More potential bad news for some big names...
Here in the UK the younger generation are being battered by high prices for flats and houses and other cost of living pressures. New and recently built property has got steadily smaller so space is at a premium. The high end is coping but for how long is difficult to predict. As Clinton famously said "It.s the economy stupid" |
Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken this long for some of the big names to be in big trouble. Every time I go to an audio show, I'm amazed at the high prices of gear and wonder how many brands can stay in business. I have a household income of about $150K and have no big debt (house and cars paid off over 12 years now), but I balk at spending the amounts asked for some of this gear. I'm sure most young people are just not able to put out the cash for this stuff when many see home ownership as nearly unobtainable. |
1) High end audio has always been a niche market. I've been buying high end gear for 45 years and I've rarely found any of my friends or acquaintences who were into the hobby like I was. Also, there is no similarity between Apple earbuds and the enthusiast audio market. Apple is a mass market company. Denon and Marantz are the proverbial fly on the elephant's butt. 2) High end audio has been dying ever since I entered the hobby. Oh, wait, it's bigger than it has ever been.... 3) New companies have been entering the market and established companies are expanding their product lines. This is not indicative of a dying industry. Look at the Music Direct catalog and tell me that the industry is shrinking and dying. 4) The ultra high end is exploding. We may sneer at speakers and amplifiers that cost $100K but someone is buying this stuff. 5) The value end of the industry is solid and growing. Schiit, Topping, and SVS are excellent examples of companies that are selling tons of very high quality gear at reasonable prices. 6) The chances of Denon and Marantz disappearing are zero. These companies have the most recognizable brands in the industry, they are selling hundreds of millions of dollars of gear, and they have a strong dealer network. Masimo will sell their audio division for much less than they paid for it but it will survive and prosper. 7) I'm running high end gear from the 90's (Krell and Thiel) and I've been to 3 audio shows. My observation is that the state of the art has not improved much from 30 years ago. I've listend to many systems where the cables cost more than my entire rig and the sound did not equal my setup. 8) This is the golden age of audio. There are lots of very high quality components available for reasonable prices, you can stream millions of titles of high resolution music for an absurdly low monthly price, and there has never been more used luxury gear available. But nevermind, the sky is falling. |
As I contemplate the audio market I am unsure as to why better quality has gotten so expensive. My frame of reference is televisions. If you look at the price history of TVs against their quality and feature history, it is clear that the quality and features have gone way up as the comparative cost has come down. The first color TVs were about $500. Today $500 will buy you a very nice quality and size TV, and inflation has driven the value of the dollar down considerably in that time. Now tell me why audio has not followed that path. Solid state audio equipment should not be mega dollars, I will leave tubes out of the discussion for simplicity of the question. |
This may be a little off topic but I would like to point out. The world has 8 billion people, And from the 1970s to the 2000. The tv brand's were RCA, Toshiba, Panasonic, Quasar, Electrahome, Zenith, Hitachi, and Mitsubishi. Not to mention a number of early MIC brands. So the question I have is with how large the population is now versus then, what drove all the above brands away or to a fraction of what they were? |
It is interesting to me how every commercial has a silver faced 70's era receiver, turntable and speakers in the background. It's considered cool I guess but for looks more than real function. I have a collection of older equipment from the 70's that I still use to this day. All of that stuff is worth 3-4 times what I paid for it. There are also plenty of audio companies trying to capture the retro vibe market with components that have the vintage look. Maybe the younger generation will latch on to that once they get into the working world. I think college kids with a stereo are rare as hens teeth. Polar opposite of my years in school. |
There's not a lot of point to be made discussing what young people today are going to do with their money. Their seniors (you and me) grew up with terrible products and experienced a revelation when they almost accidentally found themselves in a high end audio place. For me it was when a friend and I cruised down to Jacksonville and I heard Dahlquist DQ-10's. Nowadays it is an easy matter to get acceptable audio at low cost, and it's ubiquitous. Also, things are tighter for this generation and the entertainment options broader and widely distributed. How many of us would have gone crazy over audio if we had had computers to play with? We had the opportunity to access audio as an art form, literally. I can see where today's up-and-comers have more things to get involved in, and I imagine some will become audio nuts, but the numbers will be smaller and the days of the revolutionary engineers are probably over. What's out there now is excellent and affordable, making the hobby aspect of it less attractive. One more thing: the quality and diversity of the media. Classical music used to be a widespread thing. Now it is most definitely not, and if you know a young person with any knowledge of such whatsoever of it you are dealing with a music major. That's just one example. Popular music is dominated by low quality artists doing low quality things. And it sells. There are still great recordings made, and the technical abilities are better than ever, but the stuff that makes money, the stuff inputted into it, is mediocre. So who needs fancy equipment when earbuds will do? In the meantime, enjoy what you have and don't worry about everyone else. You can be a niche. It's ok. |
What will the lack of these products do to the used market is the question. Many products are all ready higher than they used to be. I’ve seen Palladium ll monoblocks and Aragon 8008 BB amps, each nearly 30 years old selling for $3k and $2k respectively. That’s simply one example of the used market that I’ve observed that’s truly out of whack. These products were available for less than $2k used when they were 3-4 years old. Now they’re 27 years old and selling for more? I don’t get that!
There was a day that you could spend $2k and acquire a very solid audio product. It’s rare to find a quality product at a great price anymore. Well, at least that’s one thing I’ve noticed. |
I recall Paul McGowan saying that the universe of real HiFi buyers is about 20-25,000 in the US and shrinking. Let's face it the younger generations have little regard for quality and even less regard for bespoke HiFi gear. They are in debt up to their gills and have little discretionary income. They are not keen to own homes, or even cars if you believe the consumer analytics. They don't generally long to be rich like my generation did (I'm 63) and they don't care to be married either. Add to that the quality of the AirPods Max, the Bluetooth boom boxes that sound pretty darn good plus the mid-fi brands being poorly made and you have what we have here today. I don't know how to remedy this, and I don't know anybody who has proffered a good solution. |
@bimmerlover you must be confusing me with someone else |
I was an audiophile in my teens. But, I didn't purchase a pair of serious loudspeakers until I was 40. By then, I had a house, children who were past the toddler stage, and a bit of disposable income. I suspect I am not alone. Give the Gen Z kids time. Chances are at least some of them, 5-10%, will discover what a decent audio rig can do for their music. That's enough to keep the industry afloat, I think. |
On one hand I can see high end audio in decline, on the other I see this as a golden age of audio. Recently I've been reading through some of my 1980-90's era Stereophile mags, fears about the decline of audio existent then just as today. There have always been complaints about the high cost of audio, always plenty of equipment out of reach for many.
And don't forget about the used market, internet gives us easy access, and think about the continuing accumulation of purchases that go onto the used market. I'd like to see some data comparing new sales to used, has to be greatly impacting new sales. I could make an argument higher end audio more affordable than ever. |
I seriously doubt the world will come to an end in 2025 and I doubt that all the brands mentioned will come to an end in 2025 either. BUT, as we age out, there are going to be less and less people who care quality sound and quality build. Home theater is where the money is and it is getting ing in the tooth. |
Restaurants are absolutely packed where I live. It amazes me how much people spend eating out and on bar tabs these days. I couldn’t do that when I was their age unless I wanted to be a slave to the CC companies. IMO, below is the number one reason for these companies struggle as noted in the article. "The changing consumer market"My kids have very little interest in large speakers and components. Even surround sound systems are not in vogue now and sound bars etc are much more common. The audiophile crowd has small manufacturers to turn to like never before and also a big selection of used equipment. Just a tough market except for super high end equipment being sold in lesser qty’s. Those that can afford this will buy what they want without price constraints so there are margins to be had. I see companies like schit, cambridge and others finding a niche in the midfi market with small equipment that takes up less space and has minimal controls. Your traditional recievers, components etc may be becoming a thing of the past. |
Having worked in the industry for 30 plus year, the writing of this demise really started in the 80's. The audio market started the transition then from shopping for each and every component (as this group still does), to buying pre-packaged all-in-one systems. The masses didn't care enough about the quality of sound and just wanted a simple buying experience. Then things shrunk to mini bookshelf systems and boom boxes. Fast forward, and now most get their music off their phones. I don't know what the actual percentage was, but I would guess somewhere between 50-70% of homes (through the 70's), had some sort of stereo system with a "record player" in their home. Now I would bet that number is way less than 25% of anything that resembles a stereo system. The audio manufactures (mainstream), dug themselves into this mess, and I doubt it will ever change. With the reduction in sales, it is no wonder brands are experiencing financial hardship. Look at how many of the main stream names of the 70's and 80's are gone. Hopefully the industry can survive, but what has started is likely to be the trend of the future. |
I think many people didn't realize the interconnected nature of the global economy, especially when it came to small parts/component suppliers and how a simple shutdown can cause slowdowns/shutdowns further up the pipeline. Then while everyone was stuck at home with $ they couldn't spend, they went on shopping sprees, renovation sprees, home-buying sprees, etc. and demand outpaced supply which caused prices to skyrocket on top of the cost implications of the strained supply chain of "just in time" stocking. Years later, most of the world outside of the US is still climbing out of the Covid hole. Supply chains, retailers and manufacturers are "finally" getting back to "normal" but the prices are never going to return to the pre-Covid days. Regardless of what any politician tells you. The only way we get prices down to "back in the day" levels is a deep recession or depression. Which, I don't think anyone wants here. Whether some hi-fi brands disappear or not as consolidation continues, I think the mid-fi market of products will grow while you still have a few companies making high-end, high-priced gear for the 1%, many of us will make do with "reasonably" priced $1-2K integrated amps or go the used route as the older hi-fi enthusiasts' gear is put up for sale by a widow or family estate. But again, as we all know, none of us really know what will happen 6 months from now let alone 1 or 2 years from now. |
As long as our ears remain "analog" we will need good speakers and amps to move air around (and the cables to connect them). This audio thing is a moving target. Those manfacturers who put their fingers on the pulse and fully resonant with the end user will be okay. Unless, of course, they do something incredible stupid. Which could happen. Going to be interesting to see what happens. Hope the legacy brands stick around for a couple of more decades, or until to break my neck on my 90th birthday -- pole vaulting. Which ever comes first. |
Is this true or were you illiterating our senescence and encouraging obsolescence? Just maybe high end hifi will make a come back as, despite the apple watch, the luxury watch world has life anew. The tonic of music is a given. There’s that too. Often I see a very nice car inside a mall, airport or store. Imagine if audio displays were scattered about in such a way. Once music is heard in such an indelible way the hook goes in.
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Corelli I agree with you. Marantz SA 10 and Ruby sacd players will show they are not mass produced and they are well built and design. They sound amazing too.Only problem Marantz don’t have support post warranty.Now that Ken is gone , probably they won’t be as good.This 2 units belong to hi end category. Maybe the one that was reviewed is not. |
Companies, especially dealers contributed to the decline of the audio industry. Dealers most of them don’t have the interest to entertain young people to get into this hobby. They want money right away, you have to plant to harvest.Online stores are good for experience audiophile not for newbie .Yes pricing contributed too. |
grislybutter2,991 posts @nonoise Yes Andrew Robinson is a fraud. Honestly I don't know why anyone would review contemporary Marantz gear in the audiophile category. It's cheap mass produced, mass market stuff
Let's see. My Marantz Ruby SACD player weighs in at 30#! The build quality is superb. Not sure what Marantz gear you have taken apart recently to examine but you could not be more off the mark with this ridiculous comment. |
again, look at the details. Well over a billion dollar in audiophile speaker sales alone annually. That means close to a million speakers a year sold. It's both good and bad, small enough to dismiss, big enough to support a lot of companies, it's yes, it's a blip, less than 0.1% of the consumers of Europe and the US. But I would approach it from the music side: people listen to more music and not less. Mostly headsets, yes, but again, one out of 10 headset buyers will be curious about hifi. Every generation will come to age eventually when they will jump on the wagon |
Watching the trends, I have come to believe that high end audio is dying simply because of the progression of time. Music has changed, and so has the way people listen to it. Very few people today want or need a space hogging, dedicated audio system in their domicile, be it an apartment, or, in many cases, their parent's basement. As others have noted, many just don't have the discretionary funds to invest in expensive gear. Their device of choice for listening to music can be carried in their pocket, and compact wireless speakers with acceptable sound quality can put hassle free music in any room in their abode. Most don't own any music in physical format. Their library, if they even have one, resides in the 'cloud' or they stream it from providers. The hobby we love has just become a victim of the changing times. All good things eventually come to an end, but, who knows. Maybe in the future, the 'retro bug' will kick in on a new generation, and our gear will be dusted off, refurbished, and given another go, probably at prices higher than we paid for it! |
The post from avsjerry needs to be taken down because it’s false info (actually lies) and it’s not valid for this thread. Look at any of the PS Audio speakers, they punch way above others for a fraction of the cost, same goes for their electronics. Kids will never buy into the high priced audio goods for a number of reasons, they can’t afford it, they like their AirPods and beats, and they would rather spend a large sum of money on a Porsche/other sports car. I have 2 kids that grew up having access to my nice audio systems and they spend their money on cars. When the baby boomers are gone, so will be the higher up audio manufacturers, unless the kids that get a large inheritance, turn to audio purchases but I doubt it |
@mahler123 +1 |
Let’s stop the Politics right now. I go to sites likes to escape it. The long term decline of Audio has been going on for a few decades. We are seeing and another step in the extinction. Apple makes more money on Ear Buds than the entire commercial speaker market. When my kids went to college 20 years ago I started talking with them about what kind of system to get them for their dorm rooms. They looked at me like I was crazy. Their iPods and earbuds were all they, and anyone else in their dorms, wanted. Meanwhile my contemporaries, all of whom cared very much about our mid Fi systems when we were young, were doing the same thing. In my little social circle of the planet I am the only person who cares about audio. The consolidation and purchase of many brands by conglomerates that are uninterested in audio, such as Massimo, is accelerating the demise. There is a lot of hedge fund money looking to buy stuff and uninterested in managing what they buy. Let’s enjoy our systems while we can, but realize that we are dinosaurs |
So Masimo Audio now owns Marantz, Denon, Classe, Polk, Bowers and Wilkins, plus Definitive Technology. In my opinion, Marantz and Denon are the clear leaders in home theater processors, plus Bowers and Wikins is a renowned British speaker manufacturer. Masimo clearly intends to spin off its consumer audio division. Lets not forget that several "British" brands are now controlled by China - I am including KEF and Quad in this list. SME and Garrard are owned by the Cadence Group, along with Crystal Cable and Spendor loudspeakers. This of course is nothing compared to the realignments in the car industry. It is quite illuminating when Mercedes buys electric vehicle know-how from China - a real reversal! |
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I like the ps audio fr 30 they are made of teonix not kapton.i talked to the developer Chris who's father was involved with bohlenger graebener. on my visit to boulder.i highly suggest you take the tour paul was open about his sources and direction. This new material does not stretch and uv does not bother it. I got to see the test lab sound rooms ect. Jbl is making some of thier horns with it. The economy is rough now for the past 4 years. I offer a elective product and many say they can't afford it. In the end it's going to get better.i moved my son last year from Cleveland and was shocked at the lack of brick and morter stores for stero in the rock and roll hall of fame town.enjoy the music and life .it's too short. |
I went to Tampa audio show right after Covid and I couldn’t believe the prices that people were asking for their gear. I listened to some new speakers that sounded ok, just 2-ways, 1 was $10k and the bigger model was over $30k. My $2k 3-way revel speakers in my living room sounded better than the $10+k speaker and on par with the $30+k speaker. Then I listened to a larger pair of multi-driver floorstanding speakers that sounded pretty good, and a couple of us thought they might be in the $10-$15k range. When we were told they were over $100k, we fell out of our chairs. My new revel BE speakers sound better as do my large Usher speakers that are both < $15k each. The new ps audio fr30 speakers blow these $100k speakers out of the water, so I know that there are manufacturers can still build very good quality stuff for reasonable prices. I’m done with audio shows if all they have is ok/decent stuff for outrageous prices. |
The Masimo brands will be on the block in the next few months if not sooner now that Masimo is controlled by Politan. As with McIntosh and SF, any company that is controlled by private equity. It's a question of when rather than if. There is a future for at least some of these companies if they can return to stable ownership and management. The Masimo experience was a disaster, as are most cases of highly unrelated diversification. |
I suspect the audio industry, like many others, and Harley-Davidson comes to mind, are finding the baby boom generation has passed the peak years of spending. As a member of that group, I can say I've accumulated most of what I need/want, and will not be a great customer in the future. The generations coming behind the boomers are smaller, poorer (?) and have different tastes. The book Boom Bust Echo was a good read on this subject. |
Nonsense. |
I have never been to his house/store. I've never met him, and have nothing to say positive or negative. His store- Don Better Audio His brands are very niche, and he's retail + tax kinda guy. I do know a couple people that have bought from him. They had no complaints, and all agreed he's very knowledgeable. |
@krelldog You mention there’s no demand for high-end audio and mid-fi gear. I am experiencing the same impression but in a different way. A lot of people over at AVS think all DACs sound the same, all preamps sound the same. And all amps sound the same. Amps in AVR are as good as any external amp. This is not an exaggeration, they really think that. Some make claims such as "I have tried external amplification, no difference from my AVR". No context what amp was tested. So in a nutshell, a lot of them think everything sounds the same. What about cables? Forget about it, purely snakeoil. The quality and purity of the metal don’t matter. The connectors don’t matter. They all sound the same. So let me ask you this, in a world where everything sounds the same to these people, how are legacy companies going to thrive? BTW, I don’t think these companies in the discussion are good and worth keeping around. We have new companies popping up that are extremely talented. Many from Denmark. |
