a book) or toe-in...you should do something else. I look for new music frequently, and sometimes get curious about some new amp or something and when I try something and it's good, it's MO FUN. Bloviating hobby extremists who are utterly obsessed about sharing their self inflicted audio issues are clearly tedious and unhappy people needing therapy...and maybe another hobby.

the path is the goal :-)

 

If you have it, it's a self-made dilemma that with careful expert psychological training at great expense and over a long period can be overcome.

I have never had the irresistible concern that my system isn't performing satisfactorily.  But I do upgrade from time to time.  This is driven mainly by the market.  If a component - has to be active not passive - launches and receives very strong reviews then, if it's in my price range - quite high but not unlimited - I go to a dealer and borrow one for two or three weeks.  If it makes a big improvement then I probably buy it if I haven't had a purchase for a number of year.  Otherwise I don't make changes.  Recent changes/additions have been Ortofon Verismo, Audio Reasearch Ref 6, van den Hul The Grail SE.  All real game changers, although have three or four other brilliant cartridges - the Grail interprets them all to perfection and for only $20k.

I only get more satisfied with my system, not less so.

I don't sit on edge not enjoying the music because I'm waiting to hearing something I don't like.   That is audiofear, a deadly condition that kills the pleasure from music.  And from hi-fi.

I sure hope that is not the case for most audiophiles, if not for all. The key is to refine your preferred audio sound as you keep moving up over the years.

I was fortunate to learn with, and patronize real audio shops in the late 70s, 80, 90s, and on, until the gradual decline of brick and mortar stores. I’m not sure how I’d have ever learned what my ears now know without those stores and guys. Now, good high end shows can help; and losing RMAF makes me cringe.

And if you still can’t find the sound you are looking for after a long time, your process for looking/listening may be off, or your preferences are a moving target (good luck if that’s the case-sounds like a revolving door inventory of gear).

Over the years I worked on speaker and component upgrades as funds permitted and finally truly found the sound/speakers (and electronics) I love and can happily keep in retirement with no real yearning to upgrade. Still, I can think of better versions of my system, usually moving up the speaker line one prefers, or smart electronic component upgrades. But I don’t worry at all now.

And, even with my systems of the late 90s and over the next 20 years, I’ve never been unhappy and ‘still looking’ at any time (save one or two gross system mismatches based on buying used without hearing or understanding the sound). I did move from ML electrostats to Dyne Sapphire 3-way dynamic speakers but got lucky and settled on smaller 2½-way used speakers that are much more refined. Happy and done but would take the next larger model if offered a pair…

The constant craving can end, honest.

Poor widdle audiophiles.  Problems problems.   The world ain’t fair.  😢

Seems as if some of the comments posted during and after happy hour, or perhaps other recreational substances, have a rather different tone than those from earlier in the day. :)

This has been an informative thread for me, so thanks again to everyone who has posted.

@ps - I forgot to add that to have the greatest success you have to start at the speakers AND the source since nobody can agree on where to start. Focusing on everything is always the best policy.

Also, I’ve noticed that if someone asks for an opinion on a specific item like interconnects they will get advice ranging from a specific interconnect to every other possible interconnect to needing to upgrade another component or tweak in their system to treating their room (aka @erik_squires) to everyones crazy (aka @jasonbourne52)

The call outs are intended in good fun, we all have our roles to play :-)

@mapman  *LOL*  Yeah, some warm milk with an adult additive ought to help, too.... ;)

Enjoy what you're doing to enjoy what you do the rest of the time with it.

Which part of that you place first is basically the difference....or not. *S*😏

One's gear can't replace live, whereas live can disappoint v. a reproduction of the same set....

"The roar of the grease paint, the smell of the crowd...."

How much spent on concerts (esp. now....tix ain't trix,no...) v. the mass you've assembled so patiently, patently....is an interesting contrast to muse...

....but then, I can listen to White Zombie being More Human Than Human, and feel safe from the crowd... ;)

Just good clean fun loud.....J

 

At some point I realized that no matter how good my system gets it will never approximate the experience of sitting in a concert hall with a live orchestra.  And in the realm of pop there is rarely a master tape, due to all the processing in constructing songs and mixing.  Therefore since there is no way of getting “The Truth” I have to settle for an illusion of it.  Some times the flavors vary, but it is still an illusion.  This realization has made it very easy to be cured of Upgraditis 

I saved some quotes in a list at the top of my audio notes.

These are the first three.

Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for. - Epicurius

Since the beginning of high-end audio reproduction, there has been a notion promoted: It's going to sound like the real thing. That's a fantasy. It doesn't sound like the real thing, and it never can. … [the goal is] an acceptable sound, which provides the maximum amount of information contained in the software within the limitations of the listening environment. - Richard Sequerra

When I go to Verizon Hall in the Kimmel Center in Philadephia and sit in my favorite seat to listen to the Philadelphia Orchestra, I realize that 137 years after the original Edison phonograph audio technology still hasn’t quite caught up with unamplified live music in a good acoustic venue. To be sure, my state-of-the-art stereo system renders a startlingly faithful imitation of a grand piano, a string quartet, or a jazz trio, but a symphony orchestra or a large chorus? Close but no cigar. - Peter Aczel

First:

No recording play back ressemble the real live event or reproduce it.... It is an ACOUSTIC translation in your room... Not a reproduction which is more an electronical expression than an acoustic expression...

 

Second:

It does not matter, if we suppose your gear choice is minimally right, what price tag you had paid for you system...it is a secondary factor...

 

Third:

 

Matter first and last the way you will embed your gear mechanically, electrically and acoustically.... None of these three different controls methods will be able to replace the other one, nevermind their price...

 

Four:

 

If you are not in heaven with your system now it is probably not the system fault, if not wrongly chosen to begin with, but a non adressed problem in vibration control, or a too higher noise floor in the house uncontrolled, or an acoustic problems and lack of psycho-acoustic basic installation or all that at the same time...

High price tag+no embeddings method = probable unsatisfaction

 

Five:

 

My own system is 500 bucks vintage, beat all my 8 well modified headphones and make me laugh at any upgrade possible and i am afraid now at the idea of buying any upgrade because of the price/S.Q. ratio... There is a better system than mine read me right.... Half of the systems displayed here are better than mine .... But they are not well embedded...Then most people are frustrated, resigned or throw their money in upgrade...

There exist, accessible to most, basically good piece of gear well embedded in a minimal acoustic TRESHOLD of sound quality, after you reach it, you listen music smiling and forgetting any upgrade, even a good improving upgrade will not appeal so much, without frustration...

 

That is the truth i lived through and i learned with listenings experiments in the last 10 years, especially the last two years....Money dont deliver high quality sound, well embeddings controls will do...Spare you money, listen and think... If a non crafty man like me was able to do it you will do it,  at some extent, near this qualitative minimal threshold...

 

 

There is NO audiophile dilemma. there is only people who dont know that we all must learn to listen and we must learn how to hear...Price tag dont replace acoustic basic education and experiments...And it may cost peanuts in a dedicated room and nothing is more fun...But it takes much time...

 

 

 

 

As my dear departed dad used to say: "How come, no matter what you're looking for, you always find it in the last place you look?" I have lived by those words ever since and have yet to find anything prematurely.

@denverfred 

As my dear departed dad used to say: "How come, no matter what you're looking for, you always find it in the last place you look?" I have lived by those words ever since and have yet to find anything prematurely.

 

Your post reminded me of my recent experience with the iFi Zen Air Bluetooth DAC.

It might not be the very last word in fidelity but it did leave me wondering whether I actually needed a CD player.

The sheer convenience and comfort of being able to play anything off my phone without even bothering to get up is very addictive.

No more pulling out a CD to just play the odd track, no mess, no clutter.

Have I finally found what I was always looking for?  In a most unexpected place?

 

 

@cd318 

:)

@denverfred 

 

😂

 

My dilemma was solved when I realized that I cannot always be carried away in bliss by music, no matter how good the sound quality is. 

@asctim 

+1

And applicable to other life's pleasures.  :)

That's why it's called a honeymoon period.

@hilde45 , very rational. I like your train of thought.

 

Many concerts have terrible sound quality. You have to pick your venues for the best sound. They are either open air or small, perhaps100 people capacity. Still you usually do not get the magical image a great system is capable of. Can a home system match the dynamics of a live performance? This is a tough one. You do not want to damage your hearing but you want to feel the music as well as get the image you get at Venues like Boston Symphony Hall. I think this is possible. I myself am not quite there. Will I go all the way for the USA? Nothing is written in stone.

@mijostyn Thanks. You state, "Many concerts have terrible sound quality. You have to pick your venues for the best sound."

That's exactly right. What is constantly misunderstood in this hobby is the notion of "truth" or, if you prefer, "real." @mahler123 says, ""Therefore since there is no way of getting “The Truth” I have to settle for an illusion of it."

That statement indicates that what he is settling for just IS reality. There is no reality/illusion dichotomy. There is experience and then the question returns to us, "Is this something I like?" There is no metaphysical issue between reality and illusion. It's all real.

If I am sitting in a practice room an a cellist is playing, where should I sit for the "true" sound? Right next to her? Behind her? 10 feet away? What if I'm 100 feet away? One might say that all these sounds are "true" because I am in the room with her. But if I'm 100 feet away and the room acoustics are poor, how will that match up to my sitting in my listening room, 8 feet away from a stereo playing a recording of her that sounds delightful? Won't that sound more "true"? But, someone will say, it's not "live" any more. Fair enough, but if the criteria is "acoustical enjoyment" and not "simultaneity with the event of her playing" then "truth" is different.

If the above made sense, it should be clear that "truth" depends on the "criterion." But for audiophiles, there is often NO dilemma because the criterion is pre-determined to be subjective musical enjoyment.

Being able to verbalize in musical terms helps with reviews. I'd recommend a copy of the' Harvard Dictionary of Music'. I bought my equipment via a combination of listening to pieces at a reputable dealer and by reading reviews via the internet. I've called dealers and have asked them questions about products while explaining what I have and what I'm looking for. Tweaks can also tune a system and I've found a couple of tweaks that made a day and night difference.

I know there are people who want scientific data, meter readings, etc... I don't dismiss that for people who can make good decisions by analyzing numbers and charts but that's not me.

Fortunately I live in a city with a top rated conservatory and a venerated concert hall. Our symphony orchestra is pretty good. The experience of hearing music in a live venue is certainly an advantage and a bit of common sense can go a long way.