I have noticed since 2021 and 2022, when every gear went up in price and never went down. In 2022-2023, I noticed much less sales across the board. Everywhere. Even restaurants in 2024 have much less people than before. Restaurants that used to have a wait time of 30-45 minutes now are barely filled.
Generally speaking, people don't even have enough money for groceries let alone electronic gear. This article comes as no surprise and people are more savvy than ever. Who wants to pay 50% extra to the dealer...
Adjusted for inflation, restaurant sales declined 1.3% in 2024 vs 2023. 2023 sales were up 5% over 2022 and 2022 sales were up 4% over 2021.The sky isn’t falling.
Many countries in the world experienced economic impact from Covid-19 and the pandemic after effects that occurred. Pew research indicates 44 advanced economies experienced a rise in consumer prices. Western democracies took a bit hit (maybe unjustly) since incumbents lost leadership positions. How much we forget...
Cannot confirm but someone mentioned to me that since the pandemic almost every national election has resulted in changes due to the aftermath.
The aftermath of the pandemic is still being felt all over the globe economically. Makes sense. But nobody seems to want to talk about that. Political slogans won’t do it. It’s a global not a US thing.
Very simple: Denon, Marantz, Klipsch, and other legacy audio brands are facing potential disappearance by 2025 due to declining sales. The market for home theater products has been challenging, with production moving overseas and competition from advanced soundbars.
These brands are owned by Masimo, which is experiencing financial difficulties partly due to legal battles with Apple. The shift in consumer preferences towards more affordable and compact audio solutions has significantly impacted these traditional brands.
FYI: Denon, Marantz, and Klipsch are implementing several strategies to boost sales:
1. Product Innovation: They are focusing on integrating advanced technologies like Dirac Live for room correction in their products, enhancing sound quality and user experience.
2. Targeting High-End Market: These brands are appealing to the high-end market by leveraging their legacy and reputation for quality, focusing on premium products that cater to audiophiles.
3. Aesthetic Appeal: Understanding the importance of aesthetics, they are designing products that not only sound good but also look appealing to attract consumers who value design.
These strategies aim to address changing consumer preferences and maintain their market presence.
Andrew Robinson (hate him if you want to) recently reviewed Marantz's new line of speakers and streaming integrateds for the Gen Z crowd (see other contentious thread on that) and pointed out the poor and light weight build quality of it. Performance was nothing to write home about either and they're still asking a "Marantz" price for it.
Instant increase in sales... Meters, the bigger the better. They don't have to be accurate, just moving. Who cares about driving 2-3 Ohm loads, as long as it's got meters.
While it's not impossible that major legacy brands could fold, we have to be careful of internet click-bait. The fact that Masimo lost money does not mean the brands are failing. I recall when the camera industry was negatively impacted by smart phone cameras and many sites claimed that Nikon, Fuji, etc., were in big trouble and might fail. Some reporting sites didn't even look at the fact that the sale of cameras and photo lenses wasn't the majority of those companies businesses (they had substantial business in the medical field, copying field, etc.). With some smart re-posturing both camera divisions are doing just fine, thank you very much. Let's see what actually happens here.
@nonoise Yes Andrew Robinson is a fraud. Honestly I don't know why anyone would review contemporary Marantz gear in the audiophile category. It's cheap mass produced, mass market stuff
Just my experience..... I live in Cleveland ,Ohio. For at least the last 5 years...We have 1 Audio store, and that is run out of the guys house. He carries very expensive extremely niche brands. Cleveland has a population of 375,00 and regionally its well over 1 million people. We used to have at least a dozen brick and mortar stores, and now 1 out of some guys house.
My point is, at least in my neck of the woods...there is no demand for high end audio, or mid/fi gear. I believe it is a generational problem. I think as us dinosaurs get old and go deaf...there is no one behind us to pick up the slack.
Also all the young people grow up with music on their phones/state of the art ear buds/and blue tooth speakers that blow away what we had, and its so much easier and convenient.
I don't see this changing for the better. High end audio will always be around , but at a much smaller scale. Which will certainly eliminate Audio manufacturers and Audio stores.
The young folks are in the headphone space for the most part. Some of them are slowly moving up to the audiophile headphone space from mass produced gear.
Tomorrow I will be selling a $5-6k headphone amp. I will have no problem selling it since there are a lot of young people pining after top end headphone gear.
I want to use the funds to buy a $10k headphone and that thing is back ordered for a few months (it is catching up now)
krelldog is correct. I live in Cuyahoga Falls OH and have bought audio from that one guy selling audio out of his house. Audiophiles are a very small group IMHO. Maybe krelldog wants to give him a plug?
@krelldogYou mention there’s no demand for high-end audio and mid-fi gear. I am experiencing the same impression but in a different way.
A lot of people over at AVS think all DACs sound the same, all preamps sound the same. And all amps sound the same. Amps in AVR are as good as any external amp. This is not an exaggeration, they really think that. Some make claims such as "I have tried external amplification, no difference from my AVR". No context what amp was tested.
So in a nutshell, a lot of them think everything sounds the same. What about cables? Forget about it, purely snakeoil. The quality and purity of the metal don’t matter. The connectors don’t matter. They all sound the same.
So let me ask you this, in a world where everything sounds the same to these people, how are legacy companies going to thrive? BTW, I don’t think these companies in the discussion are good and worth keeping around.
We have new companies popping up that are extremely talented. Many from Denmark.
@nonoise Yes Andrew Robinson is a fraud. Honestly I don't know why anyone would review contemporary Marantz gear in the audiophile category. It's cheap mass produced, mass market stuff
denon and marantz are long gone. who cares if the name finally disappears from current production materials? klipsh, tho--im surprised they are at risk.
I suspect the audio industry, like many others, and Harley-Davidson comes to mind, are finding the baby boom generation has passed the peak years of spending. As a member of that group, I can say I've accumulated most of what I need/want, and will not be a great customer in the future. The generations coming behind the boomers are smaller, poorer (?) and have different tastes. The book Boom Bust Echo was a good read on this subject.
I went to Tampa audio show right after Covid and I couldn’t believe the prices that people were asking for their gear. I listened to some new speakers that sounded ok, just 2-ways, 1 was $10k and the bigger model was over $30k. My $2k 3-way revel speakers in my living room sounded better than the $10+k speaker and on par with the $30+k speaker. Then I listened to a larger pair of multi-driver floorstanding speakers that sounded pretty good, and a couple of us thought they might be in the $10-$15k range. When we were told they were over $100k, we fell out of our chairs. My new revel BE speakers sound better as do my large Usher speakers that are both < $15k each. The new ps audio fr30 speakers blow these $100k speakers out of the water, so I know that there are manufacturers can still build very good quality stuff for reasonable prices.
In other rooms for example, prices for mbl, Jolida, Borreson, and others seemed their price increases were well within inflation limits.
I’m done with audio shows if all they have is ok/decent stuff for outrageous prices.
I like the ps audio fr 30 they are made of teonix not kapton.i talked to the developer Chris who's father was involved with bohlenger graebener. on my visit to boulder.i highly suggest you take the tour paul was open about his sources and direction. This new material does not stretch and uv does not bother it. I got to see the test lab sound rooms ect. Jbl is making some of thier horns with it. The economy is rough now for the past 4 years. I offer a elective product and many say they can't afford it. In the end it's going to get better.i moved my son last year from Cleveland and was shocked at the lack of brick and morter stores for stero in the rock and roll hall of fame town.enjoy the music and life .it's too short.
@sns....as many well regarded economists have pointed out way too many times for people to ignore but did anyway....
WE pay the tariffs.
Not China, SE Asia, the EU, and any other country that exports goods & FOOD to the US.
This is the legacy of continued cuts in education by primarily conservative representatives to keep and continue working on keeping the general public clueless, even to the point that many have difficulty understanding how to make their own budgets work.
I don’t even want to mention housing and ownership of same.....
Yeah, there’s lots of dirt about.....but how long of a commute is tolerable?
So Masimo Audio now owns Marantz, Denon, Classe, Polk, Bowers and Wilkins, plus Definitive Technology. In my opinion, Marantz and Denon are the clear leaders in home theater processors, plus Bowers and Wikins is a renowned British speaker manufacturer. Masimo clearly intends to spin off its consumer audio division.
Lets not forget that several "British" brands are now controlled by China - I am including KEF and Quad in this list.
SME and Garrard are owned by the Cadence Group, along with Crystal Cable and Spendor loudspeakers.
This of course is nothing compared to the realignments in the car industry. It is quite illuminating when Mercedes buys electric vehicle know-how from China - a real reversal!
It's amazing that denial, ignorance, pettiness and even wishing for a human to die finds its way into a supposedly hi-end audio forum. How sad we have become. Thank God the people have spoken!
Let’s stop the Politics right now. I go to sites likes to escape it.
The long term decline of Audio has been going on for a few decades. We are seeing and another step in the extinction.
Apple makes more money on Ear Buds than the entire commercial speaker market.
When my kids went to college 20 years ago I started talking with them about what kind of system to get them for their dorm rooms. They looked at me like I was crazy. Their iPods and earbuds were all they, and anyone else in their dorms, wanted.
Meanwhile my contemporaries, all of whom cared very much about our mid Fi systems when we were young, were doing the same thing. In my little social circle of the planet I am the only person who cares about audio.
The consolidation and purchase of many brands by conglomerates that are uninterested in audio, such as Massimo, is accelerating the demise. There is a lot of hedge fund money looking to buy stuff and uninterested in managing what they buy.
What I don’t understand in this thread is the focus on the pandemic as the culprit. The pandemic was actually good for audio. People were stuck at home, and many discovered their systems that they hadn’t turned on for years. The repair shops were jammed as people discovered their components had atrophied from disuse. Sales of audio equipment jumped. Perhaps that may have got the hedge funds attention.
It was a blip. The long term factors just aren’t in our favor. The ultra high end is pursuing the customers with Elon Musk sized bank accounts. The mid Fi companies don’t know what to do. Crank out cheaply made junk at grossly inflated prices and hope to dupe some people who are Elon wannabes? Or try to make low cost gear to sell to people who increasingly don’t give a hoot? The mid fis are deers in the headlights and in a few years will be audio roadkill.
Let’s enjoy our systems while we can, but realize that we are dinosaurs
The post from avsjerry needs to be taken down because it’s false info (actually lies) and it’s not valid for this thread.
You can still get great sounding gear, even some of the best gear at reasonable prices. Usher speakers have always competed with the best for a fraction of the cost. At rmaf years ago, my wife and I boiled down the purchase of 2 speakers: the $100k Raidho or the Revel Salon2 for $20k. We liked the sound of the Revel better.
Look at any of the PS Audio speakers, they punch way above others for a fraction of the cost, same goes for their electronics.
Kids will never buy into the high priced audio goods for a number of reasons, they can’t afford it, they like their AirPods and beats, and they would rather spend a large sum of money on a Porsche/other sports car. I have 2 kids that grew up having access to my nice audio systems and they spend their money on cars.
When the baby boomers are gone, so will be the higher up audio manufacturers, unless the kids that get a large inheritance, turn to audio purchases but I doubt it
Watching the trends, I have come to believe that high end audio is dying simply because of the progression of time. Music has changed, and so has the way people listen to it. Very few people today want or need a space hogging, dedicated audio system in their domicile, be it an apartment, or, in many cases, their parent's basement. As others have noted, many just don't have the discretionary funds to invest in expensive gear. Their device of choice for listening to music can be carried in their pocket, and compact wireless speakers with acceptable sound quality can put hassle free music in any room in their abode. Most don't own any music in physical format. Their library, if they even have one, resides in the 'cloud' or they stream it from providers.
The hobby we love has just become a victim of the changing times. All good things eventually come to an end, but, who knows. Maybe in the future, the 'retro bug' will kick in on a new generation, and our gear will be dusted off, refurbished, and given another go, probably at prices higher than we paid for it!
again, look at the details. Well over a billion dollar in audiophile speaker sales alone annually. That means close to a million speakers a year sold.
It's both good and bad, small enough to dismiss, big enough to support a lot of companies, it's yes, it's a blip, less than 0.1% of the consumers of Europe and the US. But I would approach it from the music side: people listen to more music and not less. Mostly headsets, yes, but again, one out of 10 headset buyers will be curious about hifi. Every generation will come to age eventually when they will jump on the wagon
The money is one thing but yesteryears potential audiophiles (and many other potential market builders) have all run aground in the video gaming and betting markets. Just saying.
@nonoise Yes Andrew Robinson is a fraud. Honestly I don't know why anyone would review contemporary Marantz gear in the audiophile category. It's cheap mass produced, mass market stuff
Let's see. My Marantz Ruby SACD player weighs in at 30#! The build quality is superb. Not sure what Marantz gear you have taken apart recently to examine but you could not be more off the mark with this ridiculous comment.
Companies, especially dealers contributed to the decline of the audio industry. Dealers most of them don’t have the interest to entertain young people to get into this hobby. They want money right away, you have to plant to harvest.Online stores are good for experience audiophile not for newbie .Yes pricing contributed too.
Corelli I agree with you. Marantz SA 10 and Ruby sacd players will show they are not mass produced and they are well built and design. They sound amazing too.Only problem Marantz don’t have support post warranty.Now that Ken is gone , probably they won’t be as good.This 2 units belong to hi end category. Maybe the one that was reviewed is not.
Apple makes more money on Ear Buds than the entire commercial speaker market.
Is this true or were you illiterating our senescence and encouraging obsolescence?
Just maybe high end hifi will make a come back as, despite the apple watch, the luxury watch world has life anew.
The tonic of music is a given. There’s that too.
Often I see a very nice car inside a mall, airport or store. Imagine if audio displays were scattered about in such a way. Once music is heard in such an indelible way the hook goes in.
As long as our ears remain "analog" we will need good speakers and amps to move air around (and the cables to connect them).
This audio thing is a moving target. Those manfacturers who put their fingers on the pulse and fully resonant with the end user will be okay. Unless, of course, they do something incredible stupid. Which could happen.
Going to be interesting to see what happens. Hope the legacy brands stick around for a couple of more decades, or until to break my neck on my 90th birthday -- pole vaulting. Which ever comes first.
I think many people didn't realize the interconnected nature of the global economy, especially when it came to small parts/component suppliers and how a simple shutdown can cause slowdowns/shutdowns further up the pipeline. Then while everyone was stuck at home with $ they couldn't spend, they went on shopping sprees, renovation sprees, home-buying sprees, etc. and demand outpaced supply which caused prices to skyrocket on top of the cost implications of the strained supply chain of "just in time" stocking. Years later, most of the world outside of the US is still climbing out of the Covid hole. Supply chains, retailers and manufacturers are "finally" getting back to "normal" but the prices are never going to return to the pre-Covid days. Regardless of what any politician tells you. The only way we get prices down to "back in the day" levels is a deep recession or depression. Which, I don't think anyone wants here. Whether some hi-fi brands disappear or not as consolidation continues, I think the mid-fi market of products will grow while you still have a few companies making high-end, high-priced gear for the 1%, many of us will make do with "reasonably" priced $1-2K integrated amps or go the used route as the older hi-fi enthusiasts' gear is put up for sale by a widow or family estate.
But again, as we all know, none of us really know what will happen 6 months from now let alone 1 or 2 years from now.
Having worked in the industry for 30 plus year, the writing of this demise really started in the 80's. The audio market started the transition then from shopping for each and every component (as this group still does), to buying pre-packaged all-in-one systems. The masses didn't care enough about the quality of sound and just wanted a simple buying experience. Then things shrunk to mini bookshelf systems and boom boxes. Fast forward, and now most get their music off their phones. I don't know what the actual percentage was, but I would guess somewhere between 50-70% of homes (through the 70's), had some sort of stereo system with a "record player" in their home. Now I would bet that number is way less than 25% of anything that resembles a stereo system. The audio manufactures (mainstream), dug themselves into this mess, and I doubt it will ever change. With the reduction in sales, it is no wonder brands are experiencing financial hardship. Look at how many of the main stream names of the 70's and 80's are gone. Hopefully the industry can survive, but what has started is likely to be the trend of the future.
Restaurants are absolutely packed where I live. It amazes me how much people spend eating out and on bar tabs these days. I couldn’t do that when I was their age unless I wanted to be a slave to the CC companies.
IMO, below is the number one reason for these companies struggle as noted in the article.
"The changing consumer market"
My kids have very little interest in large speakers and components. Even surround sound systems are not in vogue now and sound bars etc are much more common. The audiophile crowd has small manufacturers to turn to like never before and also a big selection of used equipment. Just a tough market except for super high end equipment being sold in lesser qty’s. Those that can afford this will buy what they want without price constraints so there are margins to be had.
I see companies like schit, cambridge and others finding a niche in the midfi market with small equipment that takes up less space and has minimal controls.
Your traditional recievers, components etc may be becoming a thing of the past.
I seriously doubt the world will come to an end in 2025 and I doubt that all the brands mentioned will come to an end in 2025 either. BUT, as we age out, there are going to be less and less people who care quality sound and quality build. Home theater is where the money is and it is getting ing in the tooth.
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