At the top of the line is it really all that different?

OP    At the top of the line is it really all that different?

No. Their sounds are over-rated. Listen to multi $million and low budget systems.  Alex/WTA

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YgU397PPzpA

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U-7MwmA2a1c

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GNnE6xeCwAg

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BQ7vhV7BuhY

https://youtu.be/i5Rrg0CU-XM?si=y42Hmi7LmEgrvpF4&t=224

And here I am going to shamelessly quote myself from another thread

At the end of the day, it depends on how much obsessiveness and pathological compulsion dedication and commitment one is willing to bring to the table.

A purpose-built listening room becomes a necessity if one is to even hear the difference better gear makes. That room alone can cost $250K or more, though it doesn't have to.

I don't have a dedicated listening room and I don't want one. I sometimes listen to music 12 hours a day, so I need to do something else while listening, namely, in my case, work. That supposes, by definition, a very imperfect room, which in turn limits how much better gear I can get while still reasonably hoping to hear significant improvement.

But I wouldn't last an hour in a dedicated listening room before I got cabin fever, so I'm more than willing to live with what I have as it lets me listen to music for another 11 hours, and ultimately listening to music is what I'm here for.

A really great question, and a lot of thoughtful responses.  One thing I’d add is it also depends on how you listen.  I’m often astonished at how much I can enjoy a wide variety of completely different systems.  

I have a friend who primarily listens alone, and prioritizes detail, frequency extremes, and soundstage (and has a lot of money).  So he’s a digital guy with Wilson Sasha Vs, Wilson Loke subs and Simaudio top-of-the-line separates.  

I do my more serious listening in a more social environment, with a friend or two sipping brown liquor, and no one in the exact sweet spot. And I’m a midrange/tonality guy - and I suspect I’m a little bit sensitive to phase coherence.  So I do vinyl, with relatively low powered tube amps and simple, efficient speakers.

I love my friend’s system and can hear and appreciate its differences from mine.  But when I listen the way I listen, I actually just prefer my system, which at current MSRP would probably cost half, or less, the cost of his.  I’m not trying to identify the tinkling of the crystal on the tables in the club; I’m just focused on emotional engagement with the music.  Don’t get me wrong, the presence of the tinkling crystal can help to establish the vibe of the club, which in turn can connect me to the music, but for me its emphasis is much less important.

At times it is alot better...but lots,of times is just the wpc.

@yesiam_a_pirate You pose an excellent question!  I think the difference between a $20k speaker vs. a $80k speakers would not provide a $60k worth of an upgrade.  If your room is treated properly and you have good synergy with your selected hifi gear, it may be hard to create a “night and day” improvement with the $50k gear you used as an example.  I was told by a dealer of D’Agostino that the Progression integrated amp was the best value of the D’Agostino line.  Yes, it costs about $21k without the DAC, streamer and phono stage, but most hifi folks prefer an external DAC and streamer anyway, so you can save there.  For $21k, you’re getting the core sound signature of the DAG line without spending $50k+ on their separates and their DAG Momentum MxV integrated for $65k.  I’m confident you will hear an improved sound that you will not forget and desire to have that sound in your setup.  But, is that $50k+ improvement a “night and day” difference to justify the cost?  It’s all subjective and what you demand in your system and I respect anyone who wants to pay for the sound they want.  I don’t have super high priced gear, but it costs more than the average are willing to spend and I really wish I had some of my previously owned gear that was much more inexpensive to compare in my nicely treated room.

Cheers!

You think audio gear that costs $50k/unit is not insane? If you can afford it, fine, go ahead, but paying that much for a system's components is lunacy in my opinion. As my old man would have put it, "that guy has more dollars than sense." 

The real talent is to put together a dynamite system for under $5k or at most, $10k. I've been in the audio game for nearly 60 years. My system, which audiophile friends believe sounds fine, is the culmination of my searches over those years and at list prices (some of the gear I bought as close outs or used) comes to right around $10k. 

I'm sure there are different reasons for different folks. For some, going high end is a matter of self-expression and is not really about the audio quality. For others, they have scrimped and saved to achieve their audio dreams and every note is a blessing.

seems the high end is mostly about being able to fully hear the charms of equally high end recordings of the utmost purity and quality, whose charms would not be noticed on mid-fi equipment.  I experienced that in 1982 at a definitive hifi store in North Seattle, a pair of Maggie tympani III speakers driving by class A all the way, playing a direct to disc recording of a cathedral pipe organ. unparalleled extraction of recording hall ambience, and the surface noise of the record was like a cloud of particulate matter that was about 3-6 feet in front of the speakers, that was the only flaw in the sound which was like I stuck my head through a wall into the original recording venue. utter purity of sound. no distortion whatsoever. 

@deep_333

Or better yet, expand into object based multichannel audio/atmos, etc.

Yes, especially when you consider multi-channel SACDs have been around for 25 years!  The Atmos recordings from www.2L,no are stunningly good.  As is DSOTM in Atmos

Some very thoughtful answers here, but imho I think you likely already know the answer to your question.  You’ve listened to some outstanding and expensive gear and in your room and to your ears you hear very little difference.  I say trust your ears.  I realize there are levels above even the $50k component cost and some like chasing that last small percentage difference, but it seems like even though you can identify the modest change it may not be worth it to you.  I entertain upgrading sometimes and go listen to components at the next level from where I am and usually end up at they sound wonderful but not enough to justify the 3-4x price over what I already have.  I always come back to that I really love my modest system and the way it sounds.  I know I’m leaving some things on the table but I guess I’ve just decided to enjoy it and the music for now.

Good question. In my experience as you go up the line and up in price the sound quality often improves but there’s a point of diminishing returns. Just about everyone has a budget. I suggest trying the best equipment you can afford. work with a dealer or manufacturer that will let you buy, try in your listening room and return if necessary. The challenges once you have a system that sounds good and fits your budget is FOMO and new equipment constantly coming out. I find tweaking my system if a fun part of the hobby. Having different systems as you do allows you to do that more easily. Most importantly as Hans says, enjoy the music.

I'd like to add another dimension to the satisfaction matrix of audiophila (?): circumstances of purchase.  Seven years ago I was a regular visitor to the Seattle CL for audio although I lived on the east side of the state.  For weeks myself and the rest blew right past a Time Frame post.  Slightly blurry, 300 dollars.  Just another pair of old TF400 or such.  Finally one day I took a closer look.  TF2000?

A quick google search had my trembling fingers trying to dial.  A brief conversation and a PP deposit and the pair were mine.

Fast forward to now.  I have loved the sonic magic of these hammers the WHOLE time.  Are there better speakers on paper?  Sure.  I find the imaging and tall soundstage to be all I need.  Effortlessly dives into the deep end.  And I still smile when I think of how I got them.

I power them with a Proceed HPA 2 via a Lexicon MC-8 Controller in analog 2 channel bypass mode.  Nothing but praise for both online and the three play so well together!  Both components bought for much less than original price.  Older gear hold its own against the new at a significant discount.  The SF Bay Area CL is loaded with bargains of gear flippers like the folks in here, thank you!

I recently bought a pair of Von Schweikert VR4 Gen2 for 1000.  Backups for when something goes south in sn 446 or 447.  No one can say it is not a spectacularly great speaker.  Yet my 2000s remain.  Not one to waste such great speakers I took them to my local cannabis dispensary.  I brought a little Audionics CC-2 amp I picked up for 60.  Ground breaking design in it's time, made in Beaverton OR.  A cheap but good Rockville PPA53 BT capable pre and my owner friends, employees and customers get a taste of the high end.  A LOT of compliments by some knowledgeable customers.

In the end does your music make you smile?  Time to quit climbing and enjoy the view... 

Many if not most reviewers give glowing reports because they get the gear for free and either then buy it at a much reduced cost or simply like having all the latest stuff to play around with for a while. If a reviewer gave consistent negative reviews, manufacturers would stop providing them stuff to review, for obvious reasons. To answer your question, there isn't very much difference that can be objectively identified in any of it regardless of the cost and zero difference with things like interconnects or speaker wire.

Stereophile class ratings hold little to no value. They overate(grade) budget gear to drive sales.

Personnaly, I decided to buy good quality products that are not esoteric or over the top expensive to re-build my system for retirement . Part of the hobby for me is to upgrade different parts of the system over time to really enjoy the diffirence at each step. I try to find good conbinations based on the sound I like. Organic and a tad warm, not too analytical.

For example I just got a cardas beyond Power cord that I found on sale at a retailler. Last fall I upgraded the tonearm on my Linn with a used Arko at 50% off.

Since I pick quality products and brand names, I get good selling value if I want to upgrade.

Good luck in your journey.

I own a few items with unimpeachable sonic credibility. An original version Schiit Freya who's slightly more recent version got a Class A rating in Stereophile and costs about a grand (NOS GE tubes are my favorites in that thing). I bought it because it sounds great and is very flexible like a sonic yoga mat. Also, a well regarded Dennis Had Firebottle SEP (late 2016 version) that is somewhat obscure but, again, sounds astonishingly good. Bought barely used in early '17 for maybe 1100 bucks, and is a tube rolling delight. A Pass XA-25 that is also rated Class A and was around 5 grand. World class. Expensive stuff? HA...go ahead and plunder your bank account for what might make you feel better even if it likely doesn't sound better...I can afford pricey stuff but but, meh, the items described above give me many hours of satisfaction un-dimmed by ego driven gear insecurities. 

even if I had the resources, spending this much money would be out of the question (also, with so many better objectives to support). There is no limit to improving the quality of materials in the components but you can't improve your ear.
Still, if one can hear the difference at that level, and want to burn 10s of $1000s, enjoy!

I have been in this hobby for over thirty years and I am happy to report that the best, most involving, musical systems have NOT been the highest priced. Too many audiophiles get caught up in the "if it costs more it has to be better" mentality. It’s all about how your components match with each other (and trusting your ears ). From my experience, there is no reason to spend more than 15-25k on an entire system. The most important things I do are make sure a new component, cable, etc., introduced in my system is truly better sounding than what I am replacing. The second thing I have found is that keeping your contacts clean is a must. Sound in a system degrades over time if you don’t clean them. I have found that not all cleaners are equal either. I have found that Kontak does the best job (no, I don’t work for them or get anything for promoting it). I have found that my system sound starts going south after about two to three months, and that’s when I clean. Lastly, make sure your acoustics are taken care of. You don’t want an echo chamber but you also don’t want to overdo it to the point that your system has no life. If you haven’t gone to one of the audio shows, do yourself a favor. It’s one of the best ways to confirm what I am talking about. I never walk away from an audio show wishing I could own any of the many cost-no-object components/systems. But I ALWAYS walk away wanting to buy a reasonably priced component that produced some of the best sound at the show (regardless of price).

There are several different "top of the line" choices.  For example 89dB/watt speaker vs 99dB/watt speakers.  totally different animals with totally different amp pairings.  

another big design difference is the simple amplifier vs the complicated amplifier signal path.  

Lots of other examples.  So you have to decide which swimming pool you want to swim in before you compare "top of the line".

Jerry

Thankfully, regarding your question of which I was wondering the same thing; the answer is, wait for it... YES!

I've been playing around with my 2nd system lately. This gets a little interesting.

After the last time I listened to the rig I took out the Scott A 436 integrated to have work done on it. The next time I listened to the rig I came up with a pair of Bose Video Roommate powered speakers and tried to run the turntable through the McIntosh MR-55a tuner which has a phono stage! 

It's a mono tuner so only one RCA input for the phono. One channel was very quiet and didn't sound great. The next day I picked up a gold plated Y adapter from Auto Zone of all places! I rushed home to hear the results! I was now getting stereo into mono but it still sounded like listening to a hand held transistor radio, maybe not even that good. There was absolutely no bass. My tech confirmed my suspicion that the phono input was probably set up for 78 rpm records and stylus compliance.

A week later I got a sweet deal on a Bellari VP129 Tube Phono Preamplifier. I put it into the rig and boom! Nice stereo sound from the Bose speakers. Then I changed the 12ax7 tube, which looked stock to me, to a new Electro-Harmonix. Sonics definitely improved with the new tube.

The Bose sit top of the Infinity RS4b speakers. They're ported and have a good amount of weight to them having the size and shape of small bookshelf speakers. There is good imaging and decent sound.

The last album I listened to was PF Meddle. The next day I listened to Meddle on the main rig. It was so obvious that the main rig is worlds better sounding. The joy and relief of knowing that all the money and time is worth every note was very, very satisfying!

 

As you go up higher and higher in the price versus performance matrix, it’s a clear totally bespoke decision tree choice embodied best IMO by a quote :

” Price is what you pay. Value is what you get,”

- Warren Buffett

@ghdprentice

Nailed it ! Point, set, and match in tennis jargon.

Some drive Fords, some drive Chevys, some drive Range Rovers, Porsches, and Jags.

i mostly wear an Apple Watch on a daily basis, but still enjoy a smile of appreciation provided with my EBEL, ZENITH, or PANERAI

I have had the privilege of listening to several very high end systems where the owners were happy to do A/B comparisons of various cables, amps, and DACs and often the differences between equally high end components are startling.  In my more modest, but still very good system, I hear those differences but they are often less dramatic.  So the resolution and quality of the rest of the system does matter.  Based on my personal experience, I have come to believe that the "audiophiles" that deny cables can make a difference or claim that all normally function amps sound the same are simply factually wrong.  But hey, maybe all of us that hear clear differences are simply suffering psycho-acoustic delusions. 

@yesiam_a_pirate .....*G*

After all the above....feel free to indulge oneself into that which interests you.

The only one you need to please is you. regardless of room and the selections that make it work for you.  That search is frustrating, given the variables....

One's local Nirvana will likely conflict with others; pay no mind.

It is a very useful skill....learning how to fix recordings...

You're outta luck if you are spinning vinyl. But, it's doable on the digital end if you learn some software and a few tricks.

If some mastering technician got a lil too high before he worked on it, it shouldn't be the reason an artist got doomed forever.

However, after a certain level major limiting factors are recordings and room acoustics. Hard to change the former, right ?

First of all, system are different. What makes one system sound better may not produce the same results in another system.  We have a listening room and I cannot tell you how many times a person has brought something over to put in the system with not the same results.  Many times that is because the components we manufacturer have such great power supplies that power cables, etc., don't have the same impact in our system.  That is why you need to hear something in your own system to see if that change is worth it to your ears only.

Happy Listening.

We've been here before so many times. How well you can hear means a lot, just as how important this audiophilia nervosa is to you. I personally would not spend on audio too much even if I easily could, but it would still be tens of thousands dollars. Many components in the chain, so the cost is high for excellent sounding system.

However, after a certain level major limiting factors are recordings and room acoustics. Hard to change the former, right ?

In my experience yes.  But I don't always need to be listening to a high end system to enjoy music.

Let me explain - I have experienced significant upgrades in my system over the years.  I notice them and enjoy them.  And I've listened to music at audio shows. in my local audio dealer and at folks houses.  I've had times where I listening to music was awesome and it was powered by a modest system.  I've had times where listening was 'ok, time to go' and the system was very high-end and put together.

I don't expect to upgrade again and I do enjoy listening to different music and different music.   

Enjoy  your journey!

@kerrybh +1

I’ve been contemplating how to give a thoughtful answer to the thoughtful question posed by the OP. I don’t think I’ll do better than the above but will add my $.02.

I’ve enjoyed every stage of my systems development over the years. As I made one improvement, I found myself desiring to make other improvements - because it was both fun to see (hear) “what if” and musically rewarding. It was also sending me down the proverbial rabbit hole. Upgrade here led to upgrade there. 

I have several times concluded I was done, just wanting to sit back and enjoy the music, only to eventually explore another what if. 

Where am I at now? Well, I stumbled into the category you are inquiring about with my DAC/preamp and cables. The speakers and amp are certainly nice, but fall well short of TOTL. Each piece was chosen based on a combination of performance, what my room would accommodate, aesthetics (I don’t want to look at gear), budget, and what was available from dealers I know, like and wanted to support.

Based on that criteria, in my room (a notable limitation), I find my speakers give me 95% of what I’ve heard from the best (other than MBL 101 MK IIs - but those didn’t meet the aesthetic requirement). They’re very satisfying. Will I ever upgrade? I can’t say.

On the DAC/preamp and cables? They’ve given me more of everything, allowing the speakers and amp to give their best. And yes, to me it was worth it though I can easily imagine others thinking me quite the fool. But they really were notably better than the gear they replaced (which was already good) and what I heard elsewhere. Better than other TOTL gear? Doubtful, but I had sound reasons for the choices I made.

Is it all worth it? I would never say one way or the other for anyone else other than to say never risk your financial independence over audio gear. Assuming that’s not a concern, I would suggest you step gently and try a piece here and there to see if it brings you the satisfaction you desire. It can be a fun journey, though be forewarned: I’m pretty sure no one actually gets to the final destination. 

What’s next for me? Not sure. I still wonder about my amp but substantively improving it would require a big spend - and I’m not sure I’d get that much more anyway. And, I am considering the Taiko extreme and Olympus servers - though that feels like it may add complexity I don’t need. And they are changing things quickly in that space. 

So today, I’ll enjoy the music. Hopefully I’ll do the same tomorrow.  And then I’ll go AXPONA and I may stumble again.

Best,

There’s some truth in it.  I think there is a level of hifi gear that annoys you with some kind of sound or coloration, or for example bad bass or brash highs.  “Do no harm” applies first.  After that, to include finding the kind of sound you like and having a good room set up, the degrees of separation can be marginal.  
 

Unfortunately you can find yourself in the first phase (something’s not right) even after spending a lot of money.  Could be synergy between components, room, etc.  Having a good dealer helps.

You pose an excellent question, for which there is no right answer, everyone is different. I think as you go up the expense ladder, particularly with electronics, the qualitative differences are real, but narrow significantly. You may spend a good amount of money to get only a 5% gain but for some people that will be money well spent, others not so much. For some, the chase  is the game and is unending. 

This is also relative, not absolute. Someone who owns $50,000 speakers might think they are in  such rarified air that all that can be achieved has been achieved. The fellow who owns $100,000 speakers would think a little differently. 
 

in the final analysis, it’s not a competition, something we sometimes seem to forget.  All of us have a different budget and a different amount of money that we are able and willing to spend on this hobby. The goal should be to deploy those resources in a way that brings you the most enjoyment. Some will reach a place where they are perfectly satisfied and get off the train. For others, the journey doesn’t end and they always look for the next upgrade. Neither is wrong

I'm quite happy with where my system is at, but like most of you, it's not a stable condition. I still look at gear every day, wondering if the $40k (used) speakers will be appreciably better than the $15k (used) that I spent. Same goes for the electronics. I'm tempted to go back 5-10 years to get premium used gear. 

Decreasing marginal returns are as true in audio as anywhere else - possibly truer, considering how much one can spend with audio gear.

Value... different, and totally personal assessment. To me, $50k in audio is "unthinkable", but I have happily spent that amount or more on other stuff I collect. Part of the reason why it's 'unthinkable' is because of those marginal returns. I listened - briefly, and probably not attentively enough - to a DAC in a shop (Chord Hugo TT2) against its 4x-as-expensive brother (Chord Dave + MScaler). Yes, there were differences, but not worth spending $12k for me. Ended up taking the Hugo TT2 home for a couple of days, and returning as it wasn't "so much better" than my 30 year old LFD.

It can be very rewarding to play at the margins using your idea.  I just did it with great results.  For example, the speakers I selected are NOS B&W 802 D Diamonds.  So they are both one step down from the top 801, but they are also 2nd generation vs. the current 4th generation.   Practical result:  $23K saved.  Soundwise, they are approximately 4 db down in the upper range, bass is little changed.  I, like many others actually prefer the Diamonds for home use.  Compared to the 801s, they are identical from 375 Hz up, but they are leaner sounding.  Most, including me, would prefer 801s given the choice.  Another example:  Amplifier.  I chose the recently discontinued Marantz PM10, an amplifier that the dealer said outperformed any other that he sold on B&W 802s.  He also sold Mark Levinson, McIntosh and so on.  Practical result:  At least $4k saved, the price of the PM10 before discontinuation.  It sounds terrific to me and my standard of reference is the C-J 27A class A amp I use in my main system.  There is no point in further examples.  If you are smart about it, there is no question that it is possible to put together a wonderful system at significant savings using your idea.  Most importantly, it is a lot of fun.

At the higher end, parameters like resolution, clarity, soundfield nuances, bass impact, extension, etc can start to equalize, which are the same parameters that are immediately noticeable to a listener. Such equalization happens way more quickly with amplifiers, dacs, cables, etc. Subtle nuances don’t matter to most listeners, especially older ones with some hearing degradation.

At that point, you are better off improving the room and expanding your music collection. Or add a subwoofer, which can cause a drastic change...Or better yet, expand into object based multichannel audio/atmos, etc.

I believe it was Dali (could be wrong) that did a study where no one could distinguish speakers too much in a well treated room. If you insist on hearing differences that are wallet justifiable, get drastically different types of speaker designs. For example, i was comparing a TAD (concentric driver) and a Pioneer XY-3B (higher end PA horn that can bring down the house!) back to back in the same room for a bit. I could enjoy them for what they were... different presentations...could say the same with a recent Tekton

If i had been comparing the TAD with some higher end concentric driver  like a KEF blade, it could have been a "why bother" moment, if i didn’t have a room that is capable of putting everything under the magnifying glass.....There are so many similar 3 ways or 4 ways which may lead you to a "why bother" moment....magico,...schweikert...Rockport...etc, Meh....

There are times I find that being as poor as I am, that I am still terrified that my investment is not going to do any good. Then to find that it completely blew away my expectations. Hopefully the day that this doesn’t make a difference is a long way away for me. 

It depends on you. Are you thrilled by the incremental difference? I am. It is what has been so rewarding about this pursuit. That additional realism and the fit with my aesthetic... which is now how well duplicates real natural music. Both aspects make me extremely happy. So, that appreciation brought me to identify Wilson, Magico, B&W, and Sonus Faber... but to purchase and enjoy Sonus Faber... because of its excellence and its fit with my aesthetic.

If I was a "good enough" kind of person... well it would be a complete waste of money. It is all about what you get out of it and that is a personality trait. This is typical of people across the spectrum. I hike, climb, and bike ride. I have a closet of Arctrex jackets that are both in themselves the pinnacle of design excellence and with the selection I have I can go out into sever conditions and be perfectly comfortable, with the perfect garment. It increases the enjoyment to me of the experience. Ditto... cameras, computers... etc.

Tough topic to give a good response to. There are so many variables involved, and so much subjectivism that how good something sounds, and how well it works together are major elements. The influence of the room and setup are huge factors. Add the fact that we hear differently, and tastes vary and what’s considered good is rarely universal. An audio system is also a chain, where the weakest link is often what we hear from a system, which can hide the potential of some of the other components. Which leads us to the art of synergy and getting top shelf gear to play well together. The music selection and listening habits all play a factor. There’s just so many unknowns, and most of us only have meaningful exposure to a small fraction of what’s out there. Hearing gear at a CES almost doesn’t count, because the listening time is limited, and the environment is often not conducive to good sound and proper evaluation.

Add to the equation that price and performance don’t necessarily have a direct correlation, and there are definitely diminishing returns per dollar spent at some level. Some companies are more adept at marketing to a niche than they are at actually building better gear, and advancing the technology of audio. When I used to go to CES, immediately at the end of the each day of the shows, the business minded people would go out and entertain dealers, reviewers, and distributors after hours. But there was always a small segment of die hard audio guys who were in it for the pure love of audio, and they stay behind after hours at the show hotel, and would literally play with whatever gear they could get the hands on,often for hours until security kicked them out, then they’d get a late dinner wherever they could find a place that was open. To me, that was an indicator of the level of commitment to better audio....not necessarily with 100% accuracy, but I found it an interesting observation.  It'd be fair to say that some of them were poor businessmen, but brilliant audio guys.

As for reviews - Payola is alive and well in audio (as it is with many things). It’s not uncommon for reviewers to get some benefit for recommending certain products, whether through direct payment, acquisition of gear or other perks, side hustles, increased readership, etc. I learned years ago to take reviews lightly, and/or with some skepticism. At best it’s an opinion. At worst it’s a form of advertising and/or business decision.

I found it helpful to attend a few different audio shows to see and hear the low/medium/high level gear. What can be most promising are the rooms with less expensive gear that sounds great. Then get to know the Co owners, designers, and talk with them about their designs and product parts qualities next. It’s more fun to be a value-shopper and can be rewarding.

It’s too easy to just go out and blow a ton of money on flashy gear and hope that you are settled with it later. Takes work to figure out what is right for you and going somewhere to listen to gear set up by others and talking with them about it can be quite rewarding figuring this out for yourself even more. It’s a journey for all of us.

This can also help to quickly figure out what you don’t like, that’s for sure, low or high cost. I’ve heard some high $ gear that just sounded quite agitating, fatiguing, at shows, with horrible matching and paring of gear too, lol. Best of Luck.