Does a turntable make a DRAMATIC difference?

Unless you put a huge amount of money into your digital setup it'll never come close to good analog playback. ☺

Unless you put huge amount of money into your tt set up it'll never sound cd quality. 

Definitely upgrading the turntable can make a substantial difference but right now, I would be more concerned with all the mods done to the Rega.  All these after market mods may be simply mucking up the works and not an improvement.

I’m not super educated on newer equipment, I’m older and therefore prefer vintage equipment, over the years I have been fortunate enough to keeping trading up and up and up to where I am now. I’m running 1963 “The Fisher” 800 C AMP, Turntable: DENON DP 62L with a Audio-Technica VM760SLC cart , speakers are Cerwin Vega  D-3 . As stated I’ve traded up from low end pioneer receivers, all kinda of turntables, and speakers and I can say I have heard a incredible difference, with my current set up I’ve heard things I’ve never heard before, so I think the answer is yes you can get a dramatic difference listening experience in upgraded equipment.  

Not saying you have to spend $100K or near on a turntable, but once you've heard an exceptional turntable setup on a suitable system it's apparent that there is much more to a fine table than just spinning at the proper speed. Analog playback is a system of accurately measuring the signal recorded in the groove and creating an electrical signal which accurately recreates it. There's a lot of technology involved in the process which has been refined over many decades. Just being more expensive doesn't necessarily equate with better performance but truly high end performance and being able to achieve it doesn't come cheap. Of course you can still enjoy a lesser system but once an elite performer is heard it's hard to go back.

Yes. 

I don’t really understand the folks on this thread who say a good turntable makes a difference.
 

Do you need to spend $100K? No, I guess about $3K should do the job.
 

FWIW, I have a VPI HW MK IV with SAM, a Sumiko Premier MMT arm, and a Koetsu Onyx. It’s been working for me for a couple of decades. 

I think it comes down to what YOU can afford, what YOU consider a major difference and is it worth the cost?.

My first TT was a record changer with a ceramic cartridge. I made a brush which I taped to the end of the arm and it made what I considered to be at that time a major difference. The brush seemed to hold the cartridge which had more high frequency, air. Eventually I ended up with a Sota, separate arm MC cartridge which costed $3,5000.00  in 1992 dollars.

The improvements  I believe were less major but the total increments although slight are wonderful, in imaging. So in the end you'll end up living with it.

Also all the eventual choices and decisions in choices of turntables, arms, cartridges. cables, ect. ect. good luck make it fun and be happy with YOUR decisions!

A turntable’s job is not just to turn the platter at the prescribed speed. It also needs to isolate the platter from vibration and other outside forces. The tone arm has to carry the properly set up cartridge and make sure it tracks optimally. None of this is inexpensive. I went from an older Thorens TD160 to a VPI Scout 2, both with a Dynavector 10X2 and it was a night and day difference. The VPI is far better isolated and the tone arm tracks much better. Both were expertly set up by my retailer. This is still a fairly entry level system but the retail cost right now is probably over $3k. Not including cables and the phono stage. 

Yes.  Without starting a direct drive vs belt drive debate, just the facts as I have witnessed in my system and during demos.  

Started return to serious vinyl about 8 years ago, bought a very good high mass belt drive table and low output mc cartridge.  

Sounded very good but it was occasionally disappointing.  Sound could be dull, thick and an occasional note waver.  

Did full on research, dealer and audio show visits.  Wanted more dynamics and energy in the sound.  

Tried the low mass belt drive highly regarded table and was severely disappointed.  

Soft sound, good dynamics but occasional speed waver.  About that time the new Technics 1200 were released.  Read about the high energy sound that breathes life into tired vinyl.  

Tested the 1200 G and GR, bought the GR on the spot.

Fast forward to my vinyl destination system, 1200 GR, Lyra Delos cartridge and Sutherland 20 20 phono stage. 

The speed, energy, dynamics, detail and stability of my best digital sources with the smoothness of vinyl.  Dramatic improvement.  Cartridge is very important too. For the past several years I do not even think about speed wavering, low energy vinyl.  I just enjoy the music and the sound.  Every time I put a record on.  

@newbee …”ghprentice, I suspect I might, just might mind you, be much more anal than you when it comes to vinyl.”

😊👍… I think everyone is!… what is the opposite of anal? That is me.

@slaw - thanks. +1 on Bozz Scaggs and Aimee Mann!

Whenever vinyl is discussed, the importance of VTA and VtF are discussed, but not the #1 issue - effective length and mass. Tracing error is 100% a function of arm length. Shibata and Microline styli with their very thin stylus profile simply cannot perform, optimally on a shorter tonearm like a Rega. The geometry prevents it. For those arms, stick with a more forgiving elliptical or even conical (Denon DL103). If you want to use a Shibata or Microline stylus, the the tonearm needs to be at least 10+ inches. My VPI JMW 10.5 is a marvelous match with a Hana SH both in lower tracing error and arm mass. I have not heard the Hana sound as good when used with shorter or lower mass arms. Conversely, the higher mass of a 12" transcription tonearm requires a low compliance moving coil cartridge to get the resonance in an acceptable 8-10 Hz range. Back in the day the ADC XLM was the epitome of a high compliance cart, and would not match well with the very popular SME III arm. But, in the pencil-thin ultra low-mass Grace 707, it could be great. Once you get those fundamentals under control, then tweaking VTA, stylus rake, and azimuth can be set properly. Long answer but yes, you can make big improvements in your turntable, but only if you approach it as a whole system.

Spend major bucks get a big improvement.

There is a greater sense of space between instruments with digital and a more clearly defined presentation. A reversal of what it was prior to my upgrading my digital gear.

I think the OP should tell us in what respects his digital set-up outperforms his analog. We don't know what to address absent that.

Good explanation, @yoyoyaya 

@rudyb - that is a gross mis-characterisation of the function of a turntable. The best description of the function of a turntable that I have hears is Touraj Moghaddam's statement that it's function is "to measure the groove with respect to time". Anything that interferes with or corrupts that measurement will impact on the accuracy of reproduction - including resonances or sources of noise anywhere within the system or any inccuracies in the temporal component. Eliminating all of those is a non trivial engineering challenge.

The only function of a turntable is to rotate your disk at exactly 33 1/3 rpm. I assume you already have low wow, flutter and rumble. If so, how do you think it could further improve the sound?

Just like in real estate its location,  location, location, in analog its set up, set up, set up.  If its not set up correctly and yes small differences matter, the quality of the equipment will not shine through.  I agree that you need the equipment and know how to do it yourself. Its part of the fun.  If you don't have the patience or desire, best to stick with digital.  Call me sceptical but no one else is going to do it as well as you, assuming that is you know what you're doing.

i've not heard any other 'tables make as dramatic a difference as what i heard listening to the ELP. 

VTA, tracking force and alignment are everything!   I’m pretty sure this is why some people buy an album like a 180 gram or 200 gram and give totally different reviews on the sound quality of it.  One says it sounded very dull and lacked highs and dynamics.  Another loves it and has pretty much the same table and/or turntable.  Just depends on how it’s set up.  Learning to tweak the table takes a while but with a decent system you can hear all the little changes you make.  As someone else mentioned you have to learn to do it yourself to get the most from your table. 

@mglik 

"In fact, the RP8 will get you 90%+ of the 10. And either can be compared to tables costing much, much more.

The 6 is also good, but definitely worthwhile to go for the 8."

Yes, the RP8 is an awesome deck.

Compared to any Rega 3 you will hear big improvements in image size (esp height) and depth plus bandwidth.

Of course the RP8 is not the only turntable that can do that...

Budget decks simply have to make serious compromises, all of them.

I think it's fair to say that most of these compromises seem to center around a lack of deep bass.

@rvpiano The one limitation with Rega table/arm is fixed VTA.. When I replaced a worn out shelter 501 with Ortofon Quintet black on my RP6 I was very disappointed with the sound and was not hearing anything that glowing reviews said about quintet black. Ortofon being much taller than shelter was the problem. I had to raise the arm base by almost 5mm to get it sound better but still not the sound I was used to with Shelter. Once I replaced RB303 with Audiomods Series VI arm with micrometer, quintet came to life. It sounds excellent now. The only other mod done to the table was replacing stock subplatter with groovetracer.

As other have said, isolation/leveling is extremely critical. Regas don't like sitting on heavy  platforms. 

I am a confessed analog snob.

Waited 50 years to build a destination TT, arm, cartridge and phono stage.

Built my current system around a beautiful Woodsong Garrard 301.

Changed everything!

I have always loved Rega. Enjoyed my P1 that still gave me a big taste of great analog sound. Was very interested in the RP8/10. In fact, the RP8 will get you 90%+ of the 10. And either can be compared to tables costing much, much more.

The 6 is also good, but definitely worthwhile to go for the 8.

Your 20/20 ps and Hana cartridge are a very good match for a RP8.

Are you sure that your turntable is the reason why your analog sounds inferior to the digital?  I'm pretty sure that a better turntable would improve the listening experience, but will it get you where you want to go?  It is very difficult to test this "better turntable" theory.  Once you are sure that your turntable/arm/cartridge are setup correctly, what comes next?  I would think that you would then need to purchase a new turntable/arm and mount the Hana.  Prior to this, you might want to investigate what I found to be the issue in my system consisting of 20/20LPT and Hana.  See if you can find a local dealer willing to let you A/B your Sutherland in their store.  Let them know what listening experience you are after.  Make sure that the phono stage is capable of a fluid musical presentation.  Likely they will go for broke with the A/B, but at least you will hear the Sutherland under ideal conditions.  If the Sutherland holds up, then you will need to establish a turntable budget and decide where to go from there.  My Technics SL-1200G with my present setup now bests my Holo DAC DTE, where the Holo use to be much superior to my analog setup. Currently,  I'm sure that my Technics is the weak link, but at this point my bank account is even a weaker link.  BTW...everyone told me that my problem could not possibly be the 20/20 and I just needed to let it break in..and I did...that I needed better power.. so I spent a fortune on conditioner and power cables.  Then, against advice, I got rid of my 11/2 month old Sutherland and went for a more musical phono stage.  I'm being vague here because I'm sure that you can make such an upgrade in a much more cost effective way then what I did. I've only had the new to me phono stage for a few days, but it only took a few seconds to hear a a major improvement in musicality.  That first day I went from Ella and through two Billies and a dozen other male and female vocalist as well as rock and classical.  Everything about the presentation improved in a big way.

RV be patience on your analog set up at the end with all your hard work it will pay off.

Since I have both digital and analog set up. Both set up are equally good for my taste.If I have time to sit down and listen without interruption, I prefer vynil. It took many yrs before I jump into vynil.I heard a good analog set up at audiophile house during a visit to a friend house. I was shocked.  I went home I was struggling to listen to my digital set up. It’s like the emotional feeling of the music all over my being is missing on my system. That’s when I knew analog is amazing if it’s set up and match correctly.Changing phono Cables helps as well.with Sutherland 20/20 . The LPS brings improvement on 2020 as well.

I must add, regarding yoyoyaya’s post, for many years it was no contest that my analog side outperformed my digital.  It wasn’t til quite recently that digital became so exceptional that it surpassed records. 
I guess I have a very high standard in the sound I want, and probably will have to pay for it.

I have a completely restored Thorens TD-125 with a Saec WE-308L tonearm and Technics EPC-U205 mkIII cartridge w/a new Jico SAS boron Stylus.  A huge plus to the phono system is being able to adjust the VTA on the fly.  I purchased a Fonolab tonearm adjustment mechanism.  Very simple cool item that took the tonearm to a new level.  Records are so varied in thickness now.  From very thin to 200 gram vinyl and adjusting from the different thicknesses makes all the difference in the world.  A record can sound dull and with a simple adjustment on the fly it becomes detailed and dynamic.  Or it can sound too bright and harsh and adjusting the toney down a hint makes it sound full and smooth and brings the bass in.  

A good preamp is also soooo important!  I had a very modified Cary Audio AE-3 phono pre in a larger chassis with a separate PS. It had the best Mundorf caps and extremely modified.  It was really good but then I picked up an old Theta Tube Preamp that I’ve converted to just a phono preamp.  I completely updated and rebuilt the PS board in it and installed a few hundred microfarad’s of Polypropylene Solan caps and a separate PS with a new toroidal power transformer and choke input and large value electrolytic and propylene caps. It takes about 3 days to fully charge and sound its best so it’s on all the time.  The phono and gain section have V-Cap TFT (teflon) caps and StealthCap Caps.  It now sounds more detailed and smother with a wider sound stage then my digital system which is fairly elaborate setup also.  Both are enjoyable but I really love and prefer the analog system now. 
 

Big areas of importance (but not all of course) are the turntable, isolation, tonearm, VTA, cartridge and type of cantilever/stylus, phono preamp and of course an excellent line stage.  I have a custom built hand-wired balanced line stage based on the Cary Audio SLP-05 but with a huge separate PS and all Mundorf EVO silver/gold/oil caps in the signal path.  My balanced output DAC feeds into the line preamp and the Theta Tube Phono preamp feed into the line stage and is converted to a balanced signal to my amps. 

My reintroduction to vinyl was a rega p3 and dynavector 10x3 cartridge.  The synergy with the tonearm was the key.  Had the opportunity to buy a higher level dynavector cart that someone brought back a few months after purchase to upgrade.   Sounded awful and went back to 10x3. The rega tonearm was a great value in its price range but not up to demanding cartridges 

@OP. It depends on how good your digital is. Back in the 80s when CD appeared a Rega 3 would obliterate the players that are available.

That's not the case any longer. Small volume mechanical engineering costs lots of money so, arguably, its become more expensive to make system improvements in the analogue domain than in digital.

I upgraded table and arm in a controlled circumstance-- same room, system and phono cartridge. The difference with the better table/arm set up-- fewer sonic artifacts from the better table/arm combo. 
Sometimes, it is hard to discern an artifact until it is gone. 

For example, the "halo" of sound that I often associated with record play is simply absent on the bigger, high mass table and linear arm--

The bass is better too, but to fully appreciate that,

I needed to augment the bass reproducing capabilities of my system-- 

Now in a bigger room, with additional subwoofers.

And the thing that really made a difference was a change of cartridge-- not so much fancier or more expensive, just different voicing. If I had made that cartridge change with a different table/arm and without the bigger room/augmented subwoofers, would it have been as dramatic? I doubt it--but it took more than just a change of cartridge or table to get to this point. The improvements were cumulative. Is that true in every system/circumstance?

I don't know. 

Look for a great vintage manual table that was issued with a great tonearm and see if you note a difference. If you buy a good one and there is no difference you will always be able to sell it for the same amount or possibly more. The JVC QL7 would be an example of such a table. I’m guessing $400-600 would get you a good one. There are others but you will pay more for other more highly recognized makers and not have much if any significant benefit.

RV, something to consider that I've failed to mention. I don't know if my experience is unique or if it is something that other attentive audiophiles have had to deal with. Back in the day when vinyl was my primary source of music I had a fairly good (near SOTA) system but not a particularly fine, and comprehensive, collection of music.

I finally started to pay attention to digital in the 90's and concurrently started ignoring vinyl. All the new (to me perhaps), unexplored, music was coming out on CD's so I followed it. I tuned my system to get digital listenable and I succeeded (I think) but, interestingly the changes I introduced seem to degrade my vinyl system's reproduction (not that much perhaps) so it was easy to continue to ignore my records and just play CD's.  Being unable to get both sources on equal footing I simply gave my analog system (and records) to my grandson-in-law and moved on with just fond memories of the greatness of vinyl.  He's happy and so am I. And, ultimately, digital is so plug and play as opposed to the set up AND maintenance of a vinyl system so I have more time and less to worry about.

ghprentice, I suspect I might, just might mind you, be much more anal than you when it comes to vinyl. :-)

problem with this thread, this question asked, is different people would not easily agree on what is 'dramatic'... 

@rvpiano

I think I can add my $0.02 here since some of the components are similar.
I’m using Hana ML with Sutherland KC Vibe Mk2. When I purchased the Hana my digital front end was Lumin U1 Mini and Benchmark DAC 3 HGC.

Turntable is MoFi UltraDeck and I used Dr. Feichert protractor to align the Hana ML cart.

Compared to Lumin/Benchmark the analog set up had sweeter sound with wider soundstage. The detail retrieval is on par with digital just different presentation.  Overall more relaxed and natural sounding but slightly trailing behind the benchmark in dynamics and bass drive and impact.
The analog combo was so good that it prompted the DAC upgrade as it had exposed some not so great traits of the benchmark DAC.

One other thing…prior to MoFi UltraDeck I owned Rega P2. The MoFi is a significant step up in build, features and sound quality. Rega’s lack of VTA adjustment alone is a deal breaker when you’re talking about going to better non-rega cartridges. Yes you can use spacers but still not comparable.

My phone and turntable were awesome upgrades. When I added a wood isolation platform under my table it was a drastic upgrade. And my Solid Steel Rack I had thought was already handling business. Add isolation it was a stellar upgrade. 

All turntables sound different, so you may be very pleased with one and so disappointed in another. I have "wasted" a lot of money on this saga and I have reached a point where I am happy vs my digital set up. I am dragged into long listening sessions with analogue and it takes up time getting up and down and selecting records and then cleaning them afterwards.. In a world that I could "queue up " records I would prefer analogue. But we do not have that. Now ... an invention that could stack LP's on a high end system ... that would be a winner!!

The arm and the table are significant in turns of the performance of the system.

I have on many occasions, over many years, compared the Vinyl LP Source to the CD Source.

These Sources have been experienced on my own system and on many other Set Ups.

I was not convinced of CD, being a Source I could settle with, throughout the bulk of the period I sought out these comparison experiences    

Things Change, it was recently 2017/2018 that I have introduced a CD Source into my own system as a Front End that is as satisfactory to use as the Vinyl Source.

I have been Wed to seeking out Musical Encounters for more than 40 Years, and Wed to Vinyl as one of the methods for close to 40 years. I was very late in the availability of CD to discover a method that produced an attractive to myself replay.   

Neither are equal, and neither is IMO, relating to the choices I have made, better that the other.

I have come to a place where each Source has their attractors, and each are totally capable of creating a listening experience that is wanted to be encountered again.

For myself, I am not sure if there is anything else between these two sources needing to be worked on to separate them.

I am aware when attempting to get a Vinyl Set Up to Jump in improved performance, that is noticeable, there is usually a substantial outlay required to acquire the ancillaries.

The CD Source does not, IME of using it, seem to incur comparative costs, to show an improvement. 

I could be a little wrong in my assessment of monies required, as I have not been seeking change in any substantial way for nearly five years.      

The turntable itself won't make a much difference at all but a different cartridge will mostly likely do so. The turntable's job is to spin a record at a certain speed and all good ones will do that but there are many variations with cartridges.

Digital is like tracing a picture. Analog is like drawing from one.

The tracing is accurate but a bit lifeless. Analog is less accurate, yes, but full of life.

A stylus reacts to a sharp noise reproduction in the recording with almost a violent shock within the groove. How is that ever going to be accurate! But it’s an event that creates magic. And it’s been honed through many years of improvement. It’s just a more emotional experience. The sins of digital are subtractive. The sins of analog are additive. To me, one is really not better than the other...pick your poison.

I have a decent digital side. My turntable more than edges out my digital but not always. 

Oddly some recordings sound nearly identical. Rare is it when the digital album beats the analog one.

But I have to agree with set up being key. My analog side is Technics 1200G>AT33PTGII>Hagerman Trumpet MC>Don Sachs Model 2.  preamp. Certainly not high end but it was when I used a thicker mat to zero in on VTA that I got things dialed in. Careful set up is key.

Fi d yourself a used lp12 if you want to kill the Rega for not much money  find an itok Valhalla  or better huge improvement  over the Rega. 

Somehow records sound better to us humans.  However they are not true to the original recording.  Limited bandwidth, crosstalk, distortion. 

But Somehow we humans like the it, just like tube amplifiers. 

Remember when setting up that changing VTF also changes VTA so you have to reset VTA every time you change VTF.

OP,

Wow. Ok. You really have no excuses. Get your butt out there and use some people skills and find a great dealer, if you lived in central Louisiana or Northern Oklahoma… but New York? You should be ashamed of yourself. I spent lots of time out there. You have the world at your feet. If you can’t communicate with someone from New York, go to Overture in Delaware… they are fantastic. I flew out there to see what they could do for me.

Honestly, this is a problem of your own making. You have all the resources of the world at your feet to solve it.

I had always heard great things about the Rega RP6 with the Exact2 cartridge, so I bought one.  I also purchased a Pass labs Xp15 phono stage to go with the rest of my system; CJ ET5 preamp and CJ tube amps.  My CD player is a Modwright Oppo 105D.

Every time I played an album on the RP6, I got ticked off.  So ticked off that I wanted to throw a sneaker at it.  It sounded awful, terrible, lousy.

I went to my stereo store (Goodwin's High End in Mass.)   The rep basically told me that if I wanted to get better analog sound, I was going to have to spend a lot more money, and if I didn't do that, he suggested selling the analog stuff and getting out of it entirely and upgrading my CD playback/DAC.

I went from a Rega Rp6 with a MM cartridge to the RP10 with the Apheta 2 MC cartridge.  I could tell in the first 30 seconds of the first song that I made the right decision.  The music sounded great, the soundstage was there, and the dynamics were incredible.  I am very happy with the sound of my analog playback, and when I want to listen, really listen, to music, I always fire up the turntable-- it's that much better.

The overall cost of the RP10 with the Apheta 2 and the Pass Xp15 was about $7,500.  That was a lot of money for me, and it was worth every cent.

So, I went the "great value" route with my TT and cartridge and wanted to throw a sneaker.  When I listen to my upgraded TT and cartridge,  I want to throw a party.

Whatever work for you, your ears and your budget.  My only advice is to avoid incremental changes; it's more expensive in the long run.  Make bigger jumps on individual pieces of gear.  You have to guess right, but it worked for me.