Does a turntable make a DRAMATIC difference?

A better turntable / arm ( and well sited rack wise ) WILL make a major difference. You might want to quantify 'major bucks' but it will be costly as compared to an RP3. 

What I mean by major bucks is spending on a better phono amplifier and cartridge plus a new turntable.

no it won't make a big difference.....it "might" make a difference you might like or not, but nothing approaching a big difference.

@rvpiano ,

I think that now since you have acquired a new phono stage and cartridge, you’re rightfully realizing that the current table is the weak link. Now matter what, a great support is necessary.

Vinyl is a major investment, so you have to be committed. There are some great tables out their now, fairly reasonable. The MOFI, Merrill, SOTA... To name a few.

I just returned my Sutherland 20/20 Mk2 LPT to Music Direct because my new Holo May DAC DTE sounded much better than my analog. I have a Technics SL-1200G and Hana ML. I also have a tube preamp and I'm guessing that your taste in sound presentation is similar to my preferences.  The Sutherland in my system lacked dynamics and was harsh in the upper range of the female voice. It also lacked the microdynamics that makes voice so wonderful. I changed out preamps, but will be selling a car to fund. Now, voice is sweet and detailed and dynamics are much improved. I wonder what a better arm, turntable or cartridge would do, but I can’t afford to sell another car.

Digital is getting much better and analog can keep up, or better, but the price of admission is steep. I’m leaving things as is for now because a substantial arm/turntable improvement is costly, but I know that this is my weak link, but the music is now fluid and rich.. Phono stages make a big difference.

Is your tonearm level when playing a record? Your arm has no VTA adjustment and there is no standard cartridge height. Maybe the Hana isn’t a good fit. Improper VTA can affect performance.

FWIW, IMHO, the parts used to assemble a very good analog system are secondary to a competent set up, and maintenance of the set up once achieved. Reliance on a retailer to achieve this is often futile unless the retailer is an acknowledged turntable expert and is willing to expend the effort on you and your system. Bottom line in this respect is you should expect to become proficient in handling all of the issues involved yourself if you really want to improve your system. Not a small task, but potentially very rewarding.

You presently have good stuff and I suspect, just suspect mind you, that if you took control of set up yourself, you might come close to achieving you results you want at minimum expense. For example VTA is critical, close enuf is not good enuf, and its best done by ear after initial set up. Likewise VTF. All of this assumes proper matching of cartridge and tone arm are had. You should also insure that your turntable speed is correct and stable. (An area where quartz TT’s, as opposed to belt driven ones, can excel and have meters of some sort to indicate that your speed is properly set. Also the ability to shift speed a tad can help you tune absolute pitch which is skewered in the recording (it happens). Belt driven tables can be a bit difficult - i.e. rubber belts (when used) are not only subject to expansion and contraction but they wear out. As I mentioned in a previous post thickness of the record you most frequency use is critical - too thick or thin of a record will change your VTA and to hear them at their best you have to adjust your VTA and/or VTF.

This just scratches the surface of the issues involved. Another might be for someone with angst problems is analog systems have more tweaks (including things like headshell wires which in my opinion are of overlooked importance judged by the fact that they are still very cheap and rarely discussed) available than you can imagine and some of them ARE important, one of which is dealing with obtaining correct isolation for your system.

To be (too, perhaps) blunt, if you can’t get involved in the proper set up/maintenance of a high end vinyl system by doing the work yourself I highly recommend that you adjust to the differences between what you have and what you might have, enjoy your vinyl undisturbed and learn, once again, to sit back and enjoy what brought you to audio in the first place, i.e. the music.

That said, I appreciate that you are/were a professional musician and you may think you have heard it all and have become a bit bored. I know I did. But I hadn’t - I spend a lot of time now listening to music with which I had little familiarity but have learned to enjoy. The up side of this is now, when I do pick out a Beethoven Symphony for example, I appreciate it so much more. The availability of chamber music and music for the solo piano for me to explore just bobble my little brain! :-)

Good luck RV.

I fear I may well fit in that latter category.

I just want to enjoy the music.

I know the RP3 pretty well. Don't know what your mods did, but I do know the RP3 is not even close to higher tables. Spending on the turntable and the phono both can be harder to justify versus say a cart change but it all matters...

Everyone's definition of "DRAMATIC" is going to be different.

 A "heavily modified" Rega will be left in the dust against a P8/10.

I wouldn't bother with non Rega carts, since they're optimized for its own arm. If you didn't purchase the cart yet-Apheta. 3 screws and set tracking force-you're done.

Rega is definitely a "just enjoy music on LPs" kinda table.

Agree.

Interesting question. At the surface, yes absolutely. Audiophile tables and associated gear are a real step up ($5K level is trounced by $10k level, which is trounced by the $20K level, which… you get the idea. But..

You should be getting very good performance out of what you have. While at the budget / mid-fi side of things, it should sound better. This is where vinyl really gives digital the run for the money. I agree mostly with @newbee. Initial setup needs to be done right. I disagree about maintenance. There should be no maintenance in between cartridges.

Sounds like we agree on audio equipment. I don’t want to fiddle, just listen to music. That is what I do. I would not mod anything. I don’t touch it, except to use.

I recommend finding a competent dealer. Pay him to come out and optimize your system. I know the perfect guy if you live around Portland Oregon. I could see this being a “would you optimize”… “wow that sounds great”… “I’d like to upgrade”.

My rule of thumb is 2x to 3x cost. If I were you I would upgrade table… I used to have a low level Rega. It did not last long in my system. I now have a Linn LP12. I love the sound and the fact that I can do incremental upgrades to bring it up to a high end $30K table (mine is close). My dealer loves turntables… he loves setting them up, and knows exactly what it should sound like. If I want an upgrade he comes out (spends the afternoon chatting with me) and brings it back with upgrades, verifies it sounds perfect. Did I mention it is a good thing to have a good relationship with your dealer?

Unfortunately, there is a dearth of customer oriented dealers in my area (Long Island, NY). I get the feeling that all they want is your money. It’s a very major metropolitan area. You would think it would be different. I get envious reading here about dealers in smaller markets that are so solicitous.

You may just prefer digital.

I had always heard great things about the Rega RP6 with the Exact2 cartridge, so I bought one.  I also purchased a Pass labs Xp15 phono stage to go with the rest of my system; CJ ET5 preamp and CJ tube amps.  My CD player is a Modwright Oppo 105D.

Every time I played an album on the RP6, I got ticked off.  So ticked off that I wanted to throw a sneaker at it.  It sounded awful, terrible, lousy.

I went to my stereo store (Goodwin's High End in Mass.)   The rep basically told me that if I wanted to get better analog sound, I was going to have to spend a lot more money, and if I didn't do that, he suggested selling the analog stuff and getting out of it entirely and upgrading my CD playback/DAC.

I went from a Rega Rp6 with a MM cartridge to the RP10 with the Apheta 2 MC cartridge.  I could tell in the first 30 seconds of the first song that I made the right decision.  The music sounded great, the soundstage was there, and the dynamics were incredible.  I am very happy with the sound of my analog playback, and when I want to listen, really listen, to music, I always fire up the turntable-- it's that much better.

The overall cost of the RP10 with the Apheta 2 and the Pass Xp15 was about $7,500.  That was a lot of money for me, and it was worth every cent.

So, I went the "great value" route with my TT and cartridge and wanted to throw a sneaker.  When I listen to my upgraded TT and cartridge,  I want to throw a party.

Whatever work for you, your ears and your budget.  My only advice is to avoid incremental changes; it's more expensive in the long run.  Make bigger jumps on individual pieces of gear.  You have to guess right, but it worked for me.

OP,

Wow. Ok. You really have no excuses. Get your butt out there and use some people skills and find a great dealer, if you lived in central Louisiana or Northern Oklahoma… but New York? You should be ashamed of yourself. I spent lots of time out there. You have the world at your feet. If you can’t communicate with someone from New York, go to Overture in Delaware… they are fantastic. I flew out there to see what they could do for me.

Honestly, this is a problem of your own making. You have all the resources of the world at your feet to solve it.

Remember when setting up that changing VTF also changes VTA so you have to reset VTA every time you change VTF.

Somehow records sound better to us humans.  However they are not true to the original recording.  Limited bandwidth, crosstalk, distortion. 

But Somehow we humans like the it, just like tube amplifiers. 

Fi d yourself a used lp12 if you want to kill the Rega for not much money  find an itok Valhalla  or better huge improvement  over the Rega. 

I have a decent digital side. My turntable more than edges out my digital but not always. 

Oddly some recordings sound nearly identical. Rare is it when the digital album beats the analog one.

But I have to agree with set up being key. My analog side is Technics 1200G>AT33PTGII>Hagerman Trumpet MC>Don Sachs Model 2.  preamp. Certainly not high end but it was when I used a thicker mat to zero in on VTA that I got things dialed in. Careful set up is key.

Digital is like tracing a picture. Analog is like drawing from one.

The tracing is accurate but a bit lifeless. Analog is less accurate, yes, but full of life.

A stylus reacts to a sharp noise reproduction in the recording with almost a violent shock within the groove. How is that ever going to be accurate! But it’s an event that creates magic. And it’s been honed through many years of improvement. It’s just a more emotional experience. The sins of digital are subtractive. The sins of analog are additive. To me, one is really not better than the other...pick your poison.

The turntable itself won't make a much difference at all but a different cartridge will mostly likely do so. The turntable's job is to spin a record at a certain speed and all good ones will do that but there are many variations with cartridges.

I have on many occasions, over many years, compared the Vinyl LP Source to the CD Source.

These Sources have been experienced on my own system and on many other Set Ups.

I was not convinced of CD, being a Source I could settle with, throughout the bulk of the period I sought out these comparison experiences    

Things Change, it was recently 2017/2018 that I have introduced a CD Source into my own system as a Front End that is as satisfactory to use as the Vinyl Source.

I have been Wed to seeking out Musical Encounters for more than 40 Years, and Wed to Vinyl as one of the methods for close to 40 years. I was very late in the availability of CD to discover a method that produced an attractive to myself replay.   

Neither are equal, and neither is IMO, relating to the choices I have made, better that the other.

I have come to a place where each Source has their attractors, and each are totally capable of creating a listening experience that is wanted to be encountered again.

For myself, I am not sure if there is anything else between these two sources needing to be worked on to separate them.

I am aware when attempting to get a Vinyl Set Up to Jump in improved performance, that is noticeable, there is usually a substantial outlay required to acquire the ancillaries.

The CD Source does not, IME of using it, seem to incur comparative costs, to show an improvement. 

I could be a little wrong in my assessment of monies required, as I have not been seeking change in any substantial way for nearly five years.      

The arm and the table are significant in turns of the performance of the system.

All turntables sound different, so you may be very pleased with one and so disappointed in another. I have "wasted" a lot of money on this saga and I have reached a point where I am happy vs my digital set up. I am dragged into long listening sessions with analogue and it takes up time getting up and down and selecting records and then cleaning them afterwards.. In a world that I could "queue up " records I would prefer analogue. But we do not have that. Now ... an invention that could stack LP's on a high end system ... that would be a winner!!

My phone and turntable were awesome upgrades. When I added a wood isolation platform under my table it was a drastic upgrade. And my Solid Steel Rack I had thought was already handling business. Add isolation it was a stellar upgrade. 

@rvpiano

I think I can add my $0.02 here since some of the components are similar.
I’m using Hana ML with Sutherland KC Vibe Mk2. When I purchased the Hana my digital front end was Lumin U1 Mini and Benchmark DAC 3 HGC.

Turntable is MoFi UltraDeck and I used Dr. Feichert protractor to align the Hana ML cart.

Compared to Lumin/Benchmark the analog set up had sweeter sound with wider soundstage. The detail retrieval is on par with digital just different presentation.  Overall more relaxed and natural sounding but slightly trailing behind the benchmark in dynamics and bass drive and impact.
The analog combo was so good that it prompted the DAC upgrade as it had exposed some not so great traits of the benchmark DAC.

One other thing…prior to MoFi UltraDeck I owned Rega P2. The MoFi is a significant step up in build, features and sound quality. Rega’s lack of VTA adjustment alone is a deal breaker when you’re talking about going to better non-rega cartridges. Yes you can use spacers but still not comparable.

problem with this thread, this question asked, is different people would not easily agree on what is 'dramatic'... 

RV, something to consider that I've failed to mention. I don't know if my experience is unique or if it is something that other attentive audiophiles have had to deal with. Back in the day when vinyl was my primary source of music I had a fairly good (near SOTA) system but not a particularly fine, and comprehensive, collection of music.

I finally started to pay attention to digital in the 90's and concurrently started ignoring vinyl. All the new (to me perhaps), unexplored, music was coming out on CD's so I followed it. I tuned my system to get digital listenable and I succeeded (I think) but, interestingly the changes I introduced seem to degrade my vinyl system's reproduction (not that much perhaps) so it was easy to continue to ignore my records and just play CD's.  Being unable to get both sources on equal footing I simply gave my analog system (and records) to my grandson-in-law and moved on with just fond memories of the greatness of vinyl.  He's happy and so am I. And, ultimately, digital is so plug and play as opposed to the set up AND maintenance of a vinyl system so I have more time and less to worry about.

ghprentice, I suspect I might, just might mind you, be much more anal than you when it comes to vinyl. :-)

Look for a great vintage manual table that was issued with a great tonearm and see if you note a difference. If you buy a good one and there is no difference you will always be able to sell it for the same amount or possibly more. The JVC QL7 would be an example of such a table. I’m guessing $400-600 would get you a good one. There are others but you will pay more for other more highly recognized makers and not have much if any significant benefit.

I upgraded table and arm in a controlled circumstance-- same room, system and phono cartridge. The difference with the better table/arm set up-- fewer sonic artifacts from the better table/arm combo. 
Sometimes, it is hard to discern an artifact until it is gone. 

For example, the "halo" of sound that I often associated with record play is simply absent on the bigger, high mass table and linear arm--

The bass is better too, but to fully appreciate that,

I needed to augment the bass reproducing capabilities of my system-- 

Now in a bigger room, with additional subwoofers.

And the thing that really made a difference was a change of cartridge-- not so much fancier or more expensive, just different voicing. If I had made that cartridge change with a different table/arm and without the bigger room/augmented subwoofers, would it have been as dramatic? I doubt it--but it took more than just a change of cartridge or table to get to this point. The improvements were cumulative. Is that true in every system/circumstance?

I don't know. 

@OP. It depends on how good your digital is. Back in the 80s when CD appeared a Rega 3 would obliterate the players that are available.

That's not the case any longer. Small volume mechanical engineering costs lots of money so, arguably, its become more expensive to make system improvements in the analogue domain than in digital.

My reintroduction to vinyl was a rega p3 and dynavector 10x3 cartridge.  The synergy with the tonearm was the key.  Had the opportunity to buy a higher level dynavector cart that someone brought back a few months after purchase to upgrade.   Sounded awful and went back to 10x3. The rega tonearm was a great value in its price range but not up to demanding cartridges 

I have a completely restored Thorens TD-125 with a Saec WE-308L tonearm and Technics EPC-U205 mkIII cartridge w/a new Jico SAS boron Stylus.  A huge plus to the phono system is being able to adjust the VTA on the fly.  I purchased a Fonolab tonearm adjustment mechanism.  Very simple cool item that took the tonearm to a new level.  Records are so varied in thickness now.  From very thin to 200 gram vinyl and adjusting from the different thicknesses makes all the difference in the world.  A record can sound dull and with a simple adjustment on the fly it becomes detailed and dynamic.  Or it can sound too bright and harsh and adjusting the toney down a hint makes it sound full and smooth and brings the bass in.  

A good preamp is also soooo important!  I had a very modified Cary Audio AE-3 phono pre in a larger chassis with a separate PS. It had the best Mundorf caps and extremely modified.  It was really good but then I picked up an old Theta Tube Preamp that I’ve converted to just a phono preamp.  I completely updated and rebuilt the PS board in it and installed a few hundred microfarad’s of Polypropylene Solan caps and a separate PS with a new toroidal power transformer and choke input and large value electrolytic and propylene caps. It takes about 3 days to fully charge and sound its best so it’s on all the time.  The phono and gain section have V-Cap TFT (teflon) caps and StealthCap Caps.  It now sounds more detailed and smother with a wider sound stage then my digital system which is fairly elaborate setup also.  Both are enjoyable but I really love and prefer the analog system now. 
 

Big areas of importance (but not all of course) are the turntable, isolation, tonearm, VTA, cartridge and type of cantilever/stylus, phono preamp and of course an excellent line stage.  I have a custom built hand-wired balanced line stage based on the Cary Audio SLP-05 but with a huge separate PS and all Mundorf EVO silver/gold/oil caps in the signal path.  My balanced output DAC feeds into the line preamp and the Theta Tube Phono preamp feed into the line stage and is converted to a balanced signal to my amps. 

I must add, regarding yoyoyaya’s post, for many years it was no contest that my analog side outperformed my digital.  It wasn’t til quite recently that digital became so exceptional that it surpassed records. 
I guess I have a very high standard in the sound I want, and probably will have to pay for it.

Since I have both digital and analog set up. Both set up are equally good for my taste.If I have time to sit down and listen without interruption, I prefer vynil. It took many yrs before I jump into vynil.I heard a good analog set up at audiophile house during a visit to a friend house. I was shocked.  I went home I was struggling to listen to my digital set up. It’s like the emotional feeling of the music all over my being is missing on my system. That’s when I knew analog is amazing if it’s set up and match correctly.Changing phono Cables helps as well.with Sutherland 20/20 . The LPS brings improvement on 2020 as well.

RV be patience on your analog set up at the end with all your hard work it will pay off.

Are you sure that your turntable is the reason why your analog sounds inferior to the digital?  I'm pretty sure that a better turntable would improve the listening experience, but will it get you where you want to go?  It is very difficult to test this "better turntable" theory.  Once you are sure that your turntable/arm/cartridge are setup correctly, what comes next?  I would think that you would then need to purchase a new turntable/arm and mount the Hana.  Prior to this, you might want to investigate what I found to be the issue in my system consisting of 20/20LPT and Hana.  See if you can find a local dealer willing to let you A/B your Sutherland in their store.  Let them know what listening experience you are after.  Make sure that the phono stage is capable of a fluid musical presentation.  Likely they will go for broke with the A/B, but at least you will hear the Sutherland under ideal conditions.  If the Sutherland holds up, then you will need to establish a turntable budget and decide where to go from there.  My Technics SL-1200G with my present setup now bests my Holo DAC DTE, where the Holo use to be much superior to my analog setup. Currently,  I'm sure that my Technics is the weak link, but at this point my bank account is even a weaker link.  BTW...everyone told me that my problem could not possibly be the 20/20 and I just needed to let it break in..and I did...that I needed better power.. so I spent a fortune on conditioner and power cables.  Then, against advice, I got rid of my 11/2 month old Sutherland and went for a more musical phono stage.  I'm being vague here because I'm sure that you can make such an upgrade in a much more cost effective way then what I did. I've only had the new to me phono stage for a few days, but it only took a few seconds to hear a a major improvement in musicality.  That first day I went from Ella and through two Billies and a dozen other male and female vocalist as well as rock and classical.  Everything about the presentation improved in a big way.

I am a confessed analog snob.

Waited 50 years to build a destination TT, arm, cartridge and phono stage.

Built my current system around a beautiful Woodsong Garrard 301.

Changed everything!

I have always loved Rega. Enjoyed my P1 that still gave me a big taste of great analog sound. Was very interested in the RP8/10. In fact, the RP8 will get you 90%+ of the 10. And either can be compared to tables costing much, much more.

The 6 is also good, but definitely worthwhile to go for the 8.

Your 20/20 ps and Hana cartridge are a very good match for a RP8.

@rvpiano The one limitation with Rega table/arm is fixed VTA.. When I replaced a worn out shelter 501 with Ortofon Quintet black on my RP6 I was very disappointed with the sound and was not hearing anything that glowing reviews said about quintet black. Ortofon being much taller than shelter was the problem. I had to raise the arm base by almost 5mm to get it sound better but still not the sound I was used to with Shelter. Once I replaced RB303 with Audiomods Series VI arm with micrometer, quintet came to life. It sounds excellent now. The only other mod done to the table was replacing stock subplatter with groovetracer.

As other have said, isolation/leveling is extremely critical. Regas don't like sitting on heavy  platforms. 

@mglik 

"In fact, the RP8 will get you 90%+ of the 10. And either can be compared to tables costing much, much more.

The 6 is also good, but definitely worthwhile to go for the 8."

Yes, the RP8 is an awesome deck.

Compared to any Rega 3 you will hear big improvements in image size (esp height) and depth plus bandwidth.

Of course the RP8 is not the only turntable that can do that...

Budget decks simply have to make serious compromises, all of them.

I think it's fair to say that most of these compromises seem to center around a lack of deep bass.

VTA, tracking force and alignment are everything!   I’m pretty sure this is why some people buy an album like a 180 gram or 200 gram and give totally different reviews on the sound quality of it.  One says it sounded very dull and lacked highs and dynamics.  Another loves it and has pretty much the same table and/or turntable.  Just depends on how it’s set up.  Learning to tweak the table takes a while but with a decent system you can hear all the little changes you make.  As someone else mentioned you have to learn to do it yourself to get the most from your table. 

i've not heard any other 'tables make as dramatic a difference as what i heard listening to the ELP. 

Just like in real estate its location,  location, location, in analog its set up, set up, set up.  If its not set up correctly and yes small differences matter, the quality of the equipment will not shine through.  I agree that you need the equipment and know how to do it yourself. Its part of the fun.  If you don't have the patience or desire, best to stick with digital.  Call me sceptical but no one else is going to do it as well as you, assuming that is you know what you're doing.

The only function of a turntable is to rotate your disk at exactly 33 1/3 rpm. I assume you already have low wow, flutter and rumble. If so, how do you think it could further improve the sound?

@rudyb - that is a gross mis-characterisation of the function of a turntable. The best description of the function of a turntable that I have hears is Touraj Moghaddam's statement that it's function is "to measure the groove with respect to time". Anything that interferes with or corrupts that measurement will impact on the accuracy of reproduction - including resonances or sources of noise anywhere within the system or any inccuracies in the temporal component. Eliminating all of those is a non trivial engineering challenge.

Good explanation, @yoyoyaya 

I think the OP should tell us in what respects his digital set-up outperforms his analog. We don't know what to address absent that.