Nope.
Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?
It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
1,423 responses
@mahgister- your writing is dense and somewhat difficult to understand sometimes, but I think I have an idea based on my past experience. When I started playing in the studios in the 70’s, I thought I played pretty well, which I guess is why. I got hired. But I was shocked when I heard that my first playbacks sounded significantly different from what I thought I played. In other words- I was hearing what I thought I played, not what I actually played. It was only after many sessions I was able to train my ears/brain to hear what I was actually playing and make it sound identical to the taped playback. |
Yes it is. These forums seem to expose a herd mentality that mobilizes defenders of the faith when folks drive outside of the "acceptable" lane. Based on the comments in this thread, Amir and his measurements are clearly outside of the lane. Thanks for reminding us this is a hobby. |
Love this stuff, that’s what entertainment is all about. An audio debate with the same outcome, people sitting in the same seats as when started. Things get heated with monitors missing the odd name-calling and some ignorantly calling someone out only to have personal history and product slam the door on their point. It ain’t all bells, whistles, and pretty lights there is audio. Enjoy it.
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Yes, Amir has definitely changed my opinion on some gear. Take his work for the value it adds to our hobby, nothing more. His work is only one part of the equation however. You can still listen to the equipment, you can judge the quality of the build or the components, or you can simply like the looks. All of these matter. Why attack the guy who provides objective proof of certain factors based on solid electrical and physical principles? His measurements can clearly show in many cases that the piece of equipment cannot be capable of what the manufacturer or the hype says. There is far too much snake oil and fallacy in the audio hobby, and it's good to have something objective for at least one part of evaluating electronic gear. Yes, a piece of equipment can sound good and not measure well, those are not exclusive of each other in audio. Nobody is saying that you can measure how something sounds but it's absolute fact that some measurements can show capabilities of the electronics to do certain things. That is all it is. |
The "quality of our music reproduction equipment" can be effectively measured and evaluate in small room varying acoustic conditions...The gear dont manifest his quality directly to our brain bypassing the relations of the drivers speakers/room/ears...Then "taste" is then as you just say a meaningless subjective revendication as in a children case saying to his mother, i dont like pea soup but only chicken soup...Children must learn how to eat and why and must learn to use their taste..
Taste is a subjective right with no meaning outside ourself...Claiming it valid is simply refusing to learn about our own limitations and to learn how to listen... Crocodile taste and love only rotten meat...Mankind may and must learn cooking and the art of listening ... You probably dont even know how is the real potential S.Q. or defects of your system because they are not experienced in an optimally dedicated acoustic room conditions...Then our "taste" is a passive seating position, an abdication ... Some solve it by upgrades, but purchasing is most of the time also a passive attitude...It is the reason why some people to cure frustrations own tons of audio materials....I know because i purchase 10 headphones before learning the lesson... Taste must be educated, we are not crocodile...We must go active with simple listening experiments to learn about concept as reberberation time, timbre, dynamic, transients, immersiveness , sound sources differentiation and dimensions and many other concepts in experimenting with them .... In psycho-acoustic it is a principle to vary measures, electronical one or mechanical or acoustical one, to experience specific changes and their meaning correlation in relation to our biases and taste... My acoustic room for example was optimal for me, it cannot be for everyone...Because my head diameter and my ears geometry, and my gear and speakers and acoustic content in my room differ from yours, it isnot my taste the explanation here but acoustic ... acoustician dont create small room acoustic or great Hall acoustic with their "taste" but with their experiences... What other reason? Because small room acoustic of audiophile dont use time and timing waves or reflected waves and reverberation in the same way as in a great Hall and the gear and room must be adapted to one another for specific ears, and a great Hall is designed for a seating crowd...
Subjective is the origin, objective is a conquest...What is really beautiful is being able to relate consciously the two sides of the journey ...
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If we accept that the quality of our music reproduction equipment cannot be MEASURED, then we simply declared it ART or TASTE. The beauty is (and feeding our hobby), that is it now is totally subjective, since TASTE is the DEFINITION OF SUBJECTIVE. Therefore, I hereby declare that my $400 Onky with my speakers and my $100 CD player is the BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD irrespective of price. Now if ONE person here questions that, he/she does NOT get the point of what 'taste' is. It is SOLELEY 'in the eye of the beholder'. Even if you may argue that there thousands who disagree, I am stil right. Subjective is Beautiful.
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Amir's reviews did influence one or two of my purchasing decisions. Had I not read them, I might have focused on other components based on a few glowing, but mostly subjective opinions, or on what was available in a local HiFi shop. ASR alerted me to alternatives that (a) were less expensive, and (b) tested better. Example 1: I bought the Matrix Audio Element X (streamer/DAC) instead of the more expensive PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Example 2: I bought the Benchmark AHB2 instead of a locally-available power amp. Both the Element X and the AHB2 were sold with generous return policies, so I did get a chance to review features and "trust my ears" before making a final commitment. In any case, it wouldn't have been very practical (esp. since I live in a rural area) to personally compare dozens of alternatives, trusting only my ears, rather than winnowing down the choices by reading product reviews and test results. ASR isn't the only source I considered. I read product reviews and owner comments. Many of them seemed to be mutually reinforcing enough to make a try-out worthwhile. Before committing to the Element X, I did order one other DAC/streamer, which I returned. |
Jjss49-ah, you are a gullable sheep that doesn’t use your ears nor your brain, no wonder you like ASR and the clown in the WH. I’ve only watched snippets of ASR because he’s hard to watch. I watched the video where he went after GR Research which he looked like a fool, the other times, he wanted to promote a cheap product and wanted to degrade a more expensive product. In all audio equipment, there are a few measurements that I look at before I buy to see if they would be a synergy fit with my other gear, I would never use measurements to try to determine what a piece would sound like because you can’t. Nobody can tell me what is the difference in sound quality if 1 product has .005 distortion compared to 1 that has .0005? Tube gear measures much worse the SS gear but prefer the sound of tubes. The only measurement I need to determine if I like the sound is what my ear tells me |
Ignorant dont know what means "psycho-acoustic" concepts... Then they pit themselves one against the others with half truths worst than lies... Simple... The more aggressive they are, and there is aggressive minds in the two side, the more ignorant they are... Search for the word "psycho-acoustic"...And the feud will be over for those with a brain...
By the most basic psycho-acoustic principle there is an ORDER : the listening subject matter more and come first over the measurements of any kind, be it acoustic or electronical or mechanical...Especially in small room acoustic which is an art based on science... Once this is said thinking that because we like listening to a piece of gear it is enough to go from it to higher quality sound experience is illusory and without foundation at the end... We must also know and understand why we like it...It is a process called learning how to listen...Buying gear dont replace acoustic experiments...Buying pacoustic panels is not enough at all... Sorry to spell this unconvenient truth...
«There is no subject nor any object before the act of thinking» Anonymus philosopher |
I would say that ASR has not changed my mind about much, certainly not on the SQ of boxes I know well, but it has reinforced my impression that applying a dusting of science and absolute assertions to incomplete (or worse) experiments will persuade a lot of people. I did have a greater respect for those who bother to measure everything, based largely on my own laziness, until ASR got me to look at how far from complete (or even fair) much of what passes for wisdom on that side of the fence seems to me to be. I was less thus dismissive until ASR encouraged me to read carefully: I came to listen & learn - and stayed to scoff. |
I have a relative who grows singing birds, always trying to find the 'best' singing one, some he raises from eggs up, some he catches in the wild and than breed them with domestic ones, all in almost desperate trail to find that ever illusive 'perfect' song. He is no alone in that endeavour and has a bunch of friends who also meets up, listen to each others birds and of course bitter argue about which bird sings the best. As far as I know, nobody knows exactly how should the 'best' bird song should sound and yet, they are very passionate about it. It is apsurd in a way and if I did not know of audiophile world I would look them as a group of weirdos. Now, why I am writing all this? If you stop and think for a moment, there should be no reason why anybodys opinion about bird song or something trivial as hi fi (or anything else) should spoil your feeling or joy about it. Writing bitter posts or aguing, or even giving second thought about it is a total waste of time, isnt it? |
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@audphile1 : go to ASR and read the review of the Chord M-Scaler. Amir listened to it on his system (Revel speakers/Levinson amp) and stated his impressions. Regarding my income level I own enough HiFi gear - both tube and transistor - to equip a retail store! |
Amir caters to certain audience. Those who like someone else to do the thinking for them. They love to hear that his reference professional grade $99 Chinese DAC measures better than a $5500 DAC as voltage coming out of his $99 preamp outputs. Listening test are almost never mentioned. These people go on about their day feeling great that some sucker spent $5500 on a DAC when they bought a better performing product and saved $5400 in the process. |
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Yes I found his limitations reflect a technician’s perspective and understanding of the measurements he takes and the claims he makes. I find his resistance to change does not reflect a scientific approach. His lack of curiosity is disappointing in a role purportedly for social benefit. I shrug my shoulders and have moved on. I have learned a lot about electronics electrical theory and quantum mechanics as well as materials science through research and reading beyond ASR. I learned none of this within ASR. Basically I’ve stopped bothering with him or ASR as a source of information. YMMV. |
Biases are not only mere impediments, except when we must control them for the sake of objective measurements and other science or engineering goals... Biases are at the same time the source of our motivation and the expression of our motivation... Many people dont seems to understand that, biases are COMPLEX phenomenon...As Placebos are...And Placebos are not only mere deception or illusions, but phenomenon that must be controlled for example in drugs trials... But doctors and mothers USE them positively... If not they are incompetent doctors and not much loving mothers...In the same way we can use our hearing biases positively in acoustic if we are conscious of them to begin with and play with them in listenings experiments ... Electronical measurements are no more the optimal road to explain and describe audio qualities than subjective listenings... It is incredible that people cannot understand that we must LEARN HOW TO LISTEN... And the only way is through acoustic experiments not by changing gear... If it was the case people owning 50 heaphones and 50 amplifiers and 50 dac will be listening experts , but they are not... They simply know more about branded name products as salesman ... it seems people enjoy too much disagreeing to understand why subjectivist and objectivist miss the main point about audio experience and this for exactly the same reason...Their focus is on the gear ... I wrote that knowing that tomorrow people will make the same preposterous arguments pitting subjectivist against objectivist, like the egg big end groupie against the small end groupie In Gulliver travels...
«The sound source qualities did not exist before the act of conscious hearing because the qualities related to the sound source, for example the ripeness of a fruit observed by tapping on it cannot exist and be perceived if we do not LEARN how to listen to the fruits on a table market...We must learn HOW TO LISTEN »-- Anonymus Acoustician
«All men must learn the hard way how to listen to their non binary partner or to their wife »-- Groucho Marx 🤓 |
I think he made me realize how unimportant measurements are. For one thing, I own the Magnepan LRSs. Somehow they sound great while measuring poorly. For another, those cheap DACs that measure great, are not, I found out. Same thing with phono stages. I love science but literally all that matters is how it sounds. And as others said above, it shows how tribal and biased humans can be, among other things. It might be better as a study in human psychology. |
Amir has not changed my mind about anything for several reasons. 1. Have always used measurements as a starting point only. Amir provides numerous measurements, a good thing, but not the full and complete picture. 2. Amir claims he relies on settled science and follows a scientific process. He is making measurements by following a process. However, a true scientific process involves identifying, managing, and documenting many more factors and conditions than Amir ever considers. We are talking about an Audio Hobby, so going full blown science is not required. Which would be just fine if Amir did not promote himself so vigorously as an authority with all the "correct" answers. 3. Amir promotes "cheap" but well measuring equipment as performing just as well as costlier well measuring equipment. Again, OK on its face if presented as a value proposition. Not OK when buyers that prefer to spend more for performance, quality, and reliability are labeled as audiofools, or worse. Not a winning strategy to change opinions. |
Thank you for your reply to my inquiry. You find value via the ASR site and I respect that. It doesn't work for me but obviously we're all different. I'm glad that you can find worthwhile utilization with their format. Best wishes to you. Charles |
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"I think he’s doing a disservice to the finer art of audio by teaching that measurements are gospel. Basic measurements are a convenience and are a good starting point, but are not the entire answer." The above represents my point of view.
He has an agenda, and that is to promote his site. I also think he is somewhat unethical. He promotes products that are poorly built just because they measure well.. Look at the number of people on his site who complain of Topping products failing or not working as they should, yet Amir claims it is not his responsibility to look at the quality, just the measurement. I regard this as unethical; if you praise or recommend a piece of equipment as a reviewer you should look at all aspects, not just measurements that may or may not have value. His site is funny though, especially when some of the minions get wound up. |
@chayro "I think that Amir, in a round about way, reminds us of how powerful our biases are." This is true. The notion that subjective listening is not without serious problems is something that ASR may take too self-righteously, but it is part of science to realize that careful analysis requires self-scrutiny and scrutiny of others "tastes." Not baseless suspicion but a critical attitude. @jasonbourne71 We agree that there is something of value in the enormous amount of work that Amir has put into his site. @charles1dad I have found many, many things of value there. Descriptions of products, tests, measurements, photos, and other information.Some have decided that because they don’t agree with his product conclusions or his disposition toward measurement and against listening tests (as too subjective) there is nothing at all there. This is the kind of partisanship that drives people apart and -- perhaps more important -- keeps us from learning from the valuable parts of what others turn up. FYI, I posted my review of the Ascend speakers at ASR and some dismissed it because there were no measurements. Very discriminatory against my approach. But others on the site jumped in to defend me, even though it was not measurement based. So, there are a variety of people at ASR, I found. |
I think that Amir, in a round about way, reminds us of how powerful our biases are. My friend’s 28 year old daughter loves sneakers. She will see someone wearing a certain pair and salivate over them because she knows the back story. I don’t know the back story, so i just I just see an another pair of sneakers. It just reminds me of how much our brain affects what we believe is important. I don’t know if it’s possible to separate them. |
It’s just data, so my answer is no. No different than other reviewers, Amir has his own bias. Yet, some here seem to freak out at the mention of his name. Earlier this year, Amir gave a positive review to the Hypex NCx500 Class D Amplifier. This is likely to cause at least a few cases of internal consternation in people who have been waiting for a good-sounding, lower priced, class D amplifier, yet can’t bring themselves to purchase anything recommended by Amir. |
Who is "we"? How has ASR changed audio? Do you think he was the first to take measurements?
If you’re not listening to every piece you measure, you have no way of correlating measurements with sonic results. That he can’t be bothered to listen to everything he measures speaks volumes about him, and his opinion of himself. |
Name dropping leaders in their audio fields with Amir does a disservice to them. They used measurements to create and ensure great audio products whereas Amir uses measurements to tear them down. Not even close to the same thing. It's like citing the science and work behind the internet and saying Elmo is a genius. All the best, |
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ASR hasn't just changed my mind on things such as the importance of measurements, the respect for the science of audio (Toole, Olive, Choueri, Barton, Shaw etc), the acknowledgment of the work done by professional broadcasting manufacturers (Genelec, KEF, Neumann etc) it's also changed the way more and more reviewers are now recognising the increasing need to back up their subjective opinions with hard science.
Most I think he should get some thanks for fighting the industry.
Absolutely he should. Unlike almost virtually every other reviewer he relies almost solely upon the goodwill and kind donations of his readers. The ASR forum has certainly changed the way we look at audio and there's no going back now. Of course some manufacturers and dealers will always be less than pleased with his conclusions, and we should expect that as they are trying to push product. Selling is their business - numbers, units, turnover, dollars, pounds etc. However, for us the potential consumer, it's all good news. Highly detailed and backed up with a generous presentation courtesy of the Klippel NFS technology. Technology that the likes of Ascend Acoustics are now employing in the development of future loudspeakers
Lastly, lest we forget, Amir nearly always includes his own listening impressions at the end of each review.
What's not to like? |
Having recently spent a considerable sum ($35k) to put a nice system together, I had the itch to spend a few thousand on a power conditioner, until I watched a few of Amir's videos on YouTube. Right or wrong, I never pulled the trigger and have stayed with my $99 Audioquest power strip. My power amp and sub are connected straight into the wall. The noise floor has been quiet from day 1, so I convinced myself that I didn't have a problem to solve. Who knows what the future holds? |
To answer the OP question: a resounding NO. But that’s just me.
What you guys don’t realize (or perhaps you do 😉), this thread does one thing: more (free) advertising for Amir. And that’s exactly what prominent YouTubers want, free publicity. As they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity
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@ghdprentice +1! When I first started reading this thread, I was thinking about writing virtually the same post. I think ASR is doing a significant disservice to our hobby by convincing many new to the hobby that measurements are all that matters. i think measurements are a helpful tool for development and an invaluable tool for manufacturing (ensuring unit to unit consistency), but the simplistic measurements done by Amir are all but worthless for determining what products will work well in my own system. To be honest, I have not visited the site in the last year or so since I did not want to do anything that might improve their visibility to new prospective audiophiles. |
I think this verification of industry standards is the positive side of Amir...You are right...But i dont think that better measurements alone is enough to reach very good audiophile optimal listening experience ... But people are short sightened by their ideology be it technology or any other one, and objectivist as subjectivist are deluding themselves when they isolate from one another ...People love to hate someone or something... Thats explain much of everything on the actual earth situation if we add the power greed for control by some... ...
In audio if we come back to the subject matter, they all forget acoustic as the main powerful factor...Astounding when we know that audiophile experience is only EXPLAINED at the end by psycho-acoustic...Even change in electronic design are ultimately guided by acoustic results...
«Purchasing is never rational most of the times ; and most of the times irrational especially when we buy a bride » -- Groucho Marx puchasing his amplifier 🤓 |
To answer specifically the OP question... Only Dr. Gorike an acoustician change my mind about headphones... Measurements by Amir or positive reviews could not...They can be useful and indicative in some case but NEVER decisive especially separately ... Why ? Because as for my speakers and amplifier and dac only the relation between them matter FOR the end goal of their integration to my room by acoustic... In the same way the headphone synergetical association with dac and amplifier matter too but the acoustic properties of the headphone matter even more... Anyway the only way to BYPASS room acoustic or headphones with no acoustic content in the shell is to try Dr. Choueri BACCH filters for "virtual toom acoustic" the most revol;utionay dac ever... Read about it, it is amazing that this revolution is not well known ... ...Then once acoustic is done right we dont need measurements or subjective reviews anymore and we dont need upgrades...
«In audio cooking, acoustic is the steak and the experience , the gear is the cooking itself with the spicing»--Groucho Marx learning his craft 🤓
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Charyo asked for opinion and I provided mine. I did not ask for any opinion on my response. Please decide what you all want from the thread, since it was clearly mentioned not to pile on, and I did not do that to OP. |
Measurements of gear versus listening the gear... We need the two.... The problem is Amir school and the subjectivist audiophile insist the two of them on the gear "magical qualities"; by virtue of their optimal standards measurement with Amir who swear only by that, and by virtue of the listening personal subjective experience with the Subjectivist who swear only by that ... What is the common factor between the two factions at war to define "good sound quality" : it is the the gear design and branded name , measured and verified and officially stamped by pope Amir or promoted, as listened to, by subjective audiophile reviewers...
Myself i know that what define "good sound quality experience" for sure ask for rightfully designed gear to begin with for sure but it is ESSENTIALLY acoustic and psycho acoustic speakers/room specific relation ... Nothing else.... Sorry for the measuring fads or for the costlier brand products obsession of some audiophiles... They are not even wrong, they are deluded by an half truth, out of acoustic experience and experiments...
«It is not the tissu nor the way it is woven so much as the way you dress a specific body»-- Groucho Marx learning craft 🤓 |
