Your comment is very cynical. Manufacturer manufacture things to sell… professional reviewers identify a fatiguing piece of equipment and would point it out… resulting in poor sales… however:
Inexpensive audio equipment can be fatiguing… those built to minimize cost of parts.
Some combinations of otherwise not fatiguing components can be fatiguing.
Many people turn on their analytical skills and listen for detail and crispness long before they understand how to hear a noice floor and high frequency hash… which causes fatigue. So they buy highly detailed but fatiguing components.
Folks that like to hear detail… and I think we all start that way, do not recognize when the musicality is striped from a component (rhythm and pace). Without it, you end up listening to the system and not the music. After the, “oh wow, I can hear a violinist move his foot.”… listening is not interesting. Systems that fail to produce music are exceedingly easy to assemble. All components must work together synergistically.
Systems designed to reproduce music tend to be pretty expensive.
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It's a crowded marketplace and grabbing attention is half the game. Whether they are thinking about the step beyond that is an open question. Do most people who buy audiophile equipment --and what gets counted, here? -- get hooked into a buying cycle? I don't know.
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If that's how you really feel then you aren't their target market. Plainly stated, manufacturers want to impress you at demo time so that you will purchase. They then want that experience to continue to enhance so that you will comment positively and tell others, so they will repeat the exercise and buy more gear. Most gear made today is exceptional at the various price points.
So, relax, as long as the hobby continues to evolve (young, intelligent leaders replacing those who "age out") as it has with regard to sound quality and features for the $$ as well as increased reliability, everything will be ok.
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it is simple assembling a great system is an art and today many people base their buying decisions on internet reviews from reviewers without proper experience or gear to test from
nor do nany people have the patience and understanding
cites that are measurement based are leading people astray
learn by listening
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Much of the modern design goes into causing a product to fail at a certain time or after certain num of uses. And it was reported by reviewers that sometimes they come across an item that's voiced to stand out but not to give long-lasting pleasure. It would benefit a manufacturer to get you to upgrade shortly after you just purchased and I'm pretty sure they know this so why not design it to happen? Is this hobby about constant upgrades or system synergy and long-term enjoyment? Seems to me most are on the constant upgrade path and that's profitable. Why would I want to build you a product that lasts a lifetime? I just killed my future sales.
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@johnk there are many high end audio products that last a lifetime with proper maintenance.
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The utility you buy at the point of purchase in better made gear remains. Certain things do wear out over time but reputable companies who build serviceable gear are the ones around for the long haul. At least thats the gear I try to buy. Its the additional features that materialize after you’ve bought that usually triggers a new purchase. For you to believe that excellent manufacturers build gear to minimize useful life prematurely is misguded. With that said, good stuff with a long life costs money.
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{For you to believe that excellent manufacturers build gear to minimize useful life prematurely is misguded.} Planned obsolesce is a thing I didn’t invent this or imagine it, it exists. Audio products are mostly made from parts from many manufacturers. Manufacturers use planned obsolesce for many reasons and not just to milk you for more cash some things you don’t want to last longer than needed. But most all products factor it in. Why are audiophile products somehow not part of this? Do they all agree with suppliers to forgo any planned obsolesce? Review this and tell me that it doesn’t apply to audio.
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a policy of producing consumer goods that rapidly become obsolete and so require replacing, achieved by frequent changes in design, termination of the supply of spare parts, and the use of nondurable materials.
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What is your point? Buy an Audio Note Ongaku today versus a twenty year old Ongaku. There have been running changes but the twenty year old amplifier remains an exceptional performer and is completely serviceable. If you purchase compromised products then its a choice you make.
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You can still get 50 year old krell amps serviced, and I'm sure pass labs services their older equipment. Try having a run of the mill mainstream piece of audio equipment serviced, usually doesn't happen.
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{a policy of producing consumer goods that rapidly become obsolete and so require replacing, achieved by frequent changes in design, termination of the supply of spare parts} this describes a good portion of the audio market sure not all nothing is an absolute, and one can always find an example outside of this but that doesn't eliminate the basic premiss.
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So @johnk to clearly answer your original query...excellent gear is built to sound and perform excellently. Your premise that most things have a planned obsolescence or worse, that it is designed to impress and then sit around not being used is inaccurate.
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So this doesn't happen in audio=obsolescence achieved by frequent changes in design, termination of the supply of spare parts.
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The industry knows that you cant sell the same speaker designs for decades which is why they invent new ones every couple of years. But we all know it is impossible for breakthroughs to happen that quickly. All speakers are made of wood, glue and paper pretty much. The rest is just marketing BS. And yes they can be tuned with excessive bass or highs in order to impress.
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All of the hifi industry i s based around the planned obsolescence model thesedays. Cd players used to be built to last a lifetime and the ones that were built in the 70's are still sought after for that reason.
Now we have these horrific streaming devices which are based on EEPROM technology and the like. As we all know these can go bad in as little as 5 years.
Keep your hifi equipment in the analogue domain if you want it to last a long time.
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All of the hifi industry i s based around the planned obsolescence model thesedays.
"All", Kenjit?
Stop hyperventilating in the forum, please.
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@audiotroy Very well put sir. I am sure your customers appreciate where you are coming from.
it is simple assembling a great system is an art and today many people base their buying decisions on internet reviews from reviewers without proper experience or gear to test from
nor do many people have the patience and understanding
cites that are measurement based are leading people astray
learn by listening
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It depends on individual.
For me it's harder to try new things than stick to old ones.
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No. Every manufacturer makes what they think you'll like based on their observations of you (the public). Every now and then some do it better than others, some even much better, but it's not a conspiracy.
All the best,
Nonoise
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....what exactly is the purpose of this thread ?
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@johnk There could be another reason we tend to be constantly rebuilding and tweaking our systems. Studies have shown that Endorphins are released in our brains when we spend money. Just like Pavlov's dogs, we are conditioned to the hit of pleasure we get from buying things. In fact, studies show that more Endorphins are released during the planning process than the actual purchase. And, purchasing items that have a long delivery date keeps the buzz going. Sure we can convince ourselves that changing our interconnects or buying that new power cables is justified by the improvement in sound, but maybe we all need to look in the mirror and accept the fact, we're junkies!!! We should all be pointed to the nearest 12 step program. 🤣 But seriously, there's something to be said for this.
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If something is fatiguing, it is likely the room.
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Not true look at very high end dacs like the chord Dave
It’s very detailed and cutting edge but very neutral ,which for instance if you have a Vacuum tube amplifier or preamp would be a ideal match , also with the hundreds of brand Audio cables ,even digital they all have a solid signature that you personally can Taylor to your specific Audio system ,it just takes time and monies to
match, sometimes you have to sell something to get better synergy ,but that’s what Audiophiles do. Some Audio dealers allow a trial period . You control your $$ .
you absolutely should research every product and reviews,forum information you are considering to purchase.
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No, not if you bought the right components in the first place. By right, I mean don't buy overly analytical or bright equipment.
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Why those little sneaks….😠
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Planned obsolescence does exist in mass produced gear like Denon/Pioneer/Yamaha AVR gear.
I disagree with the premise that better quality manufacturers design goals are to lure you in, then some magic switch goes off to produce sound that is intentionally fatiguing.
But it's a great idea that I'm sure the low-end sales guys would love.
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Yup, it's a bloody conspiracy, for sure. It's amazing that you figured it out. Congrats!
What do you plan to do next?
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Yes, all of that is true. Stop spending money on hi-fi equipment and go home.
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@johnk @kenjit
You really shouldn’t be so paranoid, however, I have it on excellent authority that someone is out to take advantage of you!
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Why would I buy additional equipment from a company that sold me fatiguing gear? I don’t know about you, but if I needed to replace gear that I found to be fatiguing I would eliminate that manufacturer from consideration. So remind me again why we are intentionally being sold fatiguing equipment?
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johnk
... why are so many upgrading fairly new gear that’s fully working? ...
Some people enjoy swapping equipment around. It's not my thing, but it doesn't concern me that others enjoy it. I think it mostly a stereotype, though. Most audiophiles I've known tend to keep their gear for a long time.
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A friend from Germany made the same comment (he owns an audio store) amazing how Americans swap gear so much. I am quite happy with my current gear.
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No idea what you are talking about. You assume people must constantly ripping and replacing gear if they are considered an “audiophile”. I’ve never done this because I’m very careful about my purchases and their synergy in my system. I’ve never bought “fatiguing” gear.
Per usual, kenjit is talking out of his butt. Imagine that!
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Kenjit. ---- "CD players from the 70s......."
Not where I grew up. About 1984 was my first CD player that was a practical commercial available unit. Technics
Lawrence From MI
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Changes in technology are moving very quickly compared to the past. Manufacturers might be competing to make upgraded equipment at a reasonable cost rather than a build quality that will last many years. Especially if what is being made today will be outdated in a few years. Also service/repair costs seem to be increasing at a higher rate, which would favor buying something new instead of fixing on old item. So again, the focus might not be on longevity. We also live in a throw away society…not everyone, but in general.
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According to Phillips and Sony, who jointly introduced the audio CD format, the CD was first marketed in November 1982 in Japan and in March 1983 in Europe. I remember picking up a Sony CD player in the Akihabara district in Tokyo in 1984, because I happened to be there on business and I knew the latest and greatest models were only in Japan at that time.
Would love to see one of the 1970’s models from Kenjit’s collection...
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Kenjit has never been one to let facts get in the way of the narrative.
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I am not so much on a quest to upgrade, I am just trying to assemble a system that begs to be listened to for long periods. I am almost at the end of the journey, just waiting for my preamp to be built.
I am careful where and what I spend $$$ on.
Most of the time I will only buy something I can audition at home , in my system.
It is not often that I replace something in a short period if time. My purchases tend to be something I would want to keep for a long time.
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I agree with others in saying systems that are hard to listento probably have more to do with the room than the gear.
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Cd players used to be built to last a lifetime and the ones that were built in the 70's are still sought after
Uh, @kenjit -
"The Sony CDP-101, released in 1982, was the world's first commercially released compact disc player."
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When I sold stereo equipment in the 1980's, we had a Cerwin Vega knock off (5 inch woofer, ported, etc) that was all boom and highs. Sounded great to the teenagers who came in for their first stereo and played the latest Alice Cooper, AC/DC or Led Zepplin. We did try and sell them good stuff, but the good stuff sounded bland to them and they never took our advice. I even had a friend who brought the knock offs instead of the Mirage speakers we had, which were damn good.
Today? I think there is a little, but damn, if you like screeching highs and big bottoms, so be it. I'm talking speakers here of course....
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I suspect the majority of audiophiles put together a system and run it until it breaks or some major life change intervenes. The people who post on sites like these with their constant equipment changing are probably in the minority of audiophiles. For instance, if you put together a good system in 1990, it still sounds great. Are there better systems now available, yes, but there were better systems available back in 1990. Some people think of the equipment side as a journey, while other stay at home.
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First CD player in our family was a $1300 Hitachi, 1985-ish. ~$3800 in todays money. Lasted over 10 years, then we lost track of it after gifting it to a friend.
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@kenjit Wrote:
Cd players used to be built to last a lifetime and the ones that were built in the 70's are still sought after for that reason.
That's funny! 🤣
Mike
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No listeners are swayed by audiophile products that initially impress esp during a 1hr demo then the buyer has regret as they realise that the sound that grabbed them grates after more extended listening.
They hope the product will burn in and sometimes the ears develop to accept the sound but most of the time the buyer listens with a what if...?
So not design of the product but more the frail human mind.
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@richdirector You are along the right track! The effect of being bored with the sound is nothing to do with the manufacturer, still less any intent to deceive. We simply get bored with the sound of our equipment. It familiarises. It doesn't excite us for long. No different from starting with a new woman. At the beginning, it's all thrills. But the excitement soon wears off. It's a human failing. Thank goodness it's way cheaper to replace hi-fi kit than wives.
@invalid Krell launched its first product, the KSA 100, in 1982, so it's 41 years old now. Yes, I have had my KRS 200s fully serviced, mainly replacing all capacitors. Still going strong. Very.
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bigtwin, you hit the nail on the head! I'll add to it; The only thing worse than not being able to find that elusive LP is finding it! The thrill is in the hunt.
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This topic reminds me of the time my granddaughter asked: "Grampa, why do you spend so much time working on your old cars?"
Me: "Because I'm always fixing things that aren't broken."
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@ghasley
"reputable companies who build serviceable gear are the ones around for the long haul"
Very good point. I found it interesting as my career/hobby in "consumer electronics" was winding down, just how many companies did not offer a service strategy whatsoever. It takes a huge investment to offer a parts inventory, training, service literature, not to mention paying technicians to fix your mistakes. Much more efficient to ship the customer a "B-stock" (refurbished) unit and credit them a "core charge" for their old one. When they run out of "B-stock" pieces to fulfill service requrements, then the item become disposable.
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Think about what happens when you upgrade. First impression is "wow, I can tell a difference". Second, you listen for hours and hours, thinking "I should have done this before". After a few days or a few weeks the novelty of improvement wears off and this new sound is now your standard or reference, if you will. So we look to upgrading in the future. And so on.......
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