PS audio new 25K dac and the psychological effect of owning a company's best.

That’s ridiculous. I think they’re hurting for cash, they spent a ton of money on their speakers that they never released and they got rid of their dealers so they can’t go and force them to order more product now they are dealing with the ultimate customer the eight it on the other end of the Internet. Good luck To them they make nice stuff and it was priced correctly. I owned their direct stream DAC and found it does sound very nice. I don’t see how they can justify $25,000 for a DAC unless they need the money for what they would call research and development which I think is they made a few decisions they didn’t pay off

Another example of a company preying upon the insecure and gullible! There is no way that the parts count of this expensive DAC can justify such a high price! This applies to all uber-expensive DACs. A DAC is just a circuit board with a power supply in a case. An expensive price tag just stokes confirmation bias!

An analogy would be the $25K diamond-encrusted Rolex!

Most every line has a sweet spot, both for value and performance. Generally, I've found that sweet spot to be in the mid to upper-mid level. That's what I look for, and I have absolutely no need or desire to own the top of the line product.

I am happier when I spend less for top end performance. I replaced a preamp and DAC recently that cost 5x and 2x more respectively, without a backward step in performance.

Audio gear pricing is such a joke. Got to set the price high so that people perceive value.

This new PS Audio DAC will have a particular sonic signature. Is that sound signature something that floats your boat? If not then the price is irrelevant. If you agree with the sonics then maybe something to consider if you think $25K makes sense for a DAC. For me, even if I love the sound of this new $25K DAC, this price is not sensible. For speakers, I could do that but never for a DAC.

The pride of ownership is often a factor in our purchases and there’s nothing wrong with it. But I don’t see that factor coming into play with PS Audio. They certainly make good products, but I can’t picture anyone sitting back saying "I have the best thing PS audio makes". I bet the dac will sound great because I know it will have a huge outboard power supply, which makes a big difference. But at 25k, they’re coming up against Audio Note, Metronome, Playback Design... Good luck fellas. Who knows? I’ll tell you one thing - if I were spending big bucks on a dac, I want a company that’s going to be around to service it. I would hate to end up with a Vekian or a Balabo or one of those great but unserviceable dacs. And to those who think a 25k dac is crazy in absolute terms, you should hear a Naim CD555. In the right system you can hear every penny. As you well should. There are others I'm sure. 

Anyone who takes pride in owning the best hasn't processed the fact that time will make mincemeat out of "best." Get something that sounds good and remain open to trading it in later. Change is inevitable and the idea of "the best" is a form of denial about change.

Many audio companies are making their audio version of a Mulliner Bacalar, largely for the overseas market.

Sell just a few, and you've got some significant gains.

You're either paying for the genius of Ted or you're not. Any other judgements before it is released and reviewed are rrelevant.

I am not PS Audio fan boy had zero luck with any of their products. But to condemn them for offering or working on a $25K DAC is silly when there are others out there that cost even more.
LampizatOr Pacific DAC (starts from $27,000 USD)

There are the haves and the have not. Hey if you got the cash.....
Free market got to love it.

I have to admit that I have felt like the OP at times when I previously owned a company's top of the line product and they introduced something above the product I owned.

But I agree with @rlb61 that the best value is often in middle-of-the-line products. This is particularly true when the mid product was introduced after the current top-of-the-line since there is often things learned in the development of the top-end product that can and are applied to the new lower-priced items. 

For that money, I'll shop with Audio Note or Lampizator.

@roxy54 No doubt

For that money, I'll shop with Audio Note or Lampizator

yes, i prefer my genius designer to freeze improvement and innovation just after release of the flagship..fabric biplane….

silly

i do like a genius like Jim White of Aesthetix who offers 3 levels of DAC with an upgrade path… standard, signature and Eclipse….

and a world class dac is much much more than a circuit board and a power supply….

I am grateful for what I have.   Some of it is not  too shabby. 

That "psychological effect" is a highly unstable phenomena! 

There will always be an Obsidian Ted Smith Signature MKII over the horizon. Some people cannot get off the merry-go-round. It is their misfortune to have the money to endlessly chase an unreachable goal.

And in the meantime, what happens to enjoyment of music?  

It seems far wiser to me to emulate mapman:

 "I am grateful for what I have"

If you already have their previous best effort and you are happy with it why upgrade a lot of the top tier gear is just for bragging rights about how much money you spent on it, it is not about getting better sound.

Not in a million year , I owned their top dac and opened the unit up 
cut my finger on the cheap thin sheet metal and inside half empty 
what a joke ,I bought the night and day better built as well as sounding Bricasti M3 dac , with $1k streamer card $6500 retail and made in MA,USA all fully CNC machined Aluminum classic dual classic laser trimmed AD 1955 Multibit dacs , great Direct to Ethernet very quiet and just add a Uptone  audio Ether regen 
right before the Ethernet input and it sounds excellent, stream Roon and  QObuz , a fantastic honest ,naturally sounding dac over 90% of good as their $10 k M1 dac 👍.

This is so far past the 'point of diminishing returns' that a person would have to have other needs to fill other than just enjoying great music. Move the decimal point one place to the left and I might think about it.

Well, based on what Paul shared below very recently, the pricing of this unit is quite straightforward and just a routine multiple of production costs...

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/pricing-models/

I’m "not buying it".

Forgive a company for going all out once in a while on a statement product. You all should probably hear it before judging. It will either be way better than the DSD dac or it won’t, but if it is, there will be a market.

The company is free to make and sell whatever they want.  However, when a company that has had a long standing history of occupying a certain tier of a a product market suddenly lurches and starts going after a much different market sector, it is interesting to speculate as to why.  Especially when that company has been reaching out to consumers with videos and product forums like PSAudio, the effect of which creates a type of family atmosphere.  Now the family members feel like the teenage children of a marriage where dad has dumped mom for a flashy new girlfriend and wants the kids to acquiesce to him blowing their college money to get her a new Ferrari .
  I remember a John Atkinson column during the crash a decade ago.  In it he basically argued that the gap between the very rich and everyone else was going to widen.  He recommended a survival strategy where we all figure out ways to make a living servicing the one percenters
.  I suspect PSAudio is tired of being seen as a value company that the hoi poloi frequent, but that can safely be dismissed by the “big spenders” (“Good looking, so refined, the minute you walked in the joint I could tell you were mine…”).
First they dumped their dealer network.  Now they are chasing the stratospheric pricing market.  Do some of these moves show a hint of desperation?  Or are they just being diligent and exploring all possible markets?  I would love it if the next PSAUDIO video features the CFO going over the company balance sheet.

Any pricing or timeline on this is strictly conjecture.  PS Audio has purposefully been mum on this as parts shortages and other factors make it even unknown to Paul McGowan.  Personally, I doubt we will even see it before 2023. 

@raysmtb1. They are not hurting for cash.  They are sound enough financially to be able to build their own state of the art recording studio in a huge building they are totally renovating. 

In reading this post and the responses it garnered it brings to mind a question I've had for a while. What metrics can a buyer look at for DAC purchases? What makes a 25k DAC better than 10K better than a 3k better than a 1k DAC? With other products such as speakers or amps we can look at measurements or build or a variety of factors to justify or dismiss the cost of a product. What can the purchaser look to to say "this makes it worth this" ?

Personally, I would never spend 25K on any DAC.  Today’s 25K DAC will be worth less than 50% in just a couple of years.  

$25k can get you a life time Qobuz subscription plus local symphony orchestra. . I won't spend more than $1000 for a good DAC. $5000 a good pair of good speakers. Enjoy the music not the quipment.

It's easy to complain about DACs costing $25k, but it would be a shame if this thread focused only on that issue. I'm certainly among those who would never pay that much for a DAC, but I'm glad that PS Audio is designing a state-of-the-art DAC to fully utilize the genius of Ted Smith to see how good they can make a DAC sound. 

PS Audio is already using some of the lessons learned in designing the more expensive DAC to trickle down into an updated Mk II version of the current DirectStream DAC. The DSD Mk II is scheduled to be released later this year and will include better power supplies, expanded FPGA capacity, more sophisticated software, etc. I'm certainly looking forward to what Ted can design - and PS Audio manufacture - in a DAC costing a lot less than $25K. 

If innovations in developing this dac trickle down to more affordable dacs good for all of us. Otherwise, value is only known to those who purchase it.
I presume cache of PS Audio goes up if dac reviews as state of art.

Well as for music lover, I have 5k hours on my middling DAC

of course I have a gratitude journal….

And I agree the Bricasti gear is top notch and offer fantastic value

A lot of brands have an option for the rich guy who just wants an expensive elite item. That buyer actually wants it to be expensive.

On a positive note, paying more might make you appreciate the item more. Much like buying a new LP when you were young... They were expensive to you so you really took care of them and listened intently. You cherished them. If they were 1 cent each it wouldn’t be the same, even though the music was the same.

@jasonbourne52 I'm not sure I'd compare a DAC to a Rolex. Whether you buy a stainless steel for $10k or a solid gold with diamonds for $50k the movement is the same. You're paying for jewelry, not utility.
I'd argue that most $25k DACs and expensive products are more statement pieces and "art" of sorts. PS Audio has never marketed for art or appearance and I can't think how they could possibly justify that price over the DSD DAC they offer today. I could be wrong, but I'll never know because I'd never buy a DAC for that price.

I’m all for the free market and "whatever the market will bear" for pricing. People can charge and pay what they want. I suspect part of the disappointment expressed here is because we know that kind of pricing is hyper-inflated and is driven by marketing to vanity among those who find fulfillment in sharing with others how expensive each piece in the "collection" costs them (not what it’s worth). Et tu, PS Audio?

When I see pricing on stuff like that it makes me more inclined to dismiss the company’s offerings entirely. It undermines Trust in whether I’m really getting something of value or that I bit on what was marketed elsewhere in the line.

In contrast, and not to compare product performance, it’s interesting that the guys at Schiit almost feel compelled to share pricing of some of the parts in their $2500 Yggdrasil dac. $25k dacs are exactly the stuff they scorn; or, maybe they just haven’t found enough expensive parts to cram into their dac? I kinda doubt it.

Admittedly, I have not been keeping up with the info on the proposed TSS DAC from PS Audio and do not know if the $25K will be the release price.   As I recall, this is to be a 2-box unit with one for digital and the other for analog.   Ted Smith is a very bright guy and I believe the end result will be impressive.   I suspect there will be trickle down improvements to their less expensive unit designed to replace the current DirectStream DAC, which has had a long run.  I also believe they are designing for future enhancements in what the unit will do with long term life cycle.  

Now, that being said, there are a number of very high performing DACs now available for significantly less money new.   Audio gear suffers from significant depreciation.   That can be a real downer for original owners who look to sell and potentially a boon to buyers for preowned.  

We can bet there will be lots of professional reviews, some just regurgitating specs and marketing, but there are also some really good reviewers who go further in depth and compare with other similar and less priced units.  

I suggest it is premature to crown or demonize the TSS.   Some will never buy it due to its expense or out of choice, but let's see how it stacks up in value and performance once it is out.  

First, to answer your question - I always try to buy what I believe I will eventually end up with (usually it's the model costing a bit more than the model I'm currently looking at), but the TOTL doesn't always equate to the best quality, so, no.  Now, to address PS Audio in general - their equipment doesn't hold its value well, so expect to lose a ton of money when you are looking to unload it.  Additionally, going all out on a DAC is an unwise move because the technology for them changes much faster than other pieces in the chain.  PS Audio is not the best at future-proofing their equipment and they're padding their prices due to their trade-in policy.  If anyone here has enough disposable income that they can consider a $25k DAC and dump their current perfectly good equipment for a big loss, more power to you, it's your money.

Same old song and dance.. Let's see... how about a Chord Dave at less then half ?? 

The proof will be in its delivery. If the price is indeed $25k, it will have an uphill battle to prove itself in a field of great, less expensive options from the likes of the DAVE + M Scaler, dCS Bartok, or Denafrips Terminator to name a few.

I can never buy a used component when the seller says something like “I’m selling this to move up the line.”
I’m not sure why but I feel it might be relevant in some way to the original post :)

I can never buy a used component when the seller says something like “I’m selling this to move up the line.”

I can't understand why you'd care what his reason is rooze.

Relevant to the OP: No, doesn't matter one bit.

I was all set and ready to place an order for Tekton's best Ulfberht when just before ordering talked to the one with the most experience, having had both Ulf and Moab in his own system. He said save your money, so I did and ordered Moab. 

Then couple months ago I was all set to buy a Raven Reflection. On the hunt for a year, real excited. Talked to Dave and James, Blackhawk is very good. So now I have the Blackhawk.

Then just a few weeks ago ordered Origin Live Sovereign MkIV and Enterprise MkIV. Mark Baker asked about going 12". Which by all accounts is better. But only marginally, while the cost increase is not marginal at all.

So I don't just talk the talk, I walk the walk. Here's why.

The price bump from Moab to barely better Ulf is more than $5k. For less than $5k I got Townshend Podiums and a full blown major league crossover upgrade. These together transformed this already excellent speaker to freaking world class level have to hear em to believe it.

The more than $10k price bump from Blackhawk to Reflection got me a world class turntable and arm.  

These are just my examples. For sure there are others. My opinion, I love that there are guys so obsessed with their BSD bragging rights they flip these things. They drive the market and keep stuff available for those of us clever enough to know it is called a sound SYSTEM for a reason.

I enjoyed my Direct Steam Dac with all the latest updates for quite a few years.
However, I sold it to help pay for a Lumin X1. The Lumin X1 is multiples better in sound quality!
So, there is lots of room for sound quality improvement over the Direct Stream Dac.

ozzy

If you  wanna splurge....Get a Rockna  wavedream   with an accompanying server, about as good as it gets. Change the crossovers in your speakers for some Duelunds, replace capacitors in your amps( Again Duelunds tin plated copper foil), change fuses for  wax filled ones etc. 
DACs are 1 part of the chain, but everything needs to be sorted out to get the best sound in your setup.  

Make sure when you book appointment to audition have both dacs ( Flagship vs Direct stream) on hopefully they are same voltage out bring your goto music test tracks. Find a comfortable volume level on preamp. Tell salesman to queue up first dac and then second. Try a few times back and forth if you want not knowing which dac is playing. You may need a cloth to cover the front displays. Go with the one that you like best. But if you choose the $25k one get your credit card ready! 😆

25K
any audio piece over 2K is inflated pricing. 
  Parts, time to machine the cases, etc, is all relavent, but to add 10K to any piece is just robbery. 

I purchased a PS Audio Powerplant P10 when it was their top of the line regenerator.  I remember it being around $ 5K.   It sucked the life out of my amplifiers, there are also several settings that dramatically change the sonic signature- I can't really find one that sounds neutral, and now it has been supplanted by several models that cost a lot more.  Obviously I'm not a fan of their regenerators.

I also purchased a PS Audio Noise Harvester for $ 100.  Amazing gadget.  I now have 10-12 in and around my system.  The more I add the better the effect.  I would buy more if I had more outlets.  And yes I have 5 in the P10 and they do help with background noise in the P10 which I use for my digital gear.

The moral is you don't always have to spend top dollar to get a companies best product.

jasonbourne52
Another example of a company preying upon the insecure and gullible! There is no way that the parts count of this expensive DAC can justify such a high price!

Ohhh! now wait a minute JB, it may have that $2500 ac fuse in it!! Now wonder if it’s in the right way around.
Remember P.S.A. also bought into MQA when there were $$$$ to be made in it, then backed out as fast as a rat up a drainpipe when it was discovered to be a hoax.

Cheers George

I have a 25 Grand Speaker setup, Fuses were the most bang for the buck upgrade I was able to get. Being the tinkerer I am, I figured out how to make my own fuses for 3 dollars a pop that compete with ones being sold for $250 each.
All you need, is some epoxy glue, Silicon Dioxide and some mineral oil. Mix the oil and silica into a fine paste, fill the fuse cylinders, use epoxy glue to put end caps back on, let dry... and you have the cheapest most substantial upgrade to your audio system.
Best fuses to use are ChiFi aucharm fuses, they go for 2 dollars a piece....about. 
End caps can be pulled off  with the proper tools. 

PSA is trying to break into the next higher tier of audio. The new speakers will start at $25k as well (there's a teaser in the current Stereophile). Paul has already stated new monoblocks (BHK 600 series) are coming soon. I’m sure a new high pre will be close. I’m sure PSA will keep their more affordable and mid line series. Personally, it’s one thing to buy speakers or amp/pre for $25,000+ (could last a lifetime). A Dac which will could be "outdated" in 10 years time (or less) does not make much sense. No matter how updatable it is. It’s all relative. If you buy $200,000 cars, you are not going to put "costco special buy" tires on one.