I get how power amps can make really significant changes to the sound of a system. And of course speakers have an even bigger effect. And then there is the complicated relationship between the speaker and power amp. But I wonder about pre-amps.
In theory a well designed preamp should just act as a source switch and volume control. But does it add (or ruin) magic? Can a pre-amp color the sound? Alter pace and timing? Could you take a great sounding system and spoil it with the wrong preamp? Stereophile once gushed (while reviewing a preamp that cost as much as a car) that the preamp was the heart of the system, setting the tone of everything. Really? Some people don't even bother with a preamp, feeding their DACs straight into the power amp. Others favor passive devices, things without power. If one can get a perfectly good $2K preamp, why bother with 20K?
A preamp can make a significant difference in sound. I suspect "the theory" doesn’t tell the whole story, plus there are different levels of "perfectly good".
The value of more expensive components means different things to different people. Not only do some people have deeper pockets and think nothing of spending $20K on a preamp, those who "get it right" also tend to have access to equipment that performs at a level many of us are simply unfamiliar with....similar to expensive cars. I would never spend $5K for performance shocks and racing tires for my Hyundai Elantra, but if I owned a McLaren it’d seem silly not to. Sometimes things just cost more, but sometimes they actually offer more too. A world class preamp is likely to have a better phono stage with more options, better line stage with more options, better switches, better connections, better build quality on everything, etc. In a highly resolving system, everything becomes more audible, but to make sense, all the components need to be at a similar clarity level. There’s distinctly diminishing returns as the prices go up though.
I have an excellent older (refreshed) Lazarus Cascade Basic tube preamp that was $650 new in the late 80s....it’d probably retail for closer to $2K now. It works well, sounds great to me, and is a good match for the rest of my system. As good as my preamp is, a Convergent SL-1 is better in every way, but it’s just beyond budget for guys like me, and I’d have to transform my entire system up to that level, or it’s advantage would be negated by the rest of my system.
It depends. There are amps out there that are designed and work well with the preamp stage in many sources like DACs. This is not always the case though. I have had serious issues with matching DAC preamp stages to SETs for instance.
If the volume control in a DAC is good, you don't need an analog input and the output from the DAC is well suited to the power amp you don't need a preamp.
Secondarily though, many preamps do add some coloration. For many this is a strike against them. For others, this is an essential role but this is strictly a matter of taste.
I've long thought of them as heart of system. An active pre certainly has flavor which can be a wonderful or bad thing. Get it right, you'll love your system more than sans pre. With advent of digital volume control, I see many foregoing pre, they're missing out, imo. The issue is wrong or bad active pre worse than no pre.
In theory a well designed preamp should just act as a source switch and volume control.
Correct. Only problem, it takes about $20k to attain "in theory". For much less you get a whole big long list of sacrifices and compromises. In other words, "reality".
PS- Even for $20k all you get is a much shorter list of smaller sacrifices and compromises. There is no "in theory". That's the reality.
When I added a Herron Audio tube pre-amp to my system, it was an immense change, and all for the better. I had been using an MSB DAC into an MSB power amp, but now I've got that DAC running into the preamp, which in turn runs into the power amp, and yow, what a difference!!
I get how power amps can make really significant changes to the sound of
a system. And of course speakers have an even bigger effect. And then
there is the complicated relationship between the speaker and power amp.
But I wonder about pre-amps.
This is how important: no matter how good your amps and speakers are, they cannot make up for a shortcoming upstream. The preamp is vital in this regard. Sometimes you can get by with a simple volume control and a switch (to do so, plan on keeping your interconnect cables really short).
I have my preamp sitting with my source equipment in an equipment stand that is well away from my speakers. To increase system resolution, I run short speaker cables and long (30') balanced interconnect cables. But my preamp supports the balanced line standard so I can run cables that long with no degradation and the kind of cable is irrelevant to the sound of the system (since that is one of the advantages of the balanced line system). In a case like this you can see how important the preamp is, since most sources do not have the ability to drive long cables.
Some would argue it’s the most important link in the chain. How can you realize the full potential of your sources, amp, and speakers without a great preamp?
A pre amp is all about control for me. Had a hard time finding one balanced in/out, two stacked processor loops accessible via remote and at least 4 inputs. As a bonus it's totally nuetral (as a passive), has remote mono and trims for each input to match levels. Worth the search.
Some folks like coloration certain preamps provide.
This is of course a point of tremendous debate. I prefer the lack of coloration afforded when the interconnect cables cease to alter the sound of the system. You can't do that with a passive setup. But to be clear a lot of active preamps can't insure that either.
From integral to superfluous to hindrance. It’s system dependent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Had a Chinese clone of a jadis circuit, obviously far away froma actual Jadis,a s 1 tech geek who mods these linestage told me,,,but anyway,, had 6 12AT7's, love all those tubes,,,installed Mundorf caps, ,,,6 months later added a Jadis DPL from 2000 era, installed M caps, Takman resistors,, honestly,, the DPL was a nuance superior, not bu much. So yes, a linestage has slight, minisclue gains in sonic.s
My mantra here on audiogon is ~~Speakers are everything ina system~~ At least 90% of the soundstage. = preamps/amps/source, all divide the 15% 5%/5%/5% Speakers 85% So do the math.
like mentioned by Atmasphere some can and some can't. Everything you listen to has coloration even passive, transformers, tubes, resistors and capacitors all have their own coloration. You cannot get around it.
@tvad
The choice of preamp, and whether to use one at all is also governed by an amplifier's gain. Yepper. This also comes into play when people write a review and compare things. Not always apples to apples as they say.
After almost 50 years of this mania, IMHO the preamp is the most important component in a system; it is the heart from which all arteries (cables to amp tp speakers) and veins (inputs from sources) flow. I have a VTL 7.5 iii and it is the most neutral, flawless component I have ever owned. Neal
I agree with Tvad. There is no one correct answer since our perceptions of sound are all subjective. I have tried both ways a number of times, and always come back to an active linestage. Yes, they all sound different, but they all seem to reveal more depth and nuance to my ears, whereas passives seem to have the edge with faster transients and a somewhat leaner sound. We need a contribution here from georgehifi.
I also think its the heart of a great system. I like them stripped down, as few switches and other things in the signal path as possible. Less is more ..... I dont care about specs or anything other than how it sounds, or doesn't sound like ANYTHING more preferably
you cannot generalize about the importance of preamps as the contribution of preamps to the system performance is all about context and the resolution of the system.
at modest levels of gear preamps are limitations to performance as they add cables, plugs and mediocre circuits to the signal path. you are better off finding sources with analog volume controls that are capable of directly driving amplifiers (less is definitely more at modest levels). your net performance will be higher for the same investment. i’m over-simplifying things somewhat, but this is mostly how it goes. an exception is where you personally prefer the coloration a particular preamp might bring to what you hear. a matter of personal preference....and not how i like to do it.
past a certain point of gear performance/resolution level preamps start to add dynamics and drive to the music. then the next step is preamp synergy with amplifiers. the top level of preamps are the ones made to be optimized with particular amplifiers. at the cutting edge preamps limit amps and amps limit preamps. the idea is the sum is greater than the parts.
in my particular system i have a great passive preamp inside my MSB Select II Dac. it’s really fine directly driving my dart amps. but my darTZeel battery power active preamp combined with my dart amps is even better. but if i did not have multiple analog sources i would eliminate the dart pre and go naked with the MSB passive pre in my dac.
In my experience yes. Specifically, I added a preamp to a system with DAC, turntable and integrated amp. I negotiated an at home trial with McIntosh C2600 and it made a distinct difference. Why, I don’t know. Would this experience be true with all preamps? I don’t know either.
Some subscribe to the theory that the preamp is the "heart" of the system. Amplification to simply enlarge what is then presented. For me, the preamp is vital downstream of the DAC but this is driven by personal taste and I like the sound of tubes between the DAC and SS amplifier. Does this add some distortion, of course. It also adds dimensionality to what otherwise sounds thin to my ears. We are all different I particularly like a little tube distortion. It *feels* good.
I believe that the preamp is the heart of most good systems. It has been for mine for fifty years. It is the heart of the magic. Some folks have sucessfully connected digital equipment direct to amps but so far that seldom works well. This may work in the future, but getting compatible and synergistic is exceptionally difficult. If you do a survey of the literature it is really hard to do, many people that try it, give up and go back to a preamp.
You really have to be careful about this “most important” component thing. Maybe.. for components at the same level of performance or cost “the most important component” is. But even that is hard. For me, I generally put the most money into the preamp. It is the heart, and you don’t want it coloring the sound.
As others have stated, it’s very system dependent. But I’d venture a guess that in most systems a preamp is critical to the end result you hear. Over my many years of listening/learning my two absolute biggest surprises were:
1- the preamp can make a huge difference in a system’s performance, and in my system the pre makes a much bigger difference than even the amp and is only behind speakers and the room in terms of its overall influence and impact on sound (again, very system dependent). 2- subwoofers can absolutely transform a system in terms of dramatically improving imaging and expanding the soundstage (it ain’t all about that bass).
These were the two biggest smack me upside the head/I didn’t see that coming moments during my long audio journey, FWIW in the context of your question. I’d HIGHLY recommend at least demoing a good pre in your system to see what you hear for yourself — I bet you’ll be pretty surprised. I sure as hell know I was. Have fun with the journey.
As others have said, it is very dependent on the rest of your system. But unless you have a single high-level source with an excellent built in volume control (such as @mikelavigne 's MSB DAC), a good preamp can make a significant different to the overall sound quality.
In my experience (45+ years in this hobby), the speakers and room are still the most important, but the preamp is probably next in it's effect on the sound. If you're including a phono stage in the preamp, it's even more important.
I used to run a well-regarded passive line state (whose name escapes me) with my McCormack DNA-1, with CD source only, and loved it. McC made their own passive line stage that is still coveted when upgraded by Steve McCormack.
My sources are all digital, and I have thought of either getting one of the Tortuga passive stages (straight wire, no gain) into a DAC and then my amp, or something like the Chord Hugo TT2 DAC using that as the preamp too. And then I think that maybe a tube preamp would be fun, as I’ve never had tubes. But my whole system costs less than an exotic set of speaker cables!
Good thread, but the frustrating part is not being able to mix and match the various options in auditioning pieces (within budget), and trying to dial in the synergy. I have a short list of amps and preamps I like, but I have no idea which ones would play well together if of different brands. Therefore, I wonder if going to an integrated (Pass 60, Levinson, Aesthetix Mimas, Simaudio 600i V2) would alleviate that frustration, and then the DAC becomes the main variable. Hmmm.
I wont add too much redundancy to what has been said here. MillerCarbon made me chuckle.
But an overlooked fact is that in the majority of cases the volume and balance controls (essentially two sequential attenuators, so the distortions are doubled keep in mind) are one of the most non-linear and distorting parts of the preamp. Most are in fact pretty bad.
In fact, my current design project is a preamp that eliminates traditional volume potentiometers and replaces them with one of two technologies at different price-points, both are substantially better, and both lend themselves to very nice remote control.
Let’s put aside volume control in the digital domain which has an entire raft of issues, but under the right circumstances can be very good. 99.999% of people have never heard those right circumstances.
Your basic volume (or balance) control is a carbon powder strip with a wiper. It is noisy, prone to dust and moisture, and does not track evenly left to right.
The next step up are Noble/ALPS style, which are still carbon powder, but in a plastic carrier. They are smoother, largely sealed and less prone to issues. They are expensive and in doing so track better left to right. They are still very imperfect.
At the top of the food chain are pairs of discrete, precision, metal-film, low noise resistors. You switch in two matched pairs of these for each volume level - maybe 64 pairs. A smaller number suffice for the balance. Stepped attenuators can cost a HUGE amount due to the labor and the 128 position switches, and are large in size, don’t play well with remote control. BUT computers and relays can come save the day ( as i am doing).
In the middle are what boil down to chips with 128 pairs of resistors that can be switched in and out. They are chips resistors, so imperfect, but i speculated that they are better than the lousy alternative. They can be, but if you use them normally or per the data sheet they are truly awful. It took me many weeks to figure out how to us them correctly. (and a really great chip engineer at the fab firm that made me his fun project). These are a little complex but overall can be cost effective in somewhat reasonably priced designs - the biggest cost being yet another very quiet power supply (or else.....).
So, the little things are way more complicated than you might imagine. Now that i have prototypes floating around, i can’t go back.
By the way, switches have their own issues, and a preamp does have an amplification stage. If its a Phono (RIAA) it has a very complicated amplifier with up to 2,000X amplification which makes noise a (expletive omitted) nightmare.
So yea, all you need to do is be perfect and it works great.
The preamp is the electrical buffer between yourpower amp and line stage components, volume control, and switch between components. The separation of the preamp from the amplifier made theoretical sense when they contained phono sections for low output cartridges that needed separation electrical fields from the amplifier output. Adding another another supply, chassis, and cables increases the cost and complexity. Well designed integrated amps are plentiful, and popular. Concerning dacs, be sure that there is a true volume attenuators in the output stage, and not just truncated digital paths
Used integrated amps for ages, till i got my firstwatt SIT-3. At first connected to dac direct, rockna wavedream dac has some digital volume control. Loved the amp enough to decide to get a pass XP-22. The preamp arrived and i got mind blown! There is "drive" even at lower volumes. Sound stage expanded in all directions and everything within it separated beautifully. More details which is counter intuitive! Supposed to be the opposite, but it was not. Even tone and timber improved. I highly recommend a decent preamp. Its not just a volume control, I'm a believer now
The preamp is very important. I just purchased a new preamp and it has completely changed my listening experience. I thought I had a bad match between my speakers and amplier but the problem was the preamp. I found this out my accident. I only purchased the preamp because I was on a buying frenzy. I wasn't expecting a change in the sound signature at at all. If you are not happy with the sound of your speakers try a new preamp.
Interesting discussion. One topic I haven't seen mentioned is how the "Line Level" of a DAC or preamp output affects the equation. When I was young, I was taught that the main purpose of a preamp, assuming you don't want to color the sound, is to receive an input signal and output an uncolored signal to the power amp at "Line Level". So, in theory, if you have a good DAC (with a good volume control and analog output section) which provides an analog output at the same Line Level as a given preamp, how could the preamp do anything BUT add coloration? But, if you look up Line Level on wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level), you'll see it's not quite that simple.
To use a specific example I'm familiar with, the Gustard x26-Pro is reputed to be a pretty good DAC, and some of the posts on this site have said that it's analog output section is a good one. Yet others will say that feeding its output directly into a high quality amp provides noticeably poorer sound than using it with a good, uncolored SS preamp, such as a Benchmark HPA4. Why would that be? I don't know the answer, but I'd bet it has something to do with the DAC's analog output being unable to match the Line Level of the output of the HPA4. This doesn't make sense to me if the DAC truly does have a good output section, but I trust the people who tell me it matters to them. If anyone would like to weigh in on this, I'd love to learn more.
I took out my Ayre KX-5 Twenty a few times to test if the cost is justified. I immediately put it back in with a dCS Bartok & Lumin T2 (demo) going to an Ayre VX-5 Twenty. My experiment to omit the preamp backfired as I ended up buying an Ayre KX-R Twenty once I experienced the importance of a good preamp. It doesn't matter that the Bartok has a 6v balanced output. I wouldn't consider running raw dog unless I had a MSB Select II like @mikelavigne.
So I’ve ran both. My PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr. Direct into a pair of PS Audio M700’s. An excellent pairing making me wonder why would I need a preamp for anyways. Then I got an BAT VK50-SE and ran Orchard Audio Gen1 StarKimson Amps on the Mids/Tweets/Upper Bass and a class D ICE Amp on the Lower Bass drivers. Traded the PS Audio Amps for the BAT Preamp.
There will always be two camps. Straight Wire with gain and input switching. The other Camp is the reverse (my camp as well) where the preamp provides the “color” and the Amplifier is a gain block.
The ultimate preamp is a transformer. This is the only way to avoid potentiometers of one form or another. The problem with transformers has always been they are difficult to implement with suitably fine steps. Townshend has done this with their Allegri preamps, and maybe others have as well.
First i owned Sonic Frontiers Line 1, then Burmester 011 and then the gorgeous Dartzeel NHB 18NS, until I finally tested the MFA Baby Reference Preamplifier!!! I bought it and the topic “preamplifier”, has finished for me for ever. So simple.
I have the Townshend Allegri Reference (upgraded from the "standard" Allegri). This was well reviewed by Martin Colloms of Hi-Fi Critic and Raphael Todes of Allegri String Quartet fame, the latter uses the Bartok and found the Reference worked far better for volume control/sound quality. I believe both reviewers now own and use the Refernce in their own systems. This unit requires no expensive mains lead or support as it incorporates Max's podium style feet, but you could use one of Max's platforms as well. From my perspective, this is the most important element of my system, and using it is like upgrading all my source components in one go !! It does require a substantial run-in period and benefits from balanced interconnects between pre and power. Martin uses solid state (Naim) whilst Rapheal uses valves - it works well with either - see millercarbon's post above.
I went from a Parasound JC-2 solid state to a Cary SLP-05. Wow what a difference. System is really musical, never harsh. The tube preamp made all the difference.
After trying numerous preamps in my system (solid state, tubes, fully balanced, newer, older...) I realized how important a preamp is and how much difference it can make your system sound. I ended up buying a McIntosh C2300 and it's going to stay here for the long run.
I’ve never had good results running direct from CD or DAC to power amps. Others do and so obviously I haven’t made the correct equipment choices in that regard. The only good experience I’ve had with eliminating an active preamp is with utilizing a Manley Steelhead’s variable output. I found that to be excellent. I use an expensive tube preamp and can honestly say that there’s only a marginal improvement in areas of tone and transparency when compared to the Steelhead’s vari-out. But these small improvements are worth it to me, for the time being. I think there’s a higher cost threshold that one must pass through with an active preamp for there to be an overall improvement in system performance. Cheaper preamps (with lower quality parts) always seem to add coloration and remove transparency in my limited experience.
For example parasound jc2 preamplifier is considered by few to be an endgame preamp. There's really no thrills with this preamp it does three things well the bass the treble and the mids with very little coloration. Everything about this preamplifier says quality build from a good designer. However take the top off and take a peek inside and you'll be amazed at just how little you see. With today's high-end portable headphone streamers and music players the competition is getting very Savvy with building high quality HiFi Sound in small boxes. Today's dacs with preamplifier sections in them are catching up to our large box Hi-Fi home preamplifiers very quickly.
knotscott nailed it. I cannot think of any way to say it better.
In my limited experience, going from a decent AVR to a similarly priced stereo amp made a clear and present difference—for the better. Just have everything in balance.
As noted above, transformers seem key. After ten years’ pleasure from a valve phono-line stage preamp I ordered a TVC yesterday after a months trial in my system. With high efficiency loudspeakers and an SET listening to LP’s and FM radio, stripping away the many feet of wire, Audio Note caps, resistors, valves, and mains electricity of an active pre has effected greatly more clarity and presence. Omitting all that charged material, I can enjoy the effects of less noise, not least, startling delicacy of sound. Made entirely by a valve amplifier manufacturer that winds its own (copper) transformers and silver internal wiring, this unit seems very well designed (Audion. I have no connection with them). It offers very nearly the weight, huge soundstage and all the colour of sound of my valve pre. I wouldn’t go back to a powered device. It took me a month to decide. I heard it in the first half minute.
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