Noticing this thread again. Let me say categorically high quality contemporary gear and fatigue = no. Fatigue in the past was common. In general, in all but budget gear or really incompatible gear no fatigue should never happen. Natural and unfatiguing is the rule of good gear these days.
Is it me or new audio gear is too perfect and give ear fatigue?
Since getting back into the hobby during covid I’ve really enjoyed listening to music vs. bluetooth low quality speakers. Since listening to my Nautilus 803 speakers with old Yamaha Amps (MX1, MX1000) they’ve been sweet sounding and warm.
A lot of people have said the new equipment is near perfect chasing specs, sounding bright and causing ear fatigue.
Curious if people feel the same?
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Obviously, since you quoted my prior post, you can imagine I don't agree with this. I use recordings I made as reference; I know what they should sound like- I was there at the recording session. The Topping D90SE is quite neutral and does female voices just fine. |
Yes, burn-in can reduce initial apparent brightness over time. Yes, the latest crop of tube amps (as a group) are less warm & syrupy sounding. Yes, system-matching has a large effect on bright vs not-bright sound (brightness can be added or subtracted by canny component choices & matching). But I’m a little surprised that no one here touched on a very relevant fact of audio life: the ever-present RESOLUTION vs MUSICALITY debate. This takes place in two intersecting spheres: 1 - Design/Build/Manufacture: Some audio designers & companies are known for emphasizing resolution and detail retrieval ("plankton") over all else. Considering that all audio gear gives, at best, a carefully chosen version of how music sounds IRL, this tendence to chase resolution is a legitimate choice...though one that disagrees with me and has since my youth (not a new thing) 2 - Audio Consumers: Similarly, individual listeners also have preferences in the gear they invest in. Some audiophiles go crazy for highly resolving, forensically detailed gear, while others go in the other direction, towards "musicality" (by which I mean similarity to the sound of music IRL), which includes a natural weight in the upper midrange and a slow roll-off in the treble, matching what you’ll hear in any good concert hall In my experience, a lot of brightness is actually dialed in, selected by both parties in the audio hobby. My preferences take me in the other direction and always have. I’ve heard so much live music of all kinds, and other than some amplification anomalies in live electrified shows, I can’t think of any music events that were consistently bright in the way certain components and speakers are. |
One good thing about tube gear is that, given you’re happpy with the overall sound, you don‘t have to buy new gear but different tubes only to tweak the sound. There‘s crazy expensive tubes, of course, but if you desire those they‘re still cheaper than, say, a new amp. Maybe a route worth considering. |
"@arize84 Topping makes some DACs that are quite smooth on top and measure well and are also inexpensive." Topping Dacs do not sound good in the mid range with human voices. They sound shrill. Many Ess dacs sounds like this. Quality modern equipment sounds FAR better than vintage. Those who push vintage gear yearn for nostalgia. |
Isn’t it that if it’s brand new gear it needs to be broken in a little to smooth out some of the edginess. New cables can offer a bright sound and then when used for a while they soften. During the waiting period and if you have tone controls you can reduce the treble. And then bring it back after the warm up phase. Also a lot has to do with ears adjusting to the new experience. You may notice brightness but you also may want to consider the improved detail elsewhere as a way to appreciate improvement of system
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I don’t agree with this line of thought mainly because of course, my own experience. I have finally managed to take the upgrade journey to class A, fully balanced dual mono equipment from input to speakers. I have found the equipment is most certainly not at fault as it is doing its job of reproducing most accurately the analog or digital input. Key words being input and speakers. The quality of the recording and the equipment used to capture and or even create the music play a large part in of themselves. The speakers play both sides of the equation, attempting to reproduce the most accurate input it receives but also a matter of preference since all of our individual hearing is as varied and as different as our opinions. I love what my system creates from the inputs I provide it, and I love how my speakers represent what the equipment is giving them. But it also shows the many flaws in the recordings and other input aspects I provide it. Thanks for letting me offer my opinion! |
Talk about noise, vinyl has more noise than digital, and with every vinyl play, it gets worse. I want it dead quiet, no pops, no scratchiness that vinyl produces. I got rid of all my vinyl for these and other reasons. If digital is producing noise, then you either have a bad network or cheap digital equipment. |
They aren't. Please reread my initial posts on this thread. None of all amplifier designs made prior to about 1995 had enough gain bandwidth product to avoid being bright if those amps used feedback, and most of them did. This is simply because the semiconductors needed to get the required gain bandwidth product didn't exist. During that period we made zero feedback tube amps to get around that problem of listener fatigue because doing so allowed us to control the higher ordered harmonics in such a way that they were inaudible and so our amps were not bright and harsh. We tried using feedback of course but ran into that pesky gain bandwidth product problem which cannot be overcome by any tube design. I can point you to some well written papers on the topic if you are interested, but its helpful to have some technical understanding to really appreciate what they are saying.
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in my experience, harsh or bright systems are the result of: 1. noisy power supply 2. noisy networks (for digital)
The solutions are: 1. A mains power conditioner (PSM 156 is a great option) or mains regenerator if affordable. 2. An audiophile network switch (Bonn 8) with Linear Power Supply 3. Isolate the DAC from the network switch with a renderer (Antipodes EX) 4. Reclocking the digital signal (etherRegen) 5. Only use hard wired connections to the DAC and avoid optical. 5. Better power cables with after market fuses.
Ghod luck! |
So much to unpack here, but i think you got several useful replies.
One i have not yet seen (but no doubt i skipped that reply!) is,"if you think your old Yamaha is so sweet, why not just keep it? Its free..."
Now, is much new gear bright and/or harsh (not the same thing!)? And is it too perfect (***certainly*** not the same thing).
If it were perfect, on great recordings it would vanish and the band would seem to appear, on on bad recordings they would sound reliably, well, bad. So unless you expect your stuff to make up for crap recordings, let’s assume nastly sounding stuff is not perfect. We honestly don’t know why not all data correlates.
Atmosphere hit on one of the key things - there are two classes of distortions. Musical ones that are musically related ("consonant") and nastly, a-musical ones that your brain says "where the F did that come from?" ("dissonant"). We can tolerate, and sometimes ENJOY large amounts of musical distortion. Example A: tubes. We hear and cringe from even small amounts of dissonant distortion: example B: bad digital, many cheap solid state amps, esepcially modern ones with SPMSs.
I will also report that many components are in fact bright and measure so. I can only speculate that they a) jump out in demos as "crisper" (the puppy that runs up to you rather than sitting in the corner of the cage) to they make up for many middle age+ men’s high frequency hearing loss. If like me, you still hear 20 khz, they sound bright, mostly because the ARE bright. I wont name names since that generates a flame war. Mostly speakers and moving coil cartridges.
Its why we must listen. And not do quick A-Bs but extended listening (yea, blind if you can pull it off, its not easy).
G
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I'm not sure being new or old has as much to do with it as design and synergy between speakers, amplification, cables. I actually get a physical headache if I listen to a system that is overly bright/detailed. I recently auditioned a pair of generally well regarded speakers and after about 20 minutes, I got such a headache I had to stop. I don't know if it was the speakers, the amp or the digital source, but overall it was extremely fatiguing. The good news is that it made me appreciate the speakers I have so much more and help quash my upgraditis for now. |
My limited experience tells me that most speakers with medal tweeters sound bright. Adding a bright DAC and a bright amplifier is looking for trouble. Last year, I went from a tube preamp and tube amps to an all solid state integrated. Oh boy what a difference!! I would strongly suggest you go with separates and either the preamp or the amp be tube. It will really cut down on your ear fatigue. All the best. |
Modern B&W 800 series speakers have tended to be brighter than the earlier generations. Lots of people love them, however. As one recent review in a commented (I paraphrase), this is a deliberated design choice on the part of B&W and not a lack of competence on the part of its engineers. Not a choice I endorse, personally. |
First off if a piece of equipment is bright it is not near perfect it is wrong. Finding the source of the sound you do t like is the hard part. Some times it can be as trivial as the receptacle you have the system plugged into. Some times it's placement. Sometimes it's the wire choice. Sometimes it is one piece of equipment. And sometimes it is a number of things all at the same time. All that being said if the choices you have made you are satisfied with the outcome you have made good choices. That is the name of the game. If you get pleasure from the system you have picked and put together. You have done the right thing. |
Unfortunately as our ears age our handling of elevated volume becomes altered. the traditional view of the Fletcher Munson curves established using normal hearers does not correspond to those with aging ears. Specifically loudness growth changes. This factors in with hypersensitivity to sound. So equipment variables as well as changing in our auditory profile provides an arena that becomes difficult to resolve. |
@wturkey Don't agree. If the set-up has a near flat frequency response and low distortion then...............'it's you'. Could be something mechanical in your ears - both ears?? - or your state of mind/mood at the time of listening. Our brain responses to music vary according to psychological factors. That's why it's not sensible to judge system sound changes without applying blind testing to weed out the merely psychological. |
The 2 amps I use (swapping them from time to time) are a single ended tube amp by Dennis Had and a Pass XA-25, and the remarkable thing is how similar they sound although they're utterly different designs. I dislike distortion or noise from any gear (except purposefully distorted guitar amps) and prefer efficient speakers to minimize heavy lifting from an amp, but proper clean treble has gotta be there and any gear that does otherwise leaves the house and isn't invited back. |
@jeffseight ...To eliminate yourself from the equation, have your ears checked if you haven't. Give you a 'baseline' as to what your personal response really is. ;) I finally broke down and resorted to aids...I hadn't noticed that birdsong had become absent in my life....😒 Age is something none get to ignore... @mapman , there's the choices of what connected in what manner to the final reproducer in the given space that has to make the given source sound different Everywhere... And then there's the thought and intentions one makes in choosing nearly all of the above. Imaging and depth I've got, even near-field... I prefer 'flat' as much as practical, but given the space I'm in (that's not a subtle joke, btw), flat out difficult. Long story, no Cliffs' Note on it.... SOTA stuff appeals, but I'd end up wanting 3 pairs of those Atmasphere D's...totally beyond means making a local dealer nonexistent ideal. A man's got to know his limitations..... ;) @mike_in_nc ...but where in..? AVL here... |
@pedroeb , as others pointed. Price not a factor on good sounding gear. I've been listening to music and gear for over 30yrs. I've got new and vintage equipment as well as speakers too. This is a question of analytics on new equipment being too perfect. |
I recall my friend Murray Zeligman who designed speakers telling me that it often wasn't frequency response that caused brightness but poor crossover design to the tweeter resulting in ringing in the crossover region. Another possibility is flat response all the way out. Dynamic speakers should roll off slowly to compensate for changes in power response. As the dispersion narrows with increasing frequency the energy is concentrated resulting in bright response on flat recordings. And, of course, there are poorly mastered recordings deliberately made bright to attract attention but that become tiring on well designed speakers. |
When I am listening to a system I always take an SPL measurement so I am aware of where the level is. Most times I will have a good idea where the level is before I take the reading. Here is where I need some insight.
Sometimes I am guessing too low by 10 dB. That is a lot. Would that be a sign of a very well setup system or am I crazy? Seldom do I hear a system that reads lower than I anticipated. Thoughts? |
Nothing is too perfect. You have vendors and listeners that like analytical sounding gear, and most others don't. There are many vendors that pair warm sounding gear with their products to take some of the bite out, other vendors don't. 2 examples; B&W almost always teams up their speakers with Mcintosh or Classe warm sounding gear (they actually bought Classe), and then you had the benchmark dacs that would make a dog run away it was so analytical/shrill sounding. |
At the beginning of the pandemic I tried out a Cambridge CXA80 and had some fatigue and than sort of went away after getting use to it, but occasionally would get fatigue. Sold it and tried a vintage Marantz 2270 and also had slight fatigue but not as bad as the Cambridge. Sold that off and picked up a McIntosh MA252 hybrid and in the beginning had some fatigue but got use to it and sounded great with Tidal MQA and vinyl. Sold that off and picked up a Primaluna Dialogue Premium tube amp no fatigue but than switch the two front 12AU7 tubes and got initial fatigue but went away after I got use to it. I hung on to that tube amp until recently and never had fatigue after the initial swap of tubes. Now picking up a Technics su-g700 and will see how that turns out. I may end up back with a Primaluna if things don’t work out with the Technics.
P.S. my speakers of choice and they never changed since the beginning of the pandemic were my trusted JBL 4312SE 70TH Anniversary edition. |
This has been alluded to above but I will be more overt about it-you have a Japanese amp from 1988 (MX1000). While there are always exceptions that means a laid back sound character. The fact that your electronics tamed the leans-towards-bright B&W sound (and I am the original owner of a boatload of B&W's including Matrix 805's and like them!) says something about them. I don't mean to come off as a shite, but what exactly is your incredible over-generalized point? Is there a boatload of more modern gear that is impossible to listen to compared to yours? Yup. Is the vast majority of modern gear considered to be in the "high end" a gross contributor of listening fatigue? With amps and preamps my opinion is a steadfast and adamant "no". With digital, well, that is a whole 'nuther discussion and not one you brought up. |
Many recordings are very bright. A system flat to 20 kHz will (IME) result in fatigue. That will be accentuated by bad room acoustics (slap echo, early reflections). Depending on one’s hearing, one might need to roll off the response to make many (but not all) recordings enjoyable. That usually means adjusting toe-in or using an equalizer. The advantage of the latter is that it can be adjusted to suit the recording. Other sources of fatigue have been mentioned: ill health, impending hearing loss, HF distortion, or speakers with peaky or rising HF response.
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I would ask yourself a few things before spending any money. And also think about what you want to do. These would be the steps I would ask myself. 1. Is your system bright sound set up or too analytical? 2. How is your health condition? Tired body or low immune condition can also cause fatigue in hearing. Have some rest and try again, if this is the case. 3. If you are already happy with your components, you need to think about which component you are willing to change. - speakers? too bright? too analytical? - if you are streaming, Tube output DACs are easier on your ears. - Power amps, try warm tone tube amps, if you are using class D amps. |
The Holy Grail in this crazy hobby is an alchemy mix looking for a system synergy regardless of system price point strata. ( yes..it is far more acute as you ascend up into the component higher price points) Ear fatigue / listening fatigue is a litmus test of a clear miss … full stop. Make adjustments as required by a hands-on bespoke trial and error experimentation. - a simple example of rolling up your sleeves in that trial and error process: we all live in a world of budgets and resulting compromises, that is further confused by widely differing personal tastes and resulting biases. One thing remains a general constant in speaker selection in my experiences that is is also supported in many of the reviews : The philosophy is clear. An affordable speaker with decent source and amplification makes more sense than an expensive speaker with a cheap amp and source.
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Also as a footnote if modern gear is producing degrading high order harmonics IT IS NOT TOO PERFECT…..in fact it is flawed. There will always be winners and loser in any product category. Again it’s all in the execution and the choices provided by modern technology. Those choices always continue to do nothing but improve. So choose wisely! 🦉 |
Also, just for the record I have heard some very expensive tube systems at shows designed explicitly to not produce ear fatigue deliver some of the most fatiguing sound in the show. Probably a system mismatch issue combined with challenging room acoustics. Again, doing it right and applying the best technology correctly is ALWAYS the key, not any specific one type of technology used. Guarandamteed! 😉 |
For example, take Atmasphere amps designed to explicitly not produce high order distortion. Until recently these were all tube amps but now an Atmasphere SS Class D amp is a real thing. So draw your own conclusion there about the capabilities of modern technology done well. Done well is ALWAYS the key. That just takes smart people who are good engineers. |
