Is it me or new audio gear is too perfect and give ear fatigue?
Since getting back into the hobby during covid I’ve really enjoyed listening to music vs. bluetooth low quality speakers. Since listening to my Nautilus 803 speakers with old Yamaha Amps (MX1, MX1000) they’ve been sweet sounding and warm.
A lot of people have said the new equipment is near perfect chasing specs, sounding bright and causing ear fatigue.
Ear fatigue is caused by higher ordered harmonic distortion that isn't masked by the music or lower ordered harmonics. Its also caused by intermodulations and aliasing in digital gear (which is intermodulations of a different sort). The ear assigns 'harsh and bright' to these distortions and since it uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure, is keenly sensitive to their presence even in tiny amounts.
There's plenty of gear out there that can be harsh and bright. Usually the problems show up when you are within 6dB of full power; if your system sounds 'loud' at higher volumes then its an issue. If you are not having problems with these kinds of distortion the system will not sound loud even if it is; IOW you might be surprised to find that you have to yell at someone sitting next to you to be heard.
I have heard many fatiguing systems like you describe. Typically the higher end the less “fatigue” will be involved. The inexpensive stuff typically has a very high noise floor (this is subtle to hear directly for the non-trained ear… it just manifests itself as fatigue) and high frequency distortion. These go away with high quality detailed oriented equipment. But you can easily still be left with over accentuated details and a lean threadbare presentation with good bass slam.
I have left many an audition shaking my head in disbelief. On the other hand 40 or fifty years ago I would have left extolling all the virtues.
To me one of the long term draws of the pursuit is learning about sound and music as well as equipment and sound reproduction. Each like an onion… you peal back one after another layer and find more aspects of musical reproduction. In my youth I crave the obvious… details and slam. As I got much more experienced imaging, soundstaging, overall balance. But as I learned what real music sounds (acoustical) I started realizing capturing the musical essence has to do with rhythm and pace, mid range bloom and balanced presentation. No end… just keeps getting better.
Strongly disagree that most new gear is bright. It really boils down to speaker choice and system matching. For example, my current DAC is a Chinese DAC that measures extremely well. I usually at listen at around 84 db volume and I don’t find it bright at all; DAC pretty much matches the tonality of my turntable.
For example, my current DAC is a Chinese DAC that measures extremely well.
@arize84Topping makes some DACs that are quite smooth on top and measure well and are also inexpensive. High end audio is not driven by cost, its driven by intent. However even though a source might work just fine that says nothing about design issues in a power amp. For example if its lacking in gain bandwidth product and also has feedback it will sound bright and harsh at higher power levels. This is because the feedback will fall off at higher frequencies causing an increase in distortion. This particular problem is endemic with 99% of all solid state amps made.
@ghdprentice , soundstage and imaging is what I prefer. I guess the late 70s equipment and some 80s is what floats my boat. I have not gotten lucky to probably hear all equipment, I just stuck with brands that I remember and like. With the internet, I can read more about vintage and new gear, also check on Youtube to hear how it sounds (compressed down). There is something about those Pioneers SX receivers that has that imaging that keeps me engage to listening to music.
@carlsbad , agree, certain DACS are better sounding. I also picked up a Freya + I'm happy using the Schiit DAC and the Yamaha CDS2100 CD DAC. Always wanted a pair of Thiel's to try. I lust as the catalogs when they use to show his models of speakers.
Again, not trying to offend anyone on new gear, I just feel the specs are near perfect in the tonality.
It certainly is very easy these days to build systems that have way too much high frequency energy and/or is fatiguing. The two are correlated but not equivalent - SOME gear has a perceived excess of treble / HF energy, but is of such a very high quality (and so smooth) that it doesn’t cause me fatigue. Some examples: Stax headphones like the SR-009, Ortofon’s high-end MCs: A90 / Windfeld Ti. That’s not typical though. And you still don’t want to stack multiple components like this, because the result will be musically unbalanced.
This behavior is definitely not just driven by room acoustics - it’s characteristic of the components themselves. I hear the same sonic footprint when I move a component into a buddy’s system. And of course headphones (which I have tons of experience with) don’t have this variable at all.
System matching, to ensure a good resulting balance, is crucial. This isn’t something you can reasonably glean from FR graphs or other measurements. I don’t know of a way other than trial & error.
Speaking of Schiit DACs, I have a Bifrost II in my second system and I think it is a great value in it's price range. With some combinations of equipment I've found it a bight overly bright but currently sounds good.
Hopefully no surprise that it’s you. Nothing wrong with that. Different strokes. But has nothing to do with how theoretically good something is. Goodness is often a subjective determination in the mind of the beholder. But fact is from a pure technical perspective the best modern gear is in general miles ahead of things from the past. Objectively that is. Some people may hate that for whatever reason. It’s all good. We are all different. Personally, I am an Engineer and I value good engineering and find that always leads me in the right direction whereas otherwise it is a potshot. yMMV.
Well yes high order harmonic distortion is in fact a thing to avoid for that reason but if someone really believes ear fatigue due to high order harmonics is truly an inherent problem still in in practice then just stick to tubes old or new and choose your distortions there because truly good modern SS amplification gear is better at that than ever before.
Its like saying fatty food is bad for your health. Yes it is so just find the foods that aren’t. Then make sure to avoid their downsides too. Bottom line is there is more good quality food that is good for your health available today than ever before. Why? Because people now care about that and science provides the means to make things better.
For example, take Atmasphere amps designed to explicitly not produce high order distortion. Until recently these were all tube amps but now an Atmasphere SS Class D amp is a real thing. So draw your own conclusion there about the capabilities of modern technology done well. Done well is ALWAYS the key. That just takes smart people who are good engineers.
Also, just for the record I have heard some very expensive tube systems at shows designed explicitly to not produce ear fatigue deliver some of the most fatiguing sound in the show. Probably a system mismatch issue combined with challenging room acoustics. Again, doing it right and applying the best technology correctly is ALWAYS the key, not any specific one type of technology used. Guarandamteed! 😉
Also as a footnote if modern gear is producing degrading high order harmonics IT IS NOT TOO PERFECT…..in fact it is flawed. There will always be winners and loser in any product category. Again it’s all in the execution and the choices provided by modern technology. Those choices always continue to do nothing but improve. So choose wisely! 🦉
The Holy Grail in this crazy hobby is an alchemy mix looking for a system synergy regardless of system price point strata. ( yes..it is far more acute as you ascend up into the component higher price points)
Achieving that ethereal system synergy (or not …) is a binary choice result …. It’s either “yay” or “nay”. It is very difficult to define it and anything but easy to get to it, but you intuitively know when you find it.(… or not …)
Ear fatigue / listening fatigue is a litmus test of a clear miss … full stop. Make adjustments as required by a hands-on bespoke trial and error experimentation.
- a simple example of rolling up your sleeves in that trial and error process:
we all live in a world of budgets and resulting compromises, that is further confused by widely differing personal tastes and resulting biases. One thing remains a general constant in speaker selection in my experiences that is is also supported in many of the reviews :
The philosophy is clear. An affordable speaker with decent source and amplification makes more sense than an expensive speaker with a cheap amp and source.
I would ask yourself a few things before spending any money. And also think about what you want to do. These would be the steps I would ask myself.
1. Is your system bright sound set up or too analytical?
2. How is your health condition? Tired body or low immune condition can also cause fatigue in hearing. Have some rest and try again, if this is the case.
3. If you are already happy with your components, you need to think about which component you are willing to change.
- speakers? too bright? too analytical?
- if you are streaming, Tube output DACs are easier on your ears.
- Power amps, try warm tone tube amps, if you are using class D amps.
Many recordings are very bright. A system flat to 20 kHz will (IME) result in fatigue. That will be accentuated by bad room acoustics (slap echo, early reflections).
Depending on one’s hearing, one might need to roll off the response to make many (but not all) recordings enjoyable. That usually means adjusting toe-in or using an equalizer. The advantage of the latter is that it can be adjusted to suit the recording.
Other sources of fatigue have been mentioned: ill health, impending hearing loss, HF distortion, or speakers with peaky or rising HF response.
This has been alluded to above but I will be more overt about it-you have a Japanese amp from 1988 (MX1000). While there are always exceptions that means a laid back sound character. The fact that your electronics tamed the leans-towards-bright B&W sound (and I am the original owner of a boatload of B&W's including Matrix 805's and like them!) says something about them. I don't mean to come off as a shite, but what exactly is your incredible over-generalized point? Is there a boatload of more modern gear that is impossible to listen to compared to yours? Yup. Is the vast majority of modern gear considered to be in the "high end" a gross contributor of listening fatigue? With amps and preamps my opinion is a steadfast and adamant "no". With digital, well, that is a whole 'nuther discussion and not one you brought up.
At the beginning of the pandemic I tried out a Cambridge CXA80 and had some fatigue and than sort of went away after getting use to it, but occasionally would get fatigue. Sold it and tried a vintage Marantz 2270 and also had slight fatigue but not as bad as the Cambridge. Sold that off and picked up a McIntosh MA252 hybrid and in the beginning had some fatigue but got use to it and sounded great with Tidal MQA and vinyl. Sold that off and picked up a Primaluna Dialogue Premium tube amp no fatigue but than switch the two front 12AU7 tubes and got initial fatigue but went away after I got use to it. I hung on to that tube amp until recently and never had fatigue after the initial swap of tubes. Now picking up a Technics su-g700 and will see how that turns out. I may end up back with a Primaluna if things don’t work out with the Technics.
P.S. my speakers of choice and they never changed since the beginning of the pandemic were my trusted JBL 4312SE 70TH Anniversary edition.
Nothing is too perfect. You have vendors and listeners that like analytical sounding gear, and most others don't. There are many vendors that pair warm sounding gear with their products to take some of the bite out, other vendors don't. 2 examples; B&W almost always teams up their speakers with Mcintosh or Classe warm sounding gear (they actually bought Classe), and then you had the benchmark dacs that would make a dog run away it was so analytical/shrill sounding.
I recall my friend Murray Zeligman who designed speakers telling me that it often wasn't frequency response that caused brightness but poor crossover design to the tweeter resulting in ringing in the crossover region.
Another possibility is flat response all the way out. Dynamic speakers should roll off slowly to compensate for changes in power response. As the dispersion narrows with increasing frequency the energy is concentrated resulting in bright response on flat recordings.
And, of course, there are poorly mastered recordings deliberately made bright to attract attention but that become tiring on well designed speakers.
@pedroeb, as others pointed. Price not a factor on good sounding gear. I've been listening to music and gear for over 30yrs. I've got new and vintage equipment as well as speakers too. This is a question of analytics on new equipment being too perfect.
@jeffseight ...To eliminate yourself from the equation, have your ears checked if you haven't. Give you a 'baseline' as to what your personal response really is. ;)
I finally broke down and resorted to aids...I hadn't noticed that birdsong had become absent in my life....😒 Age is something none get to ignore...
@mapman , there's the choices of what connected in what manner to the final reproducer in the given space that has to make the given source sound different Everywhere...
And then there's the thought and intentions one makes in choosing nearly all of the above. Imaging and depth I've got, even near-field...
Makes me want to play with the imaging, but I digress...*S*
I prefer 'flat' as much as practical, but given the space I'm in (that's not a subtle joke, btw), flat out difficult. Long story, no Cliffs' Note on it....
SOTA stuff appeals, but I'd end up wanting 3 pairs of those Atmasphere D's...totally beyond means making a local dealer nonexistent ideal.
The 2 amps I use (swapping them from time to time) are a single ended tube amp by Dennis Had and a Pass XA-25, and the remarkable thing is how similar they sound although they're utterly different designs. I dislike distortion or noise from any gear (except purposefully distorted guitar amps) and prefer efficient speakers to minimize heavy lifting from an amp, but proper clean treble has gotta be there and any gear that does otherwise leaves the house and isn't invited back.
@wturkey Don't agree. If the set-up has a near flat frequency response and low distortion then...............'it's you'.
Could be something mechanical in your ears - both ears?? - or your state of mind/mood at the time of listening. Our brain responses to music vary according to psychological factors. That's why it's not sensible to judge system sound changes without applying blind testing to weed out the merely psychological.
Unfortunately as our ears age our handling of elevated volume becomes altered.
the traditional view of the Fletcher Munson curves established using normal hearers does not correspond to those with aging ears. Specifically loudness growth changes. This factors in with hypersensitivity to sound.
So equipment variables as well as changing in our auditory profile provides an arena that becomes difficult to resolve.
First off if a piece of equipment is bright it is not near perfect it is wrong. Finding the source of the sound you do t like is the hard part. Some times it can be as trivial as the receptacle you have the system plugged into. Some times it's placement. Sometimes it's the wire choice. Sometimes it is one piece of equipment. And sometimes it is a number of things all at the same time. All that being said if the choices you have made you are satisfied with the outcome you have made good choices. That is the name of the game. If you get pleasure from the system you have picked and put together. You have done the right thing.
Modern B&W 800 series speakers have tended to be brighter than the earlier generations. Lots of people love them, however. As one recent review in a commented (I paraphrase), this is a deliberated design choice on the part of B&W and not a lack of competence on the part of its engineers. Not a choice I endorse, personally.
My limited experience tells me that most speakers with medal tweeters sound bright. Adding a bright DAC and a bright amplifier is looking for trouble. Last year, I went from a tube preamp and tube amps to an all solid state integrated. Oh boy what a difference!!
I would strongly suggest you go with separates and either the preamp or the amp be tube. It will really cut down on your ear fatigue.
If you compare new equipment, especially tubed gear, the new gear has a less tube sound or warmth as it has in older vintage gear. This has been a trend that I’ve noticed. I have several systems and love the smooth warmth of vintage gear. Even vintage solid state sounds warmer.
I'm not sure being new or old has as much to do with it as design and synergy between speakers, amplification, cables. I actually get a physical headache if I listen to a system that is overly bright/detailed. I recently auditioned a pair of generally well regarded speakers and after about 20 minutes, I got such a headache I had to stop. I don't know if it was the speakers, the amp or the digital source, but overall it was extremely fatiguing. The good news is that it made me appreciate the speakers I have so much more and help quash my upgraditis for now.
So much to unpack here, but i think you got several useful replies.
One i have not yet seen (but no doubt i skipped that reply!) is,"if you think your old Yamaha is so sweet, why not just keep it? Its free..."
Now, is much new gear bright and/or harsh (not the same thing!)? And is it too perfect (***certainly*** not the same thing).
If it were perfect, on great recordings it would vanish and the band would seem to appear, on on bad recordings they would sound reliably, well, bad. So unless you expect your stuff to make up for crap recordings, let’s assume nastly sounding stuff is not perfect. We honestly don’t know why not all data correlates.
Atmosphere hit on one of the key things - there are two classes of distortions. Musical ones that are musically related ("consonant") and nastly, a-musical ones that your brain says "where the F did that come from?" ("dissonant"). We can tolerate, and sometimes ENJOY large amounts of musical distortion. Example A: tubes. We hear and cringe from even small amounts of dissonant distortion: example B: bad digital, many cheap solid state amps, esepcially modern ones with SPMSs.
I will also report that many components are in fact bright and measure so. I can only speculate that they a) jump out in demos as "crisper" (the puppy that runs up to you rather than sitting in the corner of the cage) to they make up for many middle age+ men’s high frequency hearing loss. If like me, you still hear 20 khz, they sound bright, mostly because the ARE bright. I wont name names since that generates a flame war. Mostly speakers and moving coil cartridges.
Its why we must listen. And not do quick A-Bs but extended listening (yea, blind if you can pull it off, its not easy).
I have not had any ear fatigue with higher frequencies but have had issues with lower frequencies. When adding sub woofers to a system I would get ear pressure and fatigue until I was able to dial in the subs to blend in perfectly with the stand mount speakers and disappear.
They aren't. Please reread my initial posts on this thread.
None of all amplifier designs made prior to about 1995 had enough gain bandwidth product to avoid being bright if those amps used feedback, and most of them did. This is simply because the semiconductors needed to get the required gain bandwidth product didn't exist.
During that period we made zero feedback tube amps to get around that problem of listener fatigue because doing so allowed us to control the higher ordered harmonics in such a way that they were inaudible and so our amps were not bright and harsh. We tried using feedback of course but ran into that pesky gain bandwidth product problem which cannot be overcome by any tube design.
I can point you to some well written papers on the topic if you are interested, but its helpful to have some technical understanding to really appreciate what they are saying.
Talk about noise, vinyl has more noise than digital, and with every vinyl play, it gets worse. I want it dead quiet, no pops, no scratchiness that vinyl produces. I got rid of all my vinyl for these and other reasons.
If digital is producing noise, then you either have a bad network or cheap digital equipment.
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