I really like my speakers but I am considering an upgrade. I have B&W 801 S2 MkIII that I bought new in 1999 (re-coned with modded x-over). I’m afraid that what I get will not equal them and new may just be different.
They are bi-amped with McIntosh up top and Krell on the bottom. Analog is Revox B77 and dig is Oppo 105D with Bryston DAC3.
I will also likely upgrade the DAC but this thread is about speakers.
I need a dynamic loudspeaker that is as good with chamber music as it is with acoustic jazz, rock and electronic music (everything but Country and Rap).
I haven’t heard anything yet but am considering Borrersen X3, Wilson Sasha and B&W 803 D4.
Should I be afraid or will these speakers all best a 25 yr old design?
I’m a big believer in physics and can’t see (or hear) how the X3s go very deep, but I failed to mention that I have a VMPS Larger sub driven by Crown K2, so deep bass is not an issue. Will try and have listen in Fla.
In my room, I estimate the -6dB point of my X3s is around 35Hz. That’s with about 3’ between the speakers rears and the wall. The X3 specs are misleading because the woofers are quoted as 4.5” units, but that’s their actual cone diameter. Most manufacturer’s claimed woofer sizes are the diameter of the entire driver to include the surround and frame. So the “4.5 inch” Børresen units would actually be considered 5.5 or 6” woofers by typical convention. For example, the “7 inch” Seas woofers in my Tyler standmounts have only a 1” larger diameter than the Borresen units. One also has to consider that a woofer can create deep, powerful bass with either surface area or cone excursion. The Børresens have a good amount of linear excursion for their size. I would say they produce at least as much bass output as a typical medium floorstander fitted with either a single 10” woofer or two 6.5” woofers. The bass extension is plenty low for most music.
Regarding your somewhat vintage 801s, they perform really well on paper, arguably better than the newest 800 series. They were certainly more linear (though linearity isn’t everything), and it seems many prefer the older 800s to the newest line. IME, it’s not uncommon for a good 25-year-old design to compete well against newer models, adjusting for inflation (and then some). I haven’t heard your speakers so cannot say whether speakers like the X3s would be a worthy upgrade if an upgrade at all. I have auditioned a couple of the D4 800 series B&Ws, compared to those, I think the X3s give them a run for the money. I think B&W’s current diamond tweeter produces a hair more extension on top, but the Børresen tweeter is completely non-fatiguing and equally “fast.” I find the midrange sounds pretty similar between the two brands. Both manage nice bass definition as well. The D4 series might be the preferable choice if wall proximity is a concern.
But truthfully, if you were to go out and audition half a dozen options between $10 and $15K/pair, and conclude you should just keep what you have, that wouldn’t surprise me at all.
I guess a more general question might be are speakers today (>$15k) better than their 25 year old equivalents?
Some are, some aren't. I still use older speakers - Wilson, and Vandersteen and ML CLS that perform very well and I have heard and respect original Quads within their limitations. Very hard to assess speakers at a dealer in a totally different system than yours and be sure they will sound better. The speakers you have are very good and it would be rolling very expensive dice to shell out for something that sounded good to you on the mainland in a totally different room and system. Hope you make the right decision though.
For your list of musical genres (and all for that matter) and the playback characteristics you mentioned, no doubt that Legacy Audio's Aeris speaker with Wavelet v2 should be on your list. I've heard the 3 speaker models you've listened play a wide variety of music in several settings. I would still Aeris for what you are looking for. I owned them for a bit over two years and they handle everything you are looking for and more (IMHO).
Listen to the Yamaha NS-5000 from the world's largest producer of musical instruments. All three drivers are the same material so integration is seamless for your chamber music.
Unless human ears are redesigned the only change the industry is making is less for more. Practicality must be balanced with imperative. We drove 250 miles to hear speakers. We paid to have them shipped that 250 miles.
If you need something smaller requiring less power try the TAD ME1.
A few days ago I took the opportunity to listen to a dSC > Burmester (hybrid) > Magico S system, and it was exceptionally good. Musical, and not fatiguing - among the very best digital SQ I have ever heard. I tend to listen to vinyl, and this system sounded that good...
So I agree with the earlier comments stating that the Magico speakers are accurate and extremely revealing (compare to many other brands of speakers), so your font-end needs to be up to the task.
You will hear it all, the good and the bad. Isn't that what generations of audiophiles have been asking for from manufacturers?
My pick would be Joseph Audio Perl. Kharmas are also dynamic with a good authority. Dynaudio confidence 50 should be also very good. I would look YG or Rockport over Wilson or BW. Later brands looks beautiful but the sound never moved me.
@OP There are a lot of used Wilson speakers around because people upgrade to newer Wilsons.
On B&W's - there's no guarantee you will like the latest generation better - they are certainly not a speaker I would choose for chamber music.
Magico A5s are worth listening to - more evenly balanced that D4 B&Ws but somewhat similar in character.
Personally, I would prefer the Sasha DAW but, while the thread is not about digital, I would not compromise the budget for a digital front end upgrade because, especially with more modern speakers, you are really going to need it.
In fact, I would suggest looking at that before changing speakers at all.
Absolutely.... your kids will sell it for peanuts when you die anyway! Enjoy now. It's like having a classic car you don't drive. Why save it for the next guy?
I own the X-3's in White....Beautiful, musical and NEVER fatiguing....but very detailed and life like...If yo like the Live experience, they're hard to beat...I want to sell mine (mint) and move up the Borresen line. These people have Sound Down to an art!
re: resale - these are very expensive speakers. I would imagine some of the buyers just have money and "no ears". So they get bored eventually and tried to move them out of their living room and switch back to the soundbar
One consideration I would add is resale. These could be my last set of speakers.
Or perhaps not. A more esoteric brand of speaker will be harder to shift. I'm inclined to stick with a better know brand. When I throw that into the mix it favors something like the 802 D4.
On resale there seem to be a ton of used Sashas and Wilsons in general - why is that- because they sell a lot of them, hence more for resale?
Let me offer up another thought. The fellow who designed many of the best technologies and speakers at B&W is Laurence Dickie. After leaving B&W he continued to develop and improve upon many of the technologies he had pioneered at B&W. He founded Vivid Audio with a partner and continued this upward trajection of speaker design. The Vivid Audio line of speakers is, in a manner of speaking, what B&W could have become. You should experience what Vivid Audio has to offer. If you like your B&Ws I have a feeling you'll find the Vivid speakers exactly what you're looking for.
@ozzy62there is a difference between suggesting what might be a good fit and the other one I criticized. But one can always argue both ways, that I am suggesting X because it's the best fit for OP, not because I love it or I am selling one right now.
I stay away from suggesting what I love for this exact reason, it's too biased. There are enough objective criteria, I'd leave the subjective out of it. The OP clearly doesn't know 95 out of a 100 brands (like most of us), to me it's wild to start throwing brand names into the mix, when he has preferences. And I could go on and on...
If one reads the specifics the OP is looking for, then "X" might be a good fit. Even if the person suggesting it owns "X".
Now suggesting "X" only because you own it and love it, is not helpful. If I say I want a speaker that will shine with a 4 watt tube amp, don't tell me your Wilson Audio Alexx is the one I should buy.
when recommendations become this specific, it gets confusing. It's "I have X, I love X, you should buy X" territory which is not a useful context the OP can rely on.
But what do I know, I have never owned a 3K+ speaker, cancel me
+1 for Rockports. I had the (daughter won't let me sell them) B and W 801 Matrix anniversary model powered by a Krell KSA 150 for 30 years. I then moved to Wilson Sasha 2s, but could never get them to a sound I could live with. I now have Rockports and I love them. The sound is very balanced and musical. They also continue to resolve at greater and greater levels as I improve how they are fed. I am not motivated to replace them.
If I were in your shoes, I would be looking at pre-owned (5-10 years old). You can still make a big jump with technology and get a great used speaker in the $15-$25k range that once retailed for $40-$50k. Magico, Focal, Rockport, YG, etc. Take your time, read the forums and reviews.
Yes I understand your concerns which are all very valid, but changing speakers is always a challenge and more so if a home demonstration is not possible.
But, nothing venture nothing gain.
Audio shows have their limitations in assessing different speakers for all sorts of well known reasons. Finding ones that have the right synergy with your existing system is also a key consideration.
I am on my third pair of YG speakers, namely Hailey Reference 2.2 , which I consider to be outstanding but well above your price range. A used pair of Carmels could be an option if you like their sound.
I was attracted to YG by a review of the Carmel 1s a long time ago and I paid my first visit to Munich specifically to hear them. The room YG had for that show was excellent and their sound confirmed what I had read.
In my experience audio components all have distinct characteristics to their sound and all my three pairs of YGs have reproduced and brought out their differences and nuances because of their inherent and first class neutrality.
Going to one of the shows mentioned should give you an opportunity to assess different options and find some that appeal to you. Careful reading of review, ie reading between the lines, can often provide the additional insights to supplement your show listening experiences.
In my experience it is a journey worth making as long as you do your homework and take your time. It is one that can bring significant rewards
I think you can definitely improve on your old B&Ws. But let's appreciate that they gave you decades worth of enjoyment! Best bet is to find a good semi-local dealer and see if you can listen to some options for yourself. Then see if you can try the ones you like best in your own home for a while.
I’ve been able to compare Joseph Audio speakers to B&W over the years and found the JA speakers to be superior in every way. They disappear better, throw off a more expanded and believable 3D soundstage, and they provide all the detail of the B&Ws but just do it in a more “natural” way is best I can describe it. This is to say if you can demo JA speakers I think it would be very worthwhile. For reference I compared the JA RM25si to the 803N back in the day and more recently the original Pulsar to the 805 D3. Best of luck.
Check the Dali Epikore line. New model is priced at $40K per pair. I have spent time with the $60K Epikore 11 and it is one of the most effortlessly natural sounding speakers I have heard. I am very familiar with B&W 802 D4, Focal Sopra, Utopia Scala EVO, Wilson Sasha DAW…all have their strengths, but the Epikore 11 is the whole package. The price is largely due to its huge size…the cabinet is much bigger than the others I named. The new model is reduced to 2 8” woofers from 4 per speaker.
My guess is OP was meaning "worried" but somehow ended up with "afraid".
@ritter06, yes, worry is always on the back of mind, however much auditioning/research you have done. It took me 2.5 years and 2 AXPONA shows to finalize my current speakers. So, don't worry - and as others have suggested, try to listen to as many loudspeakers as you can, read up, reach out to folks (not reviewers) who own the speakers you might be leaning towards, etc and you should be good. Have fun during auditioning.
And the most important thing - even if you purchase the world's best speakers there will ALWAYS be people who would say, you should have gone with X rather than Y. Learn to ignore such comments and you should be happy with the new loudspeakers for another 25-30 years. Good luck.
The older b&w speakers were really nice and filled the room very comfortably. Older speakers have value if they’re in good condition and it sounds like you’ve done some things to yours thank you so much to make them really nice.
New speakers are different these days and require absolute perfection with all the components. I have older b&w speakers and they are comfortable to listen to.
I don’t like all these new creations that seem to say you’ve gotta do all this stuff to make sure they reach their full potential. Thats not how it should be.
The industry is changing and it’s quite impractical for anyone to listen to many speakers. It’s unfortunate they require dealers to buy the speakers before they sell them. The whole means of distributing nice speakers is problematic.
I'm running a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers with a Krell KSA 300S amp. They were about $9000 in the mid 90's. I've been to 3 audio shows and I've found that my system holds up to pretty much anything costing under 6 figures. I've heard speakers that do one thing or another better than my Thiels but I haven't heard anything that would blow them away until the price gets into the stratosphere. A good example of a speaker that is clearly above what I own is the MBL 101E MkII. They are around $90K but if you get a chance you should hear them to see what is possible.
If you can swing it I would recommend going to an audio show to get a broad overview of what is available. The Capital Audio Fest is coming up in November and it would be an excellent way to hear what's available and narrow down the choices.
The speakers that have impressed me the most are from Rockport, Rosso Fiorentino, Dynaudio, Joseph Audio, Sonus Faber, and Paradigm but that's just my taste. These were all speakers under $50k.
About the fear...... If you spend tens of thousands of dollars on new speakers I'm pretty sure you will like them just fine. At least you're not twitterpating about cables.
To answer your question directly, fear not, for I am confident you will find speaker technology dramatically improved with a proportionate improvement in sound quality over the past 20 years. While there are many similarities in improvements across brands, the fact remains that each brand has its own signature that may provide you personally with vigor to listen for hours or fatigue within minutes. It is a personal preference, but also an associated with system synergy. I try to use a process (based on my experience in quality engineering - everything is a process) as follows:
1: While difficult, define you per personal preferences. Not only musical genera but how you believe a system should sound. It’s hard to articulate but I will give it an attempt. Detailed/clarity or romantic warmth are two camps I have read in this forum before.
2: Define the specific improvements you wish to realize. For example, you current speakers have prominent bass but you desire greater bass detail which I am confident modern designs will provide. Determine if you are willing to sacrifice some prominence for increased detail.
3: Do your homework. Read all the pro reviews of “best” or “choice” speakers. Match reviews with your preferences. Look for similarities and differences in opinions between reviews on the same model.
4: Make a top 3-5 list. Audition for an adequate amount of time to really explore if the sound is for you at a good dealer. Question the dealer on system synergy. Determine if they will allow home audition. Not always feasible with large floor standers. Determine return policies.
5: Open your wallet after approval of your significant other.
Others have made good recommendations. I will add my personal preference for you to consider - Vivid. Designed by Laurence Dickey, a name you should be familiar with. He designed the B&W Nautilus. Vivid designs are a more modern application of Nautilus technology. I use the Vivid Giya G3. Call GTT Audio in NJ. See article below. Good luck. Sorry if I stated the obvious in the approach to use and if I was pontificating. The latter is an issue I am working on.
I second the suggestion for Focal speakers. They are great all-rounds and have the ability reproduce the wide variety of music you like. With your biamping, they would sound great. Great deals on the used market. As others have said, you should go listen alot, but very mindful the the amplification. IMO, Focal respond to different sources.
I moved from a house with a large listening room to a much smaller condominium ( I think there was a divorce or something in there). The 801’s are in a close if not nearfield position and never sounded better (testament to the great concrete build quality).
Another move to a larger condo and listening room ( 18’ x 20’) is on track by the end of the year.
I will try the 801’s first in the new place first but I like the idea of new speakers in there. WAF not an issue btw.
Hello ritter06! If you like your speakers, don't be in a hurry to change them. I do agree that Legacy speakers are excellent, if they will fit in your space. Most of them are on the large side. They do make a smallish one. Here's an easy & cheap way to evaluate your existing speakers. I assume you have serious speaker cables. Get some garden variety 14 gauge zip cord the same length as your speaker cables. (You can make extension cords for your power tools later on.) Play your favorite music on your system without any changes. Turn off the power amps. Now swap your speaker cables for the zip cords. Listen to the same music thru the zip cords. Is the sound noticibly less pleasant with the zip cords in place? If YES, your speakers are detailed enough for you to hear improvements made elsewhere in the system. If the sound is about the same, go ahead and replace your speakers with something nice. Legacy, Golden Ear, etc. I have recently replaced some excellent Linkwitz speakers with the Magnepan LRS+ and given up dynamics for detail and delicacy. I recommend you use the GR crossover mods and subwoofers from 80 - 100 Hz down. I have the original LRS (modified) also. I listen to a lot of singer/songwriter music and music from different cultural groups. Happy Listening!
I haven't heard an american-made speaker yet that I like not legacy not Wilson not any the European speakers are much better like monitor audio proac audio vector and Boressen.
I’d keep your current speakers and get another pair that are really different but can be driven by your current amps. If you listen to a lot of acoustic music and jazz, Maggie’s might be interesting. Then you can swap ever once in a while to scratch the itch for something different.
Fear...surprise...and an almost fanatical devotion to B&W.
No surprise, actually. There’s a reason (or many reasons) that B&W have been the standard monitors for DGG and a host of other premiere recording labels for decades. The 801s are going to be hard to beat. But then, as has been said already, taste in speakers is highly personal.
FWIW (which won’t be much), I have never found a speaker I prefer to my Scientific Fidelity Teslas, built in 1992 and restored twice since by Millersound. I’ve had B&Ws in my listening room for a week; own Von Schweikert VR4 Jrs, PSB Synchrony Ones, Revel F208s, a pair of Maggies.... I’ve also auditioned various others, again in my own space. A friend writes reviews for Stereophile, and I’ve heard some amazing things at his place (Vivid Giyas; MBL Radialstrahlers). But I always come back to the Teslas.
Your rig must sound superb. Maybe its time to return to the music; that’s what the tools are for.
The problem with beryllium is is very bright and hard sounding I've listened to the paradigm and I couldn't sit there for more than 2 minutes The voice and symbols were very bright and edgy sounding The monitor audio platinum are much better.
Out of those three the Boressen x 3 is the best one you should also consider the monitor audio platinum series which I believe is even better than the Boressen.
The new textreme material that speakers are made out of seem to be lighter weight more responsive and have less distortion.i think this is the main difference between old and new.maybe some capiticor upgrade if the manufacture puts that in. So look for speaker made of textreme cones.it has the coefficient right below berelliym.the is a great review by one of the eminence engineers on u tube about their new horn with that material.enjoy the hunt and the music.paradigm is the only speaker i know of that has a berillium midrange beryllium other than some old yamaha 1000 and pioneere tad there are a few horns with beryllium.
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